Posted by Sandi Winton on June 13, 2008 at 9:55 AM
What do you say to someone when, after you've taken pictures at an event, and one of the event sponsors says, "i might have you email me some of your pictures to use. Mine didn't come out so great."??? I wasn't at this event because I was asked to be or paid to be. I went because I heard about it and thought it would be some neat photo's. I know these people aren't meaning that they would buy them, just want to use them for next year's promotion or on their brochures. And then someone else who is writing a book, took my business card that has one of my barns on it, said that he is going to scan it and put it into the book he is writing. I just don't know what to think or say to these people. Suggestions???
Sandi
In the first case I would politely let the sponsor know that either: One; 'I took these photos for my own use and have no plans to distribute them', or, two; 'If you are planning to use my photos you must purchase a license for their use.
In the second case, politely and forcefully advise this person that scanning your card violates your intellectual property rights and copyright. Also state that if the image is used without permission and payment of a license fee, you will take legal action.
The issue of scanning your business card is the one to watch and follow up on.
I hope this helps.
-PB
Posted by Toni Lankerd on June 13, 2008 at 2:08 PM
Sandi, in the case of the first person, you could email them small Jpegs with your copyright across the center of the image, then add a note saying that if they wish to use images for publication that they are available for licensing (for a nice fee, of course!). Maybe next time the sponsors won't be so quick to say what they did.
I respond that they can have them for the same rate I charge my client if it's a contract shoot, or other commercial buyers if I'm shooting on spec as you were.
If we're shooting the event participants in a promo package arrangement, we show the requesting parties a selection of images, then contact the subjects in the selected images for releases. Following that, normal commercial use fees apply for each photo.
Promo shooting is my wife's bag, but if sponsors are going to use photos of individuals for ads and such, they're going to need releases. We won't turn loose the images without subject permission and a signed release. If we're going to the trouble to collect those, we're by gosh going to get compensated for photo usage at fair commercial rates!
Contract shooting is more my bag and the most straight forward, arrangement-wise. One notable event (actually an all night industrial shoot with lots of subcontractors and their individual photographers on hand) really paid off. It was an outdoor shoot with wind and rain in the dark. All six other photographers experienced total gear failures while I was able to produce. That morning the subs watched as I reviewed images with the prime contractor (who was my client) and they asked her for photos. Bless her sweet little heart, she told them: "Hey, I've paid Hank $1800 for the job. If you want photos too, he has my permission to charge you the same. Otherwise, go whine to your own photographer!" You do the the math. I swiped 6 credit cards at $1800 a pop, then burned 6 sets of discs.
And yes, I bought her and her husband the best bottle of champagne I could find and treated them to a gourmet dinner.
Note that this (and many other on-the-spot financial transactions) would not have been possible if I wasn't set up to take credit cards. There's a lot to be said for "impulse" buying with cards.
As for this: "And then someone else who is writing a book, took my business card that has one of my barns on it, said that he is going to scan it and put it into the book he is writing." Thank them for their interest, but point out that the quality of such a scan isn't up to your standards, and that they'll have to use the card to contact you for a full-size version. At accepted commercial rates for book illustrations. If they get pushy, remind them that your commercial rates are much lower than legal fees in a copyright infringement suit.
Posted by Basil Greber on June 13, 2008 at 6:12 PM
My gut feeling would say that if they are earning money with the event, and want to use it for promotional use, you deserve compensation. After all, they can't expect you to deliver something for free for them to make money.
However, I wonder what the law says about you taking pictures of an event you (apparently) didn't sponsor or organize. I really don't know. Maybe you are, strictly following the law, not entitled to make photos of the event, or sell them (particularly if it was a private event). Just wondering.
About your business card - I'd say that's a flat out intellectual property violation.
Sandi, Preston has given you perfect advice on point, though I would not mention legal action.
However, the copyright of every photo you capture belongs to you upon capture of the image, and unless you've already agreed to let the organizers of the event use your photos, it's a bit cheeky of them to approach you and ask for free use of images. No different asking a surgeon for a free appendix removal, an artist for a free painting or a plumber for free installation of a water heater.
Quite likely, especially if it's a small event with organizers who are not sophisticated as far as photo rights/uses go, what you tell them in response would be their first education on the matter, so I'd be tactful and gentle but leave no doubt as to the fact that you own the photos. Something along the lines of "I'd be happy to e-mail you a selection of low-resolution images suitable for viewing on the computer, and if you decide you'd like to use them in any way, whether for promotion or advertising on the Web or in print, you can sure contact me and we'll discuss fees for licensing." If you do e-mail them some images, the ones you send them should have your copyright watermarked prominently over the image and the text of the e-mail should reiterate that any use of the images requires a licensing agreement.
Same thing with the barn scanner person. Could be they just don't know the ins and outs.
How you educate potential clients -- by that I mean your manner in addressing them -- will go a long way toward determining whether they become clients or not. Polite, friendly, nice smile, with just a glimpse of the iron underneath, is the way to go. The former characteristics are for the uneducated. Plenty of them around. The iron fist within the kid glove is for those who know better but still want something for nothing. Lots of those folks around, too.
And as Hank said, if your images include people, you must get a model release to protect yourself against a potential suit before you license their use for any profit-gathering. If you sell them to a newspaper or magazine, that's editorial use, and no release is needed. For any other type of use, the release is needed for your own protection.
Another consideration is your level of popularity/exposure. If you're just starting out within a venue that you hope will become your professional bread and butter (say, dog shows), it may be in your best interest to allow use of images for free, particularly those used prominently and seen by thousands, like on a popular Web site. But always with your photo credit or a credit/link pointing people to your Web site, and always subject to a contract (even an e-mail exchange sometimes is good enough documentation for that type of arrangement). Once you shoot several events and become a familiar face within that world and after people have seen your work, as long as that work is good enough clients will start to seek you out instead of the other way around.
Posted by Sandi Winton on June 13, 2008 at 7:07 PM
Ok. Thanks all of you for your input. That's helpful. I'll see how it goes. Thanks Again!
I've got to sign back up briefly to admit I was a bit grumpy when I wrote my resonse Sandi- not at you, but at folks that appear to try to take advantage. Okay, I admit it. I was really hungry and the green chili stew I was cooking had permeated the house with fantastic smells, but dinner was still a while off. The tummy is full now, and I'm warm all over.
Back to the grumpy part. There's always a fine line you have to walk in rebuffing or redirecting such offers. Many, many folks simply don't know any better. But if you treat them like they're trying to cheat you, they're going to be at least embarrassed and maybe hurt, and the whole thing will disappear into the past with no happiness for anyone. But if you can handle it without embarrassing or angering honest (but inexperienced) folks, you'll come away with new friends, credited use of your images and jingle in your pockets. I find it best usually to suggest getting together at a later date and try to set up an appointment. At that point you can be well prepared before starting the conversation and you'll be more likely to pull it off, especially if you don't do it in front of their friends or clients.
If they're not honest and are trying to take advantage of you, drop something and step on their foot when you bend over to pick it up.
Posted by Sandi Winton on June 14, 2008 at 8:24 AM
Thanks Hank! You're funny! I like the step on their foot part. Honetly, I don't think the scanning card guy has a clue about stuff like this and the other person is a great girl, but maybe isn't taking me seriously as a photographer. It's a small town and I think they have me down as a hobbiest maybe. I don't know. But, I just don't want to get this type of stuff started. Once I start doing things like this, it will always be expected.
I hadn't had my second cup of coffee when I wrote my reply, so, like Hank, I came off a bit on the defensive side. I have strong feelings regarding so many people/organizations trying to get something for nothing, so I tend to be pretty pointed.
Steve and Hank are right on the money regarding educating potential clients and creating a win-win situation. I learned something, here. Thanks!
Hey Sandi, I find that same thing happen to me too. I show up anywhere with a camera, people notice it, and the next day they turn around to me to get a copy of my pictures, because theirs probably didn't turn out the way they wanted to, or forgot to put in the memory card while taking pictures, etc. etc.
Usually they don't take your photography seriously. Nor are they trying to make money off your pictures.
In such cases, I give them only those photographs in which they themselves appear, for free. The rest stay with me; printed versions of which are always available for a fee.
Hank... I have to ask... .you stated "Note that this (and many other on-the-spot financial transactions) would not have been possible if I wasn't set up to take credit cards. There's a lot to be said for "impulse" buying with cards"
What are you using.. .and what is the fee for this usage?
I'll have to double check with my wife (she's the bookie and accountant for our business). She's pretty careful, so I'm sure it's competitive. I can tell you that we don't accept Amex. No-no-no-no-no-no-no-no!!!! It's probably cost us all of two sales in the last ten years from people who didn't have anything else. From what we see, almost no one uses it any more and their fees (both to merchants and to customers- talk about double dipping!) are off the charts.
Sorry to be so slow to get back to your question, Kevin.
We're using Nova/Encompass and their rate is more or less a composite from various card companies and plans. Some are fixed rate, some give discounts or kickbacks and other schemes are floating around. We weighed the composition of our typical clientelle and card transactions, and for our mix they came out best at a little under 3% overall. A different location with more reliance on card companies that charged more or less would change that. I will point out however, that at their insistence we just upgraded our card reader, and the new one set us back $350. Ouch.
ouch.... Im looking for something that will allow me to do only a few per month (if Im lucky). I am just starting out... and I dont really expect alot of sales... but Id rather be safe than sorry.
As it stands right now... I do my CC transactions via PayPal when someone orders one of my nature prints. However I am slowly moving into the people photography buisness (I think I have lost my mind)... and I'd like to have something to get those impulse buys. Wheither its at our local county fair or elsewhere.
What can you advise for this? I guess I could always write down the CC info and then charge it thru PayPal when I get back... but Id hate to do that if Im selling prints at the fair.
Somewhere here on NPN recently, someone posted about a card reader/service that can run via a link with your cell phone, and if I recall correctly there was an option for smaller sales volumes. I can't remember what or where it was posted, but I'll check back while you do the same. It's attractive to me because of our remote sales, and I'd make brownie points with my wife if it turned out to be viable for our needs. We're using an old fashioned card-swiper in locations away from our studio, but on return the #'s all have to be fed into the system manually via the card reader.
In normal operations we probably don't average more than 40 credit card transactions a month, but my wife also does events. Consider that she recently shot a dance production combining two studios for a total of over 250 kids over two evenings. That's a whole mess of individual and group shots, sometimes scene by scene, totalling over 500 sittings and charges. At the end of it all she had to process almost 600 transactions, a little over half of which were credit cards. That's just a whole lot of time sitting in front of the credit card reader!
I'm not whining Steve! I'm trying to sound sympathetic.... Domestic harmony, donchaknow!!!
She really does put in some wild times at her events. Three employees doing nothing but handling people and records (and collecting money, of course), while she's busy taking the photos. Then there's the morning after--- getting the images and order forms assembled and shipped to the lab. And biggest job of all, a few days later these huge boxes of print packages come back and she has to log them in, check for accuracy, package and distribute. Yeah, she can take in as much as $1.5k per shooting hour, but by the time she adds time to finish the job, the hourly wage goes way, way down. If I can eliminate the after-the-fact credit card processing, I'm going to be a big hero.
Discussion
18 repliesSandi
In the first case I would politely let the sponsor know that either: One; 'I took these photos for my own use and have no plans to distribute them', or, two; 'If you are planning to use my photos you must purchase a license for their use.
In the second case, politely and forcefully advise this person that scanning your card violates your intellectual property rights and copyright. Also state that if the image is used without permission and payment of a license fee, you will take legal action.
The issue of scanning your business card is the one to watch and follow up on.
I hope this helps.
-PB
If we're shooting the event participants in a promo package arrangement, we show the requesting parties a selection of images, then contact the subjects in the selected images for releases. Following that, normal commercial use fees apply for each photo.
Promo shooting is my wife's bag, but if sponsors are going to use photos of individuals for ads and such, they're going to need releases. We won't turn loose the images without subject permission and a signed release. If we're going to the trouble to collect those, we're by gosh going to get compensated for photo usage at fair commercial rates!
Contract shooting is more my bag and the most straight forward, arrangement-wise. One notable event (actually an all night industrial shoot with lots of subcontractors and their individual photographers on hand) really paid off. It was an outdoor shoot with wind and rain in the dark. All six other photographers experienced total gear failures while I was able to produce. That morning the subs watched as I reviewed images with the prime contractor (who was my client) and they asked her for photos. Bless her sweet little heart, she told them: "Hey, I've paid Hank $1800 for the job. If you want photos too, he has my permission to charge you the same. Otherwise, go whine to your own photographer!" You do the the math. I swiped 6 credit cards at $1800 a pop, then burned 6 sets of discs.
And yes, I bought her and her husband the best bottle of champagne I could find and treated them to a gourmet dinner.
Note that this (and many other on-the-spot financial transactions) would not have been possible if I wasn't set up to take credit cards. There's a lot to be said for "impulse" buying with cards.
As for this: "And then someone else who is writing a book, took my business card that has one of my barns on it, said that he is going to scan it and put it into the book he is writing." Thank them for their interest, but point out that the quality of such a scan isn't up to your standards, and that they'll have to use the card to contact you for a full-size version. At accepted commercial rates for book illustrations. If they get pushy, remind them that your commercial rates are much lower than legal fees in a copyright infringement suit.
However, I wonder what the law says about you taking pictures of an event you (apparently) didn't sponsor or organize. I really don't know. Maybe you are, strictly following the law, not entitled to make photos of the event, or sell them (particularly if it was a private event). Just wondering.
About your business card - I'd say that's a flat out intellectual property violation.
Basil
However, the copyright of every photo you capture belongs to you upon capture of the image, and unless you've already agreed to let the organizers of the event use your photos, it's a bit cheeky of them to approach you and ask for free use of images. No different asking a surgeon for a free appendix removal, an artist for a free painting or a plumber for free installation of a water heater.
Quite likely, especially if it's a small event with organizers who are not sophisticated as far as photo rights/uses go, what you tell them in response would be their first education on the matter, so I'd be tactful and gentle but leave no doubt as to the fact that you own the photos. Something along the lines of "I'd be happy to e-mail you a selection of low-resolution images suitable for viewing on the computer, and if you decide you'd like to use them in any way, whether for promotion or advertising on the Web or in print, you can sure contact me and we'll discuss fees for licensing." If you do e-mail them some images, the ones you send them should have your copyright watermarked prominently over the image and the text of the e-mail should reiterate that any use of the images requires a licensing agreement.
Same thing with the barn scanner person. Could be they just don't know the ins and outs.
How you educate potential clients -- by that I mean your manner in addressing them -- will go a long way toward determining whether they become clients or not. Polite, friendly, nice smile, with just a glimpse of the iron underneath, is the way to go. The former characteristics are for the uneducated. Plenty of them around. The iron fist within the kid glove is for those who know better but still want something for nothing. Lots of those folks around, too.
And as Hank said, if your images include people, you must get a model release to protect yourself against a potential suit before you license their use for any profit-gathering. If you sell them to a newspaper or magazine, that's editorial use, and no release is needed. For any other type of use, the release is needed for your own protection.
Another consideration is your level of popularity/exposure. If you're just starting out within a venue that you hope will become your professional bread and butter (say, dog shows), it may be in your best interest to allow use of images for free, particularly those used prominently and seen by thousands, like on a popular Web site. But always with your photo credit or a credit/link pointing people to your Web site, and always subject to a contract (even an e-mail exchange sometimes is good enough documentation for that type of arrangement). Once you shoot several events and become a familiar face within that world and after people have seen your work, as long as that work is good enough clients will start to seek you out instead of the other way around.
Back to the grumpy part. There's always a fine line you have to walk in rebuffing or redirecting such offers. Many, many folks simply don't know any better. But if you treat them like they're trying to cheat you, they're going to be at least embarrassed and maybe hurt, and the whole thing will disappear into the past with no happiness for anyone. But if you can handle it without embarrassing or angering honest (but inexperienced) folks, you'll come away with new friends, credited use of your images and jingle in your pockets. I find it best usually to suggest getting together at a later date and try to set up an appointment. At that point you can be well prepared before starting the conversation and you'll be more likely to pull it off, especially if you don't do it in front of their friends or clients.
If they're not honest and are trying to take advantage of you, drop something and step on their foot when you bend over to pick it up.
Steve and Hank are right on the money regarding educating potential clients and creating a win-win situation. I learned something, here. Thanks!
Best of luck to you, Sandy!
-PB
You are SO RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! And as you also seem to realilze, the quickest way to a pro rep is being professional. Well done!
Usually they don't take your photography seriously. Nor are they trying to make money off your pictures.
In such cases, I give them only those photographs in which they themselves appear, for free. The rest stay with me; printed versions of which are always available for a fee.
What are you using.. .and what is the fee for this usage?
We're using Nova/Encompass and their rate is more or less a composite from various card companies and plans. Some are fixed rate, some give discounts or kickbacks and other schemes are floating around. We weighed the composition of our typical clientelle and card transactions, and for our mix they came out best at a little under 3% overall. A different location with more reliance on card companies that charged more or less would change that. I will point out however, that at their insistence we just upgraded our card reader, and the new one set us back $350. Ouch.
As it stands right now... I do my CC transactions via PayPal when someone orders one of my nature prints. However I am slowly moving into the people photography buisness (I think I have lost my mind)... and I'd like to have something to get those impulse buys. Wheither its at our local county fair or elsewhere.
What can you advise for this? I guess I could always write down the CC info and then charge it thru PayPal when I get back... but Id hate to do that if Im selling prints at the fair.
In normal operations we probably don't average more than 40 credit card transactions a month, but my wife also does events. Consider that she recently shot a dance production combining two studios for a total of over 250 kids over two evenings. That's a whole mess of individual and group shots, sometimes scene by scene, totalling over 500 sittings and charges. At the end of it all she had to process almost 600 transactions, a little over half of which were credit cards. That's just a whole lot of time sitting in front of the credit card reader!
She really does put in some wild times at her events. Three employees doing nothing but handling people and records (and collecting money, of course), while she's busy taking the photos. Then there's the morning after--- getting the images and order forms assembled and shipped to the lab. And biggest job of all, a few days later these huge boxes of print packages come back and she has to log them in, check for accuracy, package and distribute. Yeah, she can take in as much as $1.5k per shooting hour, but by the time she adds time to finish the job, the hourly wage goes way, way down. If I can eliminate the after-the-fact credit card processing, I'm going to be a big hero.