Bear with me, because I mean it in the nicest possible way...but...does anybody ever think critiques out here are too nice at times?
Maybe it's just because I think we're ALL our own worst critics, but I post a shot, I see the flaws. Seems like there's a lot of commenting and not as much critiquing.
Just curious what others thought. When I first came out here a few years ago, I was a newbie at photography, and I know posting photos out here and getting critiques, as well as looking at other photos, really helped my photography. I also know people try to take it easy on new participants, but for me it was a lot easier to improve my photography as I got honest critiques.
I think I may have mentioned this a year or two ago. I think the critiques people do put out here are quite constructive, unlike what you may find on some other sites. And I really do appreciate those who give constructive critiques.
Here we go again. To get honest, constructive critiques, you need to ask for them in your post, otherwise you will get comments. Also don't forget to add the equipment you use for the post. This also matters as to how many and how well someone critiques your image. At least this is what many people indicate. Also many on this site are new to photography, even picking up a camera in the last 6 months before being born a professional photographer. Many just cannot give a critique, and as many have said before, if you can't give a critique, at least leave something that you like or dislike about an image. So I feel it is a cultural forum thing. And don't even start on the stick up the birds a**, or the birds hidden in the bush debate, that does decide the critique ratio.
Just my .04, since my opinion is twice as valuable as yours.
Here's one thought on the subject. I seldom make it over to Avian, but the participation in ESS has grown significantly over the past couple of years, which introduces time pressure into the equation as there are many more images to view and respond to making it hard to give an indepth critique to each one. I agree with Jim that the best way to get a more indepth critique is to boldly request it at the beginning of your post. Just my thoughts...
What are the forums called out here? Photo critique forums, under the drop-down menu. A critique is implied, I always assumed. Maybe it's a broader topic then...why post, if constructive comments aren't wanted?
As for your comments in your last sentence...No, depending upon how you phrase it, I don't think those kinds of comments are all that helpful. HOWEVER...you can be constructive in your criticism, even for things such as that.
May sound simple once you've been doing photography for a longer period of time, but when I first started, I know I focused more on the techs of the bird itself, and didn't worry as much about background, etc. So...let's say there's an OOF tree in the background that cuts right through the bird and detracts from the shot. I may not find it too useful to hear "Wish that tree wasn't there"...but...what I WOULD find useful is something like "To avoid gettng the tree in that position, take a step to the left or right next time".
Simple, but to me it adds another component to the mental "checklist" we all go through as we're composing a shot. I know I've added a lot of these little mental "checks" that I now consider as I'm composing a shot, largely because of constructive comments I've gotten out here on NPN.
Posted by Basil Greber on June 13, 2008 at 5:57 PM
I agree with you that sometimes critique can be more "useful" than an enthusiastic comment. Sometimes, I too wonder whether people are being too nice. So, if I am specifically looking for comments on a certain element, I usually ask for it.
That being said, I recently got some very helpful feedback on a shot I posted (I think it was Pete D. who made the most in-depth suggestions - thanks! ).
I have been actively participating in the Avian forum for about four months and I have certain thoughts on how I comment on images and I am not really sure they are what people expect.
In this four month period it has become quite clear to me that some of the individuals posting are very accomplished photographers. You would be included in this list. I have seen a number of your posts, I have checked out your website and I feel you work is first rate.
Here is where I may be misguided. When I view one of your posts for example, my thought process tells me that you are quite aware of the technical aspects of the image you have posted (exposure, contrast, saturation, etc.) and I typically would only comment on the aesthetics of the image. I think we all have certain images that are not technically perfect but feel the image is aesthetically pleasing enough to warrant posting.
On the other hand if it is an individual that is fairly new to photography I may comment on the technical aspects, as well as the aesthetics.
I have often wondered if this is the correct approach or if I should just comment consisitently no matter who is posting the image.
As for myself, I would prefer comments on both the techs and aesthetics. I have alot to learn.
I agree Matt, I'd appreciate comments on both techs and aesthetics. There are a lot of technical perfect images that may lack aesthetic quality.
As for level of photographer, I don't think anybody ever reaches a stage where technical aspects could be improved as well. I think everyone continually learns as they mature as photographers, and would never want to reach a stage where I think I don't need to improve techically.
Emailing other members to ask for an honest, "hard hitting" critique is another option. Some people take offense at even mild citiques, others want a full dose - and it is at times difficult to determine without some input in the orignal post. I think many of the "nicer" comments are put that way to lessen the risk of offending the poster.
Critiques are too "soft" sometimes, I agree. I sometimes really have to push my self to write what I do not like in a photograph. Sometimes I really feel bad and the mouse-click to make the comment final means overcoming a barrier...
There are some images here that are technically excellent, but "just" a variation of something done countless times before. As one once has stated: "The attempt at perfecting a certain image" (or something in that sense). The result is always a beautiful image, and I most of the time I comment and critique, sometimes I don't. This is not because I would not have anything to say, but it would not fit to the 40 comments of positive praise these images get.
That's not to say that I am not honest. When I say its an excellent image, then I think it is an excellent image...
And I do not want to sound arrogant or cynic - something we europeans are from time to time.
Then I am far from perfect with the english language - and expressing my throughts in a positive and respectful way is harder in a foreign language - subtleties and nuances are lost - it comes across more raw and direct.
The best way to get honest critique is to ask explicitly for it - by already adressing some issues you do not like about your image or what you think might be a "problem" for viewers. By this participants here are much more encouraged to make their point. They will know that their honest words will not shatter the world of the respective photographers since the poster obviously already knows that something is "wrong" with his image, and only wants confirmation.
-Dietrich
As has been stated many times, both in the NPN galleries and in our Art of Image Critique articles, much of the responsibility rests with the person posting the photo. If you do not explicitly ask for a "no holds barred" critique, you may not get one - only because those providing the comments do not wish to offend the you. Thanks again to Dietrich for re-emphasizng this important point.
At the same time, the "nice photo" type of comment is not always an entirely bad thing, even if not wholly deserved. As humans (I think we're all human here), positive encouragement plays an important role too. The first drawings we scribbled with crayons as young children were praised by our parents. Imagine if mom said "that looks nothing like me!" Sure, as adults we need to take criticism in a constructive way, but some encouragment is just as important.
Finally, one last very important point - critiques are nothing more than opinions. One person's "perfect photo" is another's "just OK" photo. It is up to the person posting the photo to interpret all critiques in a dispassionate fashion and decide which are most meaningful to them.
A critique put in a nice and gentle way works better as long as the message is put across. There are many reasons why there are fewer critiques than kudos. That could be a good thing. It would be kind of disconcerting to have a dozen critiques for a single photo.
I do not limit learning from critiques from my own images I post here alone. I go through many images posted here and gather the little gems of critiques as I find them. If another NPN er gets a valuable tip then by reading of it and comparing it with his photo I benefit as well.
I don't care how experienced you are, sometimes you are emotionally attached to the image and completely overlook the imperfections until someone else tells you. We all can benefit from an honest opinion as to perfections and imperfections of an image. If it deserves high praise, give it. If you see a way to do it differently, also state that. That way, the poster can consider your honest and well intended opinion.
I think it's human nature; people don't want to risk offending others. I think it's unfortunate that anyone participating in a "critique" forum would be reluctant to give, or offended to receive, an honest, constructive evaluation of an image, but I think that's all too often the case here.
Regarding the time issue - I agree that it can be very time-consuming to provide a thoughtful critique. And while it may be impossible to replace ten "nice shot" comments with ten thoughtful critiques, an alternative might be to start by working in one or two critiques, and using whatever time remains to offer up the more generic comments.
On a side note, I've often wondered about the value of displaying the topic/reply count for members. If instead, there was a "rate this critique" feature where our peers could rate another person's critique, we could replace or supplement those topic/reply counts (quantity) with a critique rating (quality). You've got to reward the behavior you're trying to encourage!
I once said that internet critique forums were simply a means to cast your pearls before the maximum number of swine with the minimum effort. That may be so, but, perhaps, by counting pearls (both images and critiques) instead of just counting pigs, we can learn more from the exercise.
Discussion
14 repliesMaybe it's just because I think we're ALL our own worst critics, but I post a shot, I see the flaws. Seems like there's a lot of commenting and not as much critiquing.
Just curious what others thought. When I first came out here a few years ago, I was a newbie at photography, and I know posting photos out here and getting critiques, as well as looking at other photos, really helped my photography. I also know people try to take it easy on new participants, but for me it was a lot easier to improve my photography as I got honest critiques.
I think I may have mentioned this a year or two ago. I think the critiques people do put out here are quite constructive, unlike what you may find on some other sites. And I really do appreciate those who give constructive critiques.
Just my two cents...
Just my .04, since my opinion is twice as valuable as yours.
What are the forums called out here? Photo critique forums, under the drop-down menu. A critique is implied, I always assumed. Maybe it's a broader topic then...why post, if constructive comments aren't wanted?
As for your comments in your last sentence...No, depending upon how you phrase it, I don't think those kinds of comments are all that helpful. HOWEVER...you can be constructive in your criticism, even for things such as that.
May sound simple once you've been doing photography for a longer period of time, but when I first started, I know I focused more on the techs of the bird itself, and didn't worry as much about background, etc. So...let's say there's an OOF tree in the background that cuts right through the bird and detracts from the shot. I may not find it too useful to hear "Wish that tree wasn't there"...but...what I WOULD find useful is something like "To avoid gettng the tree in that position, take a step to the left or right next time".
Simple, but to me it adds another component to the mental "checklist" we all go through as we're composing a shot. I know I've added a lot of these little mental "checks" that I now consider as I'm composing a shot, largely because of constructive comments I've gotten out here on NPN.
That being said, I recently got some very helpful feedback on a shot I posted (I think it was Pete D. who made the most in-depth suggestions - thanks!
Basil
I have been actively participating in the Avian forum for about four months and I have certain thoughts on how I comment on images and I am not really sure they are what people expect.
In this four month period it has become quite clear to me that some of the individuals posting are very accomplished photographers. You would be included in this list. I have seen a number of your posts, I have checked out your website and I feel you work is first rate.
Here is where I may be misguided. When I view one of your posts for example, my thought process tells me that you are quite aware of the technical aspects of the image you have posted (exposure, contrast, saturation, etc.) and I typically would only comment on the aesthetics of the image. I think we all have certain images that are not technically perfect but feel the image is aesthetically pleasing enough to warrant posting.
On the other hand if it is an individual that is fairly new to photography I may comment on the technical aspects, as well as the aesthetics.
I have often wondered if this is the correct approach or if I should just comment consisitently no matter who is posting the image.
As for myself, I would prefer comments on both the techs and aesthetics. I have alot to learn.
I am curious what you and others think.
As for level of photographer, I don't think anybody ever reaches a stage where technical aspects could be improved as well. I think everyone continually learns as they mature as photographers, and would never want to reach a stage where I think I don't need to improve techically.
There are some images here that are technically excellent, but "just" a variation of something done countless times before. As one once has stated: "The attempt at perfecting a certain image" (or something in that sense). The result is always a beautiful image, and I most of the time I comment and critique, sometimes I don't. This is not because I would not have anything to say, but it would not fit to the 40 comments of positive praise these images get.
That's not to say that I am not honest. When I say its an excellent image, then I think it is an excellent image...
And I do not want to sound arrogant or cynic - something we europeans are from time to time.
Then I am far from perfect with the english language - and expressing my throughts in a positive and respectful way is harder in a foreign language - subtleties and nuances are lost - it comes across more raw and direct.
The best way to get honest critique is to ask explicitly for it - by already adressing some issues you do not like about your image or what you think might be a "problem" for viewers. By this participants here are much more encouraged to make their point. They will know that their honest words will not shatter the world of the respective photographers since the poster obviously already knows that something is "wrong" with his image, and only wants confirmation.
-Dietrich
As has been stated many times, both in the NPN galleries and in our Art of Image Critique articles, much of the responsibility rests with the person posting the photo. If you do not explicitly ask for a "no holds barred" critique, you may not get one - only because those providing the comments do not wish to offend the you. Thanks again to Dietrich for re-emphasizng this important point.
At the same time, the "nice photo" type of comment is not always an entirely bad thing, even if not wholly deserved. As humans (I think we're all human here), positive encouragement plays an important role too. The first drawings we scribbled with crayons as young children were praised by our parents. Imagine if mom said "that looks nothing like me!" Sure, as adults we need to take criticism in a constructive way, but some encouragment is just as important.
Finally, one last very important point - critiques are nothing more than opinions. One person's "perfect photo" is another's "just OK" photo. It is up to the person posting the photo to interpret all critiques in a dispassionate fashion and decide which are most meaningful to them.
I do not limit learning from critiques from my own images I post here alone. I go through many images posted here and gather the little gems of critiques as I find them. If another NPN er gets a valuable tip then by reading of it and comparing it with his photo I benefit as well.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Regarding the time issue - I agree that it can be very time-consuming to provide a thoughtful critique. And while it may be impossible to replace ten "nice shot" comments with ten thoughtful critiques, an alternative might be to start by working in one or two critiques, and using whatever time remains to offer up the more generic comments.
On a side note, I've often wondered about the value of displaying the topic/reply count for members. If instead, there was a "rate this critique" feature where our peers could rate another person's critique, we could replace or supplement those topic/reply counts (quantity) with a critique rating (quality). You've got to reward the behavior you're trying to encourage!
I once said that internet critique forums were simply a means to cast your pearls before the maximum number of swine with the minimum effort. That may be so, but, perhaps, by counting pearls (both images and critiques) instead of just counting pigs, we can learn more from the exercise.
Pete D.