Posted by Tom Nevesely on July 2, 2008 at 11:25 AM
A question to all of the 4x6 inch ND Grad filter users out there...
Currently I use a Cokin P holder, 85mm Hitech ND Grad filters and a Singh-Ray Sprocket polarizer. I like it very much but unfortunately this combo vignettes pretty badly on my Canon 17-40mm from bellow 22mm or so. I usually don't even try to use filters with this lens even though I'd really like to for situations when my 24mm just isn't wide enough.
This weekend I noticed that some of my most used ND Grads are becoming somewhat scratched and I will need to start thinking about replacing. I'm thinking about getting 4x6 inch Lee filters (Singh-Ray are way too expensive for me) but I don't know what to do about the polarizer. Singh-Ray doesn't seem to have a large sprocket polarizer. Lee sells one for their system but it's $500+. I also saw that Lee makes an adapter that would allow me to use a regular scree on 105mm polarizer in their holder and I could get a B+W filter for about $250.
So anyways, I'm just curious how you all have dealt with this situation.
Posted by Mark Stahlke on July 2, 2008 at 12:57 PM
I have the 4x6 Lee system including two different polarizers. Here are my thoughts.
Lee's adapter for a 105mm screw-on filter bolts on to the end of the Lee filter holder. This pushes the polarizer so far out from the lens that you may experience vignetting even with a 105mm filter. I was disappointed with that set up.
I really like Lee's 4x4 glass polarizer. I use the linear version with manual focus cameras, it's also available as a circular for AF cameras. I know it seems odd to use a square filter that needs to be rotated. I was dubious about that myself but I let Jeff at Badger Graphic talk me into it anyway. I find that rotating the polarizer 90 degrees usually gives me what I want. This is rarely 100% polarization but it's enough. For my own work, I like a little less than maximum polarization.
I haven't tried adapting the material for on-camera use, but we use various polarizing gels from this page in our studio and especially for covering windows on location shoots. Seems to me that there's great potential for ordering a sheet, then cutting it to any size you need. You could get a whole lot of them from a single sheet, much less from the rolls we buy. It wouldn't take much to fasion a cardboard holder and tape the gel to it for handholding over your setup.
I have the Lee 4 x 6 grads with Lee filter holder and a Sing Ray sprocket warming polarizer for the Cokin P. The Cokin P holder fits into the Lee holder backwards so I can grad and polarize but i don't know the limit of focal length when occurs. My wide angle is Nikon 17 55 on D2Xs and this filter concoction works OK. Tere might be a way to burcher the Cokin holder so that the polarizer sits closer to the grad. Anyhow, I'm very pleased with the Lee grads and would recommend them. If only I could figure out where I stashed my polarizer I'd be much happier.
Posted by Brad Kargus on July 11, 2008 at 12:55 AM
Hi Tom,
I meant to reply sooner with a few thoughts of my own but I haven't been able to participate much lately.
As you have seen, I have the 5D and 17-40, as well. I am in the process of revamping my filter setup. I am assuming that you generally prefer a filter holder as opposed to hand-holding? That's my preference, anyway, because lately I've been experimenting a lot with long exposures after sunset and hand-holding for up to half an hour doesn't really work for me.
For a while, my most common setup was a B+W screw-in polarizer with Cokin x-pro holder added in front. With this, I am limited to 21mm without vignetting. Personally, I rarely feel the need to go wider than this but occasionally, it would be nice. As you probably already know, to go right to 17mm, you can only really use a single screw-in filter OR a filter holder. I still have a P-holder (wide-angle version) but I only used that once on the 17-40 before relegating the P for use with not-so-wide lenses.
I have picked up the Lee holder with the 1-2-3-stop soft Lee grads (purchased as a set - nice way to save a bit of money if you want all 3). I wanted to go with a 100x150mm setup because it seems to offer the greatest flexibility - it's big enough for wide angle use and I can add filters from Singh Ray that Lee doesn't cover. I have ordered a Singh Ray 4-stop soft and may get the 5-stop soft, as well. I'm trying to avoid stacking because of colour casts in the sky not reflected in water and the high number of water shots I take. Yes, the high quality grads are still prone to the stacking colour cast, although not as much.
The wide adaptor rings for the Lee holder definitely help with vignetting because they actually allow the holder to sit back a bit over the end of the lens (or screw-in filter, or step-up ring).
I don't even want to know what it would cost for custom grads (eg. >3 stops) for the x-pro size.
The x-pro grads are really meant for super super wide angle, as in 14-17mm or even 12mm like with the Sigma 12-24. At 130x170mm, the gradation is spead out too far vertically (even at 21-24mm) and a 3-stop soft behaves more like a 2-stop soft which often required me to stack where one grad should have been enough. Ironically, the hard-stops were gradual enough to occasionally make good soft stops depending on how a mountain fit into the frame .
I'm liking Mark's above suggestion for the square drop-in polarizer and this is what I will probably do for my own set-up. Obviously, I won't be able to fine tune the polarization but I think I could live with that based on how I currently use a pol.
It is unlikely that I will ever buy many more screw-in filters although I did get the Singh-Ray Vari-ND. From the little that I've been able to experiment with it so far, I think it's going to be a good, interesting piece of kit. Now, if I can only get away from wide angle for awhile ...
Hope this was helpful.
Posted by Tom Nevesely on July 11, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Thanks for the replies everyone. I don't need to buy the filters quite yet so I still have time to consider my options. Right now, I'm leaning towards the square polarizer option. Ideally, what I'd like is for Singh-Ray to make a sproket type polarizer for the larger Lee Holder.
Discussion
5 repliesCurrently I use a Cokin P holder, 85mm Hitech ND Grad filters and a Singh-Ray Sprocket polarizer. I like it very much but unfortunately this combo vignettes pretty badly on my Canon 17-40mm from bellow 22mm or so. I usually don't even try to use filters with this lens even though I'd really like to for situations when my 24mm just isn't wide enough.
This weekend I noticed that some of my most used ND Grads are becoming somewhat scratched and I will need to start thinking about replacing. I'm thinking about getting 4x6 inch Lee filters (Singh-Ray are way too expensive for me) but I don't know what to do about the polarizer. Singh-Ray doesn't seem to have a large sprocket polarizer. Lee sells one for their system but it's $500+. I also saw that Lee makes an adapter that would allow me to use a regular scree on 105mm polarizer in their holder and I could get a B+W filter for about $250.
So anyways, I'm just curious how you all have dealt with this situation.
Lee's adapter for a 105mm screw-on filter bolts on to the end of the Lee filter holder. This pushes the polarizer so far out from the lens that you may experience vignetting even with a 105mm filter. I was disappointed with that set up.
I really like Lee's 4x4 glass polarizer. I use the linear version with manual focus cameras, it's also available as a circular for AF cameras. I know it seems odd to use a square filter that needs to be rotated. I was dubious about that myself but I let Jeff at Badger Graphic talk me into it anyway. I find that rotating the polarizer 90 degrees usually gives me what I want. This is rarely 100% polarization but it's enough. For my own work, I like a little less than maximum polarization.
Hope that helps.
I meant to reply sooner with a few thoughts of my own but I haven't been able to participate much lately.
As you have seen, I have the 5D and 17-40, as well. I am in the process of revamping my filter setup. I am assuming that you generally prefer a filter holder as opposed to hand-holding? That's my preference, anyway, because lately I've been experimenting a lot with long exposures after sunset and hand-holding for up to half an hour doesn't really work for me.
For a while, my most common setup was a B+W screw-in polarizer with Cokin x-pro holder added in front. With this, I am limited to 21mm without vignetting. Personally, I rarely feel the need to go wider than this but occasionally, it would be nice. As you probably already know, to go right to 17mm, you can only really use a single screw-in filter OR a filter holder. I still have a P-holder (wide-angle version) but I only used that once on the 17-40 before relegating the P for use with not-so-wide lenses.
I have picked up the Lee holder with the 1-2-3-stop soft Lee grads (purchased as a set - nice way to save a bit of money if you want all 3). I wanted to go with a 100x150mm setup because it seems to offer the greatest flexibility - it's big enough for wide angle use and I can add filters from Singh Ray that Lee doesn't cover. I have ordered a Singh Ray 4-stop soft and may get the 5-stop soft, as well. I'm trying to avoid stacking because of colour casts in the sky not reflected in water and the high number of water shots I take. Yes, the high quality grads are still prone to the stacking colour cast, although not as much.
The wide adaptor rings for the Lee holder definitely help with vignetting because they actually allow the holder to sit back a bit over the end of the lens (or screw-in filter, or step-up ring).
I don't even want to know what it would cost for custom grads (eg. >3 stops) for the x-pro size.
The x-pro grads are really meant for super super wide angle, as in 14-17mm or even 12mm like with the Sigma 12-24. At 130x170mm, the gradation is spead out too far vertically (even at 21-24mm) and a 3-stop soft behaves more like a 2-stop soft which often required me to stack where one grad should have been enough. Ironically, the hard-stops were gradual enough to occasionally make good soft stops depending on how a mountain fit into the frame
I'm liking Mark's above suggestion for the square drop-in polarizer and this is what I will probably do for my own set-up. Obviously, I won't be able to fine tune the polarization but I think I could live with that based on how I currently use a pol.
It is unlikely that I will ever buy many more screw-in filters although I did get the Singh-Ray Vari-ND. From the little that I've been able to experiment with it so far, I think it's going to be a good, interesting piece of kit. Now, if I can only get away from wide angle for awhile ...
Hope this was helpful.