I have been photographing Eastern Blubirds lately at a cemetery where birdlovers have put up nesting boxes. The birds are cautious but will continue to feed the young with photographers as close as 15 feet away.
This morning I returned to a box I had been shooting with another man the night before. There were two people there with tripods and cameras set up and they had erected a perch about 6 feet from the box. The birds were using the perch and all seemed happy.
I approached behind the two others and hand holding began to shoot while respecting their space and being careful not to disrespect their first come first served status. I might say that it is normal to share space if there is no fear of scaring away the subject.
Withinn a few seconds the male said to me "you know I do this for a living eh". To which I responded "I won't interfere with your shooting don't worry".
He continued by mentioning that it was his perch. And I responded by asking him if he thought it was private land. He then said well you can't use my perch and dismantled it.
He finally left in a huff and I stayed with another man who had happened along and had a great time.
This is a public place and I showed the people respect when I arrived and did not harm the situation in any way. I was astonished at the reaction.
Am I right? Am I missing something?
Opinions would be welcomed.
Rick T
I think you treated the situation with appropriate respect. It must have been some special perch -- he better not have caused such a fuss over a stick! If he does it for a living he should have a private location to shoot his bluebirds where he can do all the set-ups he likes. I do this for a living too but I don't go to the cemetery in Montreal which also has bluebirds in nesting boxes. It is much easier to use those that I have gained access to by politely asking private land owners over the years. Furthermore, if this guy is a pro, he should know how marginalized of a market songbird images are in general and how little sale value there is. Bottom line is that if you are trying to do a set-up in a public place you have to deal with the public! He should be so lucky to have the rest of the individuals he encounters to be as polite as you.
I guess I am sounding a lot like I am just telling you what you want to hear and I have been in that guy's situation before. However, one must have the common sense to know what really necessitates defending one's exclusivity in a pro market. I mean, come on, a bluebird on a stick with maybe a mealworm? This year my belted kingfisher set-up is on private property but in the past it was on public land. Nonetheless, in past years i still let many photogs in my blind for free and there are a few guys out there who have kingfishers on the same perch as me. I have still managed to sell kingfisher articles to 6 different mags in the past 18 months.
I also understand how any normal individual who thinks of themselves as polite and respectful would really be questioning themselves after such a confrontation. FWIW, I think you did the right thing.
He had a lot of nerve. You were in the right. A pro hears about a desirable situation in a public place and moves in with his/her own perch, but then pisses and moans when the people who have already been photographing there come in and photograph far enough away from him to respect his space? Dismantling his perch and stomping off in a huff would have brought a loud horse laugh from me. What a buffoon.
I've seen people like this before, and have been stuck shooting alongside them now and then. I back water for no one in those situations unless they're waving a gun instead of a Canon. We all have equal rights in those situations. Pointing out that you are a pro making a living in order to get someone to jump back is like me photographing a wedding and not letting the rellies with point-and-shoots take pics of the posed group shots. I just ask them politely to make sure they wait until I'm done photographing the specific pose before they take their shots.
There's room enough in the world for all of us.
But why were you astonished? Surely you've of an age where that type of human behavior is not surprising.
I'll give you a different take, as i dont know any of the parties involved and i can't even relate to the inicdent (the whole concept of shooting birds at boxes/perches is completely foreign to me). Although the guy may very well have been selfish and somewhat of a jerk, that's not what you asked. Your question of whether he knew it was public land was, quite frankly, disrespectful--even if that's not how you intended it. I suspect a lot of people would have found it quite obnoxious. I'll give you an analogy: say i go to a public beach, build a sand castle and start shooting the waves behind with the castle as a fg prop. If you came up behind me and started shooting the same scene without even asking permission, i probably wouldn't be too thrilled with you. As i said, i can't relate to this specific situation, but the way you presented it idon't think you should be surprised at all, just thankful he didnt pick a fight with you.
The guy is into the realm of the fanatic, and I generally expect somewhat irrational behavior from fanatics. The guy actually pays his grocery bill with bird pictures? I doubt it. I don't let stuff like that bother me.
For me it's not worth the heartburn. I would have approached it differently, but that's not saying you were wrong. I would have talked to him first, strokes his fragile ego, and probably come away with good photos.
Just say something like "Wow! I have been shooting here for days wishing I had gear like yours! Do you mind if I watch you work and maybe take a few photos too? Man, that lens is really something! You must be a professional, huh Mister? Goollllllyyyyyyy Geeee!!!!" He'd have talked your leg off and felt really good about you taking pictures.
If that didn't work, I'd go somewhere else for the day and beat him to the spot with your own perch the next day. Then be really friendly and invite him to join you. Lay it on thick.
There are jerks in the world. Give no ground to jerks, ever!! Do not provoke a confrontation, but do not back down. Just stay and shoot as you wish. The jerk opted to leave - end of story.
He will have to find a different bluebird to provide him a living. Really now!!
It can get worse. I know of a couple of photographers here in the UK, who would not only would removed a NATURAL perch they erected at the end of their session (regardless of who was around them taking photos) but also ensure that they destroyed/defaced it enough that others could not use it.
Money can bring out the worst in some.. for another example see here on UKNP , part of NPN).
I see nothing wrong with your actions here, but think the other guy was an arrogant jerk by your accounting of how he behaved.
I prefer to shoot alone or with one or two friends who visit the same places I do. If more people show up at a location I will generally move on to somewhere else less crowded.
But I've had one similar encounter here in AZ, and with a real professional who does make a living with photography (and workshops). It was many years ago now, so I may not have the details exactly right. While at a very public high activity birding spot I started to take photos of an Acorn Woodpecker when I was asked to stop by a guy sitting in the area. He told me that it was his set-up and intended for his workshop participants only, and that his participants wouldn't like it if someone not paying for the workshop as his participants were paying wouldn't like it. This surprised me because I didn't see anyone else there taking photos, so how did I even know that was the situation? I took one photo and left. I found out later that the set up was in fact on private property (an enclave in the national forest) and the photographer had made arrangements with the owner to do so, and obviously he was within his rights to take that position. But it really bothered me at the time.
"Hank, y would you coddle him and boost his ego,,it would only serve him to be a s--thead at another time and another place."
Don't know me very well, do you Kim?
I love to help people make fools of themselves. Egos are fair game wherever I find them. I bet by the time I was through being the nice guy he'd be wondering a whole lot about his own treatment of other people. If not, well, I had a pleasant time jerking a leg and got some good photos to go with the (inner) laughter.
While I won't take a stand on the issue (who cares what I think, anyway?) I am somewhat amused by the fact that the responders sided mostly with Richard. Amused, because in past threads where the scenario was reversed, responders generally expressed disdain for secondary photographers who crowded someone already setup and shooting. Beyond photography, this situation could apply to fishing, camping, or almost any activity in a public place. Discord arises because we each demand a different amount of "personal space" and apparently, the forum response depends on which "offended" party poses the question.
Just suppose a couple of people are eating at a particular picnic table in a public park. Is it possible for a stranger to then sit at the other (unused) end of the table while still "respecting their space and being careful not to disrespect their first come first served status?" After all, it is "a public place" and they "did not harm the situation in any way." Is it required to offer the courtesy of asking permission to share the space? Is this a valid analogy?
Rick, I think the guy's argument sounds more like "I saw the mountain first and hence it's mine". Although in this case, if the guy indeed built the perch himself, then the argument sounds more like "This car is mine and if a bird sits on top of it you cannot take a picture of it".
Either way they sound ridiculous.
Although I'd really like to know who would dare to openly challenge somebody with a frame like yours!
Well, around here, we have so many "long lenses" around, we get used to sharing., we have pros, and hobbyists everywhere we go., it is simply understood that anything is open game, and most everyone is respectful, and courteous.
I have walked in on set-ups, and enjoyed the company., this is how we all became friends.
Now, this character has every right to his opinion, every right to pack up and go, and every right to be selfish., but he will also need to deal with everyones opinions concerning his manners, and eventually I hope he realizes his attitude needs an adjustment.
If not, so be it, and sorry about his luck.
One of the most important and valuable things we can have in life is good friends., and you can never have too many.
no worries here Richard., put it behind you and move on, wish him well, and remember, everyone deserves respect, even if they do not earn it.
Thanks for all the feedback.
I went there today and set up a perch and 2 guys showed up. We all got some shots and when I left earlier than one of them I asked him to dismantle the perch and put it in the woods for another time. No problems and we shared some info on where to see other birds.
Cheers
Rick T
Hi Cindy
No there is no damage or I would not do it. We set a temporary perch abot six feet from the box. The birds adjust to it in a minute and include it in their repetoire. I can, when I move incrementally, get easily within 15 feet and the birds do not interupt their nest visits. I do appreciate your concern for the birds however.
Cheers
Rick T
I'll chime in. If I came upon several folks shooting at a perch that was not there the day before, then I would wonder if they had set it up. And since they were there first THAT day, then they would be the first come first served. I would stay in the background and try to initiate a quiet conversation about the situation before doing any shooting. If the conversation was friendly, they might offer me to come take a shot or two. If the conversation was crappy like the guy brings up "I'm a pro and this is my perch and you can't shoot here", then I would probably find some amusing (to me) way to play with the jerk. Like taking photos of him shooting and ignoring his perch and birds. If he asks to stop taking his photo then I might tell him I am a pro shooting editorial images in a magazine for editorial use about jerky ill-mannered photographers and that I did not need his permission to take images of him in this public park for editorial use. Doesn't really matter how true any of that is as long as it messes up his day as much as he messed you up by his being a jerk. It would all depend to me on how big a jerk he was and whether he was asking for it. Also, depends on how rowdy I was feeling. I do understand that honey attracts more bees; but sometimes throwing mud can be more fun. People might call me a jerk for this, but jerks bring out the jerk in others!!!!
I am considered a very friendly guy who helps others whenever I can. If I had been the other photographer, I would have asked you if you minded me getting some more shots first (if these particular shots were crucial to an assignment or a personal important project) and then invite you in and give you some pointers if requested or I saw the need and you were friendly towards the offer to help.
One of the issues here is of manners. While you were polite, you did start shooting his setup without asking permission (whether it was needed or not). The other photographer could have defused this in a very polite and friendly manner; but he didn't. I personally don't like the manners of the perch photographer. He was a jerk. But mistakes seem to have occurred from both sides.
Discussion
21 repliesThis morning I returned to a box I had been shooting with another man the night before. There were two people there with tripods and cameras set up and they had erected a perch about 6 feet from the box. The birds were using the perch and all seemed happy.
I approached behind the two others and hand holding began to shoot while respecting their space and being careful not to disrespect their first come first served status. I might say that it is normal to share space if there is no fear of scaring away the subject.
Withinn a few seconds the male said to me "you know I do this for a living eh". To which I responded "I won't interfere with your shooting don't worry".
He continued by mentioning that it was his perch. And I responded by asking him if he thought it was private land. He then said well you can't use my perch and dismantled it.
He finally left in a huff and I stayed with another man who had happened along and had a great time.
This is a public place and I showed the people respect when I arrived and did not harm the situation in any way. I was astonished at the reaction.
Am I right? Am I missing something?
Opinions would be welcomed.
Rick T
I guess I am sounding a lot like I am just telling you what you want to hear and I have been in that guy's situation before. However, one must have the common sense to know what really necessitates defending one's exclusivity in a pro market. I mean, come on, a bluebird on a stick with maybe a mealworm? This year my belted kingfisher set-up is on private property but in the past it was on public land. Nonetheless, in past years i still let many photogs in my blind for free and there are a few guys out there who have kingfishers on the same perch as me. I have still managed to sell kingfisher articles to 6 different mags in the past 18 months.
I also understand how any normal individual who thinks of themselves as polite and respectful would really be questioning themselves after such a confrontation. FWIW, I think you did the right thing.
I've seen people like this before, and have been stuck shooting alongside them now and then. I back water for no one in those situations unless they're waving a gun instead of a Canon. We all have equal rights in those situations. Pointing out that you are a pro making a living in order to get someone to jump back is like me photographing a wedding and not letting the rellies with point-and-shoots take pics of the posed group shots. I just ask them politely to make sure they wait until I'm done photographing the specific pose before they take their shots.
There's room enough in the world for all of us.
But why were you astonished? Surely you've of an age where that type of human behavior is not surprising.
Kent in SD
Just say something like "Wow! I have been shooting here for days wishing I had gear like yours! Do you mind if I watch you work and maybe take a few photos too? Man, that lens is really something! You must be a professional, huh Mister? Goollllllyyyyyyy Geeee!!!!" He'd have talked your leg off and felt really good about you taking pictures.
If that didn't work, I'd go somewhere else for the day and beat him to the spot with your own perch the next day. Then be really friendly and invite him to join you. Lay it on thick.
He will have to find a different bluebird to provide him a living. Really now!!
Money can bring out the worst in some.. for another example see here on UKNP , part of NPN).
Sounds like he was a bit of a jerk...
I prefer to shoot alone or with one or two friends who visit the same places I do. If more people show up at a location I will generally move on to somewhere else less crowded.
But I've had one similar encounter here in AZ, and with a real professional who does make a living with photography (and workshops). It was many years ago now, so I may not have the details exactly right. While at a very public high activity birding spot I started to take photos of an Acorn Woodpecker when I was asked to stop by a guy sitting in the area. He told me that it was his set-up and intended for his workshop participants only, and that his participants wouldn't like it if someone not paying for the workshop as his participants were paying wouldn't like it. This surprised me because I didn't see anyone else there taking photos, so how did I even know that was the situation? I took one photo and left. I found out later that the set up was in fact on private property (an enclave in the national forest) and the photographer had made arrangements with the owner to do so, and obviously he was within his rights to take that position. But it really bothered me at the time.
Don't know me very well, do you Kim?
I love to help people make fools of themselves. Egos are fair game wherever I find them. I bet by the time I was through being the nice guy he'd be wondering a whole lot about his own treatment of other people. If not, well, I had a pleasant time jerking a leg and got some good photos to go with the (inner) laughter.
Just suppose a couple of people are eating at a particular picnic table in a public park. Is it possible for a stranger to then sit at the other (unused) end of the table while still "respecting their space and being careful not to disrespect their first come first served status?" After all, it is "a public place" and they "did not harm the situation in any way." Is it required to offer the courtesy of asking permission to share the space? Is this a valid analogy?
just looking at both sides,
...david...
Either way they sound ridiculous.
Although I'd really like to know who would dare to openly challenge somebody with a frame like yours!
I have walked in on set-ups, and enjoyed the company., this is how we all became friends.
Now, this character has every right to his opinion, every right to pack up and go, and every right to be selfish., but he will also need to deal with everyones opinions concerning his manners, and eventually I hope he realizes his attitude needs an adjustment.
If not, so be it, and sorry about his luck.
One of the most important and valuable things we can have in life is good friends., and you can never have too many.
no worries here Richard., put it behind you and move on, wish him well, and remember, everyone deserves respect, even if they do not earn it.
I'd like to meet you some day. You're too much
I went there today and set up a perch and 2 guys showed up. We all got some shots and when I left earlier than one of them I asked him to dismantle the perch and put it in the woods for another time. No problems and we shared some info on where to see other birds.
Cheers
Rick T
I don't know what a perch is, but I don't think you were wrong.
No there is no damage or I would not do it. We set a temporary perch abot six feet from the box. The birds adjust to it in a minute and include it in their repetoire. I can, when I move incrementally, get easily within 15 feet and the birds do not interupt their nest visits. I do appreciate your concern for the birds however.
Cheers
Rick T
I am considered a very friendly guy who helps others whenever I can. If I had been the other photographer, I would have asked you if you minded me getting some more shots first (if these particular shots were crucial to an assignment or a personal important project) and then invite you in and give you some pointers if requested or I saw the need and you were friendly towards the offer to help.
One of the issues here is of manners. While you were polite, you did start shooting his setup without asking permission (whether it was needed or not). The other photographer could have defused this in a very polite and friendly manner; but he didn't. I personally don't like the manners of the perch photographer. He was a jerk. But mistakes seem to have occurred from both sides.
Troup Nightingale