Posted by Vandit Kalia on July 29, 2008 at 5:22 AM
I am starting a high-altitude project this winter, which will require me to spend several weeks camping in temperatures that drop down to -20C at night (-10 to -15C in the day).
I believe that for a few hours, Canon gear works quite well at -15C. But what I am not sure about is how the gear will react to extended exposure to the cold. I am assuming at this point that I'll have access to a fire or some sort of heater to keep away the cold at night, but in the daytime, we are entirely outdoors all day.
My questions are:
1/ What effect does extended usage in such cold temperatures have on the gear? Any tips on keeping it warm? Please remember - I will be in a location where there is very little in the way of amenities, so I need simple/homebrew type of solutions. Chemical handwarmers and such - not an option unless I can get reusable/rechargable ones.
2/ Any tips on charging batteries?
3/ I gather a 12V power supply would help keep the camera powered.
I think the answer you will get from most is to not try to keep cameras and lenses warm, just batteries. The danger for lenses is fast thermal expansion or contraction (quick temp changes in either direction) that leads to thermal stresses and cracked elements. This is an extreme example, but bringing your gear in from the cold into a slightly warmer, much more humid tent can cause condensation and perhaps refreezing of the condensation on interior components of the lens.
I'd say that your safest bet is to keep the temp of your gear more or less the same for the entire trip but not to go so far as to leave it in open air as frost may develop on the exterior surfaces. It is the batteries that should be kept warm and perhaps you can accomplish this naturally be keeping them in pockets close to your person.
Hope this helps!
Scott
Posted by Kent Staubus on July 29, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Where I live it normally is that cold in winter. I just leave my photo gear out in my car all winter long. Trying to keep it warm just creates problems with condensation etc. Other than zooms being a bit stiff to operate etc. I don't really see any problems. Bring several spare batteries. Keep one in the camera and the others in an inside pocket. Take some of the chemical handwarmers with you too. They can be used to warm up anything that stops working. When it gets REALLY cold (I don't consider -20 really really cold) I will tape a chemical handwarmer over the battery compartment of my camera.
Kent in SD
Posted by Greg Barteluk on July 29, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Vandit: Kent has it right. I have shot in the Canadian Arctic, where daily highs reach -40C and the biggest issue is batteries. Lens and the camera operation is not really affected. Brings lots of spare batteries and keep them nice and warm under your coat. Stay warm and enjoy.
The first thing to make sure of is that you are warm and have adequate resources for your stay. Layers! Photo gear takes second place to personal preparation. By the nature of your enquiry it seems as though you may not have a lot of cold weather experience so it may be prudent to do some cold weather expedition research.
Use mitts with glove liners rather than gloves if you plan on being out for extended times.
Cameras do seem to vary a lot in cold weather with make and model. With my D2X I have had my batteries perform for several hours at -45C. Those I know with higher end Canon's seem to have good battery life in the cold.
If you are coming in from the cold to a warm area make sure your camera is well packed away to prevent condensation. I have a canvas Billingham bag which takes about 4 hours to reach warm temperature. If you are removing cards to review them take them out prior to going indoors. They warm up faster than a camera. As Kent suggests, if possible, leave your camera in the cold.
Chemical warmers are not that bulky and some brands can last up to 8 hours. I would seriously consider taking a supply. A Canadian photographer doing Arctic work has a 12 volt rig powered by a French battery called SAFT which is built to military specs and recharged with a solar panel. It is a custom made rig which requires somebody with a knowledge of electronics to assemble and it is bulky. Extra batteries may better serve your purpose.
Camera handling is also important. If you should get snow on it don't try to blow it off with breath as it may just melt then turn to ice. I have also had the eyepiece and camera back frost over due to moisture from my face when holding the camera to my eye for extended periods of time. Be gentle with your equipment, some plastic components don't like the cold.
Posted by Vandit Kalia on July 29, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Wow! Thanks for the info, guys. It has been very helpful.
Greg - it is good to know that -15C working conditions will not be a problem for the gear. To be honest, I had suspected as much but I wasnt sure if extended usage under such conditions would have caused complications or no.
Scott: re. the batteries: I usually keep batteries tucked in the inner pockets of my fleece pants (middle layer), so they stay warm, pulling them out only when it is time to shoot. That's worked quite well for the hiking I have done.
As for the gear, I was planning on packing it in padded Lowepro bags and possible covering it with a blanket. Then I take it out of the room in the morning - by the time I start shooting, it will have been outdoors for 30 minutes at the least. That would have prevented rapid cooling/heating, as per my reckoning. But based on Kent's feedback, I think it would be simpler to just leave the stuff in a bag covered with a blanket just outside my room. Anyone think this would be a bad idea?
Dave - I have done a fair bit of high-altitude hiking, and have also spent a few days shooting off Vermont in winter in similar temperatures. So from a personal health maintenance point of view, I should be ok (although I am not sure what it will be like to do this for a month, with very little in the way of amenities). But your point is well-taken nonetheless - especially regards the mitts, cos I always manage to screw up when it comes to keeping my hands warm. And thanks for that tip about not breathing on the gear as well.
A few additional questions:
1/ Chemical warmers: would applying some of them to gear that is acting up due to the cold cause that rapid warming Scott mentioned?
2/ What sort of battery life can I expect in this weather for my 1D2 and 40D (with grip)?
3/ And any other things to watch out for when it comes to handling the gear?
1/ I can`t imagine it would be a big risk on camera bodies, but again on the lens this would cause an uneven, localized zone of expansion of the different materials used in the lens and perhaps cause a high stress on the lens elements.
However, I don`t think it will come to this. I suspect all you might see is some very sluggish performance of the LCD displays. Your camera may also detect a premature dead battery that you can bring back to life by exchanging it with one in oyur pocket. All the other phenomena that I`ve heard of (frozen focus elements, cracked front elements, etc.) are related to poor management of temperature changes.
I shoot here and guide photo excursions in winter all the time and have done a lot in temps to -30F. The lcd features will definitely slow down, as mentioned, and that will slow down your working pace a bit as you wait for them to reflect the settings changes you make. Keeping face moisture and breath from fogging the back of the camera and viewfinder can be a challenge. I learned to breathe out one side of my mouth, the side away from the camera.
Battery life is quite variable, and will depend also on whether you are using IS lenses, which eat batteries about 30 percent faster on average. Ultimate battery life won't be impacted as much if you take the cold spent batteries out of the camera and put them against your warm body. Once they warm fully, they'll regain some of their charge. I have not noticed any lens problems in those cold temps yet. I've shot the 600 f4, 400 f2.8, 400 f5.6, 100-400, 70-200, 100 macro and 17-40 and Canon 1.4 TC in that cold with no issues to report.
Cameras do sometimes have a hard time in bitter cold. This is especially true if they came from a humid room into the cold, which can cause some moisture within the camera to freeze. I've had a screechy, sticky shutter a few times in those conditions.
Last winter during our full lunar eclipse it was about -20F and I kept my camera warmer between shooting sessions by taping three dry chemical handwarmers to the quilted lining inside a rabbit fur bomber hat and putting the hat on the camera body. Kept it warmer but not too warm.
At some point, even if you plan on keeping the camera gear outside, you'll probably have to bring it in to do some cleaning or other gear adjustments. I have a different approach than some of the others here. I tend to want to keep my camera warmer.
Aside from the aforementioned lens stresses as well as condensation and freezing of electronic components, the danger when bringing a very cold camera into a warm room without letting it acclimate slowly is that condensation will form on the sensor, and once that dries, dust specks on the sensor can become more or less pasted on and very difficult to remove.
I would not be at all reluctant to bring your gear into the warm whenever you want to. Gradual warm-up is the key. If you were expedition tenting I'd not say that, because a warm tent in winter is a mighty humid environment, but it sounds like you're actually in a building. Is that right?
My camera backpack is padded, and that acts as insulation, and I have no problems coming indoors from a very cold shoot and leaving the backpack zipped up for a couple hours. I always bring my gear indoors between shoots in winter, and this has been an effective way to let it warm up slowly. Before I bring the gear in, I take out the memory cards so I can get busy and download and process images right away while the gear is still in the bag and warming itself up. I don't know if rapid warmup has an impact on the CF cards. I've been using the best cards SanDisk and Lexar sell for the last five years and haven't had a failure yet, so I'm thinking it's probably not a big issue with those cards. Cheaper cards? Maybe, but I just don't know.
When I'm out in those conditions and not shooting from a tripod, I have the strap around my neck, my coat unzipped part-way down and the camera body against one of my inner layers of my chest clothing, with the coat flaps tucked around it and the lens sticking out. This keeps the body warmer than the air, say maybe about 40 degrees, but not so warm that pulling it off my chest to shoot causes extreme temp changes.
Hope this give you some additional help. Good luck, and I hope you get some real winners!
Vandit,
I agree with others, keep you camera's cold.The key to great cold weather battery performance is to not let your battery die in the camera, then they can be difficult to rewarm in the field.
Here are my suggestions for batteries (based on numerous winter expeditions in Alaska and Nepal):
Use a lanyard around your neck that has a pouch to put batteries in, your pocket alone will not be warm enough. When not using the camera, keep the batteries in the pouch and always next to your body, day and night (while sleeping). This techinque works very well and you should be able to get the maximum amount of images out of the battery.
Keep the chemical heat packs in your pockets, for warming up you hands and batteries that start to fade.
In extreme cold (-40C and colder) I use both techniques. I rotate the batteries from pouch around my neck to camera, from camera to heated pocket and then back to pouch. I usually have three batteries.
To get maximum battery life, turn off your lcd, manual focus, turn off image stablization and only turn the camera on to make the exposure then turn it off quickly.
A few additional suggestions. I keep extra batteries in a passport pouch around my neck, between layers. While Lithium-Ion batteries are the best yet at cold temperatures, you'll lose 30-40% of battery life if they get really cold.
Test the equipment in cold weather if you can. Some big lenses have different kinds of metal at different parts. The different metals (gearing, in particular) contract at different rates at very cold temperatures, and will cease working. My Zuiko 300mm f2.8 works great to about -40, but any colder and the metal casing contracts too tightly and the drive motors can't adjust it any longer.
Buy lots of handwarmers, and try to get the long-lasting kind. I use velcro straps to lash them to parts of the camera and lenses that are getting too cold. They last longer if you put them in a clean sock; I fold the sock back so the triple-thickness is towards the cold and the single thickness towards the camera. This works great for wiping condensation off the viewfinder, too.
If you've got sunlight where you are headed, solar chargers really work and the charging actually warms the battery. I posted a long comment on how I do it here a month or two ago; it should be in the archives.
High altitude, wind and cold will really play hob with your skin. Pack a non-greasy skin lotion and use it zealously on exposed skin. Put your sunscreen on first; the worst sunburns of my life have come on ice at high altitudes.
I use Swany Toaster mitts up here. http://www.swanyamerica.com/prod.php?p=SWATS-16&k=59403 I find them good to -45C on their own. The advantages are the waterproof zipper lets you get your fingers out to close work and make it easy to drop in dry chemical warmers.
Don't know how your feet are in the cold but you can buy warming socks. I prefer the ones that let you place a a warming pack in the toes rather than the battery type.
Dave
Posted by Vandit Kalia on July 30, 2008 at 4:38 PM
Again, I am truly in awe of what a great resource NPN and NPNers are.
Steve - that was a *very* informative post, thanks. I will be in a basic stone shepherd's hut most of the time, and the air there is VERY dry. So gradual warmups should be ok, and humidity should not be an issue.
Carl - I tend to stuff the batteries in a fleece pocket which puts them quite close to my.. ahem.. groin area. Of course, reaching in to grab them sometimes arouses (definitely not a pun!) unwanted attention from others nearby, so that lanyard around the neck might be socially more acceptable :)
Jim - I should have electricity. If not, I will take a small genset with me, in which case I will have electricity :) I generally carry copious amounts of moisturizers and vaseline (vaseline used to work quite well when I did cold water diving), but good to be reminded of that. It goes into my checklist. As for photos - well, if I come away from the month with 20 good photos, I will be ecstatic. Am chasing a very tough subject (snow leopards).
Dave - battery types would be better simply from an ease-of-procurement point of view. Handwarmers arent really available in India, and I'll have to see if Cabelas will ship a large amount here. Are there actually any such things as battery-powered hand/feet warmers (the portable, tailored equivalent of electric blankets)?
Incidentally, I am also going to be using astro refractors on manual focus in an attempt to achieve focal length equivalents of 4000mm or more. I'll keep the group posted on how this goes as well.
I was advised against electrical sock warmers for the reason the wiring may get damaged in washing. They do require a 9 volt battery.
The advantage of the chemical warmers is you can use them for a variety of uses such as in a camera bag and you need only slip another into a boot or glove where the electrical require changing the battery.
Discussion
12 repliesI believe that for a few hours, Canon gear works quite well at -15C. But what I am not sure about is how the gear will react to extended exposure to the cold. I am assuming at this point that I'll have access to a fire or some sort of heater to keep away the cold at night, but in the daytime, we are entirely outdoors all day.
My questions are:
1/ What effect does extended usage in such cold temperatures have on the gear? Any tips on keeping it warm? Please remember - I will be in a location where there is very little in the way of amenities, so I need simple/homebrew type of solutions. Chemical handwarmers and such - not an option unless I can get reusable/rechargable ones.
2/ Any tips on charging batteries?
3/ I gather a 12V power supply would help keep the camera powered.
4/ Any precautions vis a vis the lenses?
Thanks,
Vandit
I think the answer you will get from most is to not try to keep cameras and lenses warm, just batteries. The danger for lenses is fast thermal expansion or contraction (quick temp changes in either direction) that leads to thermal stresses and cracked elements. This is an extreme example, but bringing your gear in from the cold into a slightly warmer, much more humid tent can cause condensation and perhaps refreezing of the condensation on interior components of the lens.
I'd say that your safest bet is to keep the temp of your gear more or less the same for the entire trip but not to go so far as to leave it in open air as frost may develop on the exterior surfaces. It is the batteries that should be kept warm and perhaps you can accomplish this naturally be keeping them in pockets close to your person.
Hope this helps!
Scott
Kent in SD
The first thing to make sure of is that you are warm and have adequate resources for your stay. Layers! Photo gear takes second place to personal preparation. By the nature of your enquiry it seems as though you may not have a lot of cold weather experience so it may be prudent to do some cold weather expedition research.
Use mitts with glove liners rather than gloves if you plan on being out for extended times.
Cameras do seem to vary a lot in cold weather with make and model. With my D2X I have had my batteries perform for several hours at -45C. Those I know with higher end Canon's seem to have good battery life in the cold.
If you are coming in from the cold to a warm area make sure your camera is well packed away to prevent condensation. I have a canvas Billingham bag which takes about 4 hours to reach warm temperature. If you are removing cards to review them take them out prior to going indoors. They warm up faster than a camera. As Kent suggests, if possible, leave your camera in the cold.
Chemical warmers are not that bulky and some brands can last up to 8 hours. I would seriously consider taking a supply. A Canadian photographer doing Arctic work has a 12 volt rig powered by a French battery called SAFT which is built to military specs and recharged with a solar panel. It is a custom made rig which requires somebody with a knowledge of electronics to assemble and it is bulky. Extra batteries may better serve your purpose.
Camera handling is also important. If you should get snow on it don't try to blow it off with breath as it may just melt then turn to ice. I have also had the eyepiece and camera back frost over due to moisture from my face when holding the camera to my eye for extended periods of time. Be gentle with your equipment, some plastic components don't like the cold.
Greg - it is good to know that -15C working conditions will not be a problem for the gear. To be honest, I had suspected as much but I wasnt sure if extended usage under such conditions would have caused complications or no.
Scott: re. the batteries: I usually keep batteries tucked in the inner pockets of my fleece pants (middle layer), so they stay warm, pulling them out only when it is time to shoot. That's worked quite well for the hiking I have done.
As for the gear, I was planning on packing it in padded Lowepro bags and possible covering it with a blanket. Then I take it out of the room in the morning - by the time I start shooting, it will have been outdoors for 30 minutes at the least. That would have prevented rapid cooling/heating, as per my reckoning. But based on Kent's feedback, I think it would be simpler to just leave the stuff in a bag covered with a blanket just outside my room. Anyone think this would be a bad idea?
Dave - I have done a fair bit of high-altitude hiking, and have also spent a few days shooting off Vermont in winter in similar temperatures. So from a personal health maintenance point of view, I should be ok (although I am not sure what it will be like to do this for a month, with very little in the way of amenities). But your point is well-taken nonetheless - especially regards the mitts, cos I always manage to screw up when it comes to keeping my hands warm. And thanks for that tip about not breathing on the gear as well.
A few additional questions:
1/ Chemical warmers: would applying some of them to gear that is acting up due to the cold cause that rapid warming Scott mentioned?
2/ What sort of battery life can I expect in this weather for my 1D2 and 40D (with grip)?
3/ And any other things to watch out for when it comes to handling the gear?
Thanks again for all your help!
Vandit
1/ I can`t imagine it would be a big risk on camera bodies, but again on the lens this would cause an uneven, localized zone of expansion of the different materials used in the lens and perhaps cause a high stress on the lens elements.
However, I don`t think it will come to this. I suspect all you might see is some very sluggish performance of the LCD displays. Your camera may also detect a premature dead battery that you can bring back to life by exchanging it with one in oyur pocket. All the other phenomena that I`ve heard of (frozen focus elements, cracked front elements, etc.) are related to poor management of temperature changes.
I shoot here and guide photo excursions in winter all the time and have done a lot in temps to -30F. The lcd features will definitely slow down, as mentioned, and that will slow down your working pace a bit as you wait for them to reflect the settings changes you make. Keeping face moisture and breath from fogging the back of the camera and viewfinder can be a challenge. I learned to breathe out one side of my mouth, the side away from the camera.
Battery life is quite variable, and will depend also on whether you are using IS lenses, which eat batteries about 30 percent faster on average. Ultimate battery life won't be impacted as much if you take the cold spent batteries out of the camera and put them against your warm body. Once they warm fully, they'll regain some of their charge. I have not noticed any lens problems in those cold temps yet. I've shot the 600 f4, 400 f2.8, 400 f5.6, 100-400, 70-200, 100 macro and 17-40 and Canon 1.4 TC in that cold with no issues to report.
Cameras do sometimes have a hard time in bitter cold. This is especially true if they came from a humid room into the cold, which can cause some moisture within the camera to freeze. I've had a screechy, sticky shutter a few times in those conditions.
Last winter during our full lunar eclipse it was about -20F and I kept my camera warmer between shooting sessions by taping three dry chemical handwarmers to the quilted lining inside a rabbit fur bomber hat and putting the hat on the camera body. Kept it warmer but not too warm.
At some point, even if you plan on keeping the camera gear outside, you'll probably have to bring it in to do some cleaning or other gear adjustments. I have a different approach than some of the others here. I tend to want to keep my camera warmer.
Aside from the aforementioned lens stresses as well as condensation and freezing of electronic components, the danger when bringing a very cold camera into a warm room without letting it acclimate slowly is that condensation will form on the sensor, and once that dries, dust specks on the sensor can become more or less pasted on and very difficult to remove.
I would not be at all reluctant to bring your gear into the warm whenever you want to. Gradual warm-up is the key. If you were expedition tenting I'd not say that, because a warm tent in winter is a mighty humid environment, but it sounds like you're actually in a building. Is that right?
My camera backpack is padded, and that acts as insulation, and I have no problems coming indoors from a very cold shoot and leaving the backpack zipped up for a couple hours. I always bring my gear indoors between shoots in winter, and this has been an effective way to let it warm up slowly. Before I bring the gear in, I take out the memory cards so I can get busy and download and process images right away while the gear is still in the bag and warming itself up. I don't know if rapid warmup has an impact on the CF cards. I've been using the best cards SanDisk and Lexar sell for the last five years and haven't had a failure yet, so I'm thinking it's probably not a big issue with those cards. Cheaper cards? Maybe, but I just don't know.
When I'm out in those conditions and not shooting from a tripod, I have the strap around my neck, my coat unzipped part-way down and the camera body against one of my inner layers of my chest clothing, with the coat flaps tucked around it and the lens sticking out. This keeps the body warmer than the air, say maybe about 40 degrees, but not so warm that pulling it off my chest to shoot causes extreme temp changes.
Hope this give you some additional help. Good luck, and I hope you get some real winners!
I agree with others, keep you camera's cold.The key to great cold weather battery performance is to not let your battery die in the camera, then they can be difficult to rewarm in the field.
Here are my suggestions for batteries (based on numerous winter expeditions in Alaska and Nepal):
Use a lanyard around your neck that has a pouch to put batteries in, your pocket alone will not be warm enough. When not using the camera, keep the batteries in the pouch and always next to your body, day and night (while sleeping). This techinque works very well and you should be able to get the maximum amount of images out of the battery.
Keep the chemical heat packs in your pockets, for warming up you hands and batteries that start to fade.
In extreme cold (-40C and colder) I use both techniques. I rotate the batteries from pouch around my neck to camera, from camera to heated pocket and then back to pouch. I usually have three batteries.
To get maximum battery life, turn off your lcd, manual focus, turn off image stablization and only turn the camera on to make the exposure then turn it off quickly.
Good luck
Carl
www.battreallphoto.com
A few additional suggestions. I keep extra batteries in a passport pouch around my neck, between layers. While Lithium-Ion batteries are the best yet at cold temperatures, you'll lose 30-40% of battery life if they get really cold.
Test the equipment in cold weather if you can. Some big lenses have different kinds of metal at different parts. The different metals (gearing, in particular) contract at different rates at very cold temperatures, and will cease working. My Zuiko 300mm f2.8 works great to about -40, but any colder and the metal casing contracts too tightly and the drive motors can't adjust it any longer.
Buy lots of handwarmers, and try to get the long-lasting kind. I use velcro straps to lash them to parts of the camera and lenses that are getting too cold. They last longer if you put them in a clean sock; I fold the sock back so the triple-thickness is towards the cold and the single thickness towards the camera. This works great for wiping condensation off the viewfinder, too.
If you've got sunlight where you are headed, solar chargers really work and the charging actually warms the battery. I posted a long comment on how I do it here a month or two ago; it should be in the archives.
High altitude, wind and cold will really play hob with your skin. Pack a non-greasy skin lotion and use it zealously on exposed skin. Put your sunscreen on first; the worst sunburns of my life have come on ice at high altitudes.
Good luck. Post lots of photos when you get back.
I use Swany Toaster mitts up here. http://www.swanyamerica.com/prod.php?p=SWATS-16&k=59403 I find them good to -45C on their own. The advantages are the waterproof zipper lets you get your fingers out to close work and make it easy to drop in dry chemical warmers.
Don't know how your feet are in the cold but you can buy warming socks. I prefer the ones that let you place a a warming pack in the toes rather than the battery type.
Dave
Steve - that was a *very* informative post, thanks. I will be in a basic stone shepherd's hut most of the time, and the air there is VERY dry. So gradual warmups should be ok, and humidity should not be an issue.
Carl - I tend to stuff the batteries in a fleece pocket which puts them quite close to my.. ahem.. groin area. Of course, reaching in to grab them sometimes arouses (definitely not a pun!) unwanted attention from others nearby, so that lanyard around the neck might be socially more acceptable :)
Jim - I should have electricity. If not, I will take a small genset with me, in which case I will have electricity :) I generally carry copious amounts of moisturizers and vaseline (vaseline used to work quite well when I did cold water diving), but good to be reminded of that. It goes into my checklist. As for photos - well, if I come away from the month with 20 good photos, I will be ecstatic. Am chasing a very tough subject (snow leopards).
Dave - battery types would be better simply from an ease-of-procurement point of view. Handwarmers arent really available in India, and I'll have to see if Cabelas will ship a large amount here. Are there actually any such things as battery-powered hand/feet warmers (the portable, tailored equivalent of electric blankets)?
Incidentally, I am also going to be using astro refractors on manual focus in an attempt to achieve focal length equivalents of 4000mm or more. I'll keep the group posted on how this goes as well.
Cheers,
Vandit
This is the site for the chemical warmers I use. http://tinyurl.com/5dge28
I was advised against electrical sock warmers for the reason the wiring may get damaged in washing. They do require a 9 volt battery.
The advantage of the chemical warmers is you can use them for a variety of uses such as in a camera bag and you need only slip another into a boot or glove where the electrical require changing the battery.