Posted by Todd Caudle on September 17, 2008 at 12:46 AM
Some people on the forums there are bitching that this is little more than a full-frame 50D. To which I say, HOLY COW! A full-frame 50D!!! Over 21 megapixels! Incredible noise sequestration! Digic-4! Auto sensor cleaning! Thank you, Canon!!!
Not only that, but think about shooting elk in rut in Rocky, and being able to switch to HD video mode. How's that for a keepsake option?! Even though I can't afford the upgrade right now, I'm very excited about this.
Posted by Todd Caudle on September 17, 2008 at 12:52 AM
Check it out: There's an sRAW setting that gives you 10.8MP, and another that gives 14.8MP, higher than the current 5D!
(Can you tell I'm excited? Geez, I was hitting the refresh button while on the dpreview site as if I was waiting for an eBay auction to end.)
Don't know how much it'll sell for yet, but I think I'd be pissed if I just spent $8K on a 1Ds Mk-3. I know those who want full weather sealing and high speed fps wouldn't be, but as a landscape shooter, I would be.
EDIT:
The 10.8 and 14.8 numbers are megaBYTES, not megapixels. Calm down, Caudle, you're gonna give yourself a freakin' heart attack.
EDIT #2:
sRAW sizes are 5.2mp and 10mp...
Posted by Kalin Wilson on September 17, 2008 at 12:54 AM
I'm in! Gonna have to think hard about the 50D vs 5DII but it's great to have those kinds of choices! Time to start saving!
Posted by Michael Renner on September 17, 2008 at 12:57 AM
Looks like they updated the story with the street price...
UPDATE: Body-only prices: US: $ 2,699
Not too shabby I'd say for the upgrades!!!
Posted by Adam Schallau on September 17, 2008 at 12:59 AM
Don't know how much it'll sell for yet, but I think I'd be pissed if I just spent $8K on a 1Ds Mk-3. I know those who want full weather sealing and high speed fps wouldn't be, but as a landscape shooter, I would be.
Another site is reporting $2699. I've checked my work email and haven't received anything official from Canon USA yet (didn't really expect to), but hope to have dealer pricing and availability from them in the morning.
Posted by Todd Caudle on September 17, 2008 at 1:00 AM
Noticed a mistake in the specs on the Canon site under the Specifications tab. Under compatible lenses it says:
"Canon EF lenses
(35mm-equivalent focal length is approx. 1.6x the lens focal length)"
It's a FF sensor, magnification factor should be 1:1.
Posted by Adam Schallau on September 17, 2008 at 1:01 AM
Did anyone else notice the line about environmental protection? I guess it has some weather sealing.
Posted by Todd Caudle on September 17, 2008 at 1:04 AM
WTF???
"Compatible with over 60 Canon EF/EF-S lenses and most EOS System accessories.
EF & EF-S Lenses
The EOS 5D Mark II is compatible with all Canon lenses in the EF lineup, ranging from ultra-wide angle to super telephoto lenses. Canon lenses employ advanced optical expertise and micron-precision engineering to deliver unprecedented performance in all facets of the photographic process. Special optical technologies, such as Aspherical, ultra-low dispersion, or fluorite elements are featured in the universally acclaimed L-series lenses. And Canon's Optical Image Stabilizer technology is featured in select lenses to minimize the effect of camera shake. Through Canon lenses, photographers can truly maximize the quality and liberating performance of the EOS 5D Mark II."
EF-S lenses? Are they serious???
If $2699 is indeed the price, this is even more monumental.
Posted by Michael Renner on September 17, 2008 at 1:07 AM
The more I read about this baby the more I like! A lot of really nice refinements here as well as the blockbuster features. Love the LCD size, Live View, 21MP...oh man. All for under 3K...
Wonder how good the weather sealing will be?
Posted by Jon LaBass on September 17, 2008 at 1:07 AM
Very exciting -- I'm sure many of you have been waiting for this camera just I have. Now I have a reason to upgrade from my 20d. Just need to find the funds...
Posted by Michael Renner on September 17, 2008 at 1:09 AM
oh my god - EF-S lenses. The sensor on this beast would destroy those optics...
Posted by Todd Caudle on September 17, 2008 at 1:13 AM
Jon, this is such a huge leap from a 20D that you should just use that as a door stop or a paper weight!
I'm still undecided on the whole live view thing, but I guess it's something I can learn to love. I wish the LCD was movable, for low-angle shots.
I wonder if somehow the EF-S lenses are only compatible with the sRAW settings, like maybe those use less of the sensor, and can therefore accommodate the smaller image circles of the EF-S lenses. Nah, can't be, then you'd have to have alternate markings on the focus screen, etc. I guess we can just stay tuned to learn more about this.
Posted by Scott Borger on September 17, 2008 at 1:18 AM
This is an incredible upgrade. I'll probably pick one of these up eventually. I really like the live view concept. Anybody want to buy a regular 5D?
Posted by Kalin Wilson on September 17, 2008 at 1:21 AM
Posted by Kalin Wilson on September 17, 2008 at 1:25 AM
if it takes EF-S lenses I won't have any reason to go with the 50D (love my 10-22mm), except it is nice to have the mag factor on the high end of focal lengths. Still not enough to outweight the other features.
Who's gonna be first with a new toy?
Posted by Todd Caudle on September 17, 2008 at 1:38 AM
But Kalin, you'd probably get better results by shooting with a 21mp, Digic-4-equipped camera and cropping in to the image to an equivalent of a 1.6X mag factor than you would shooting with long lenses on a 50D. At least comparable.
Posted by Kalin Wilson on September 17, 2008 at 1:56 AM
You don't have to convince me, bro! Good point though. The price seems reasonable for the upgrade from my 20D, only $300 more the the current 5D (those will take a price drop!). I'm saving as we type! By the time it hits the store's I'll be ready to buy
Posted by Todd Caudle on September 17, 2008 at 1:58 AM
If only it would be available to capture the fine details of a Colorado autumn. *sigh*
Posted by Bret Edge on September 17, 2008 at 2:28 AM
Sold. I'm buying one as soon as they're available. Anyone wanna buy a used 1Ds MKII?
Posted by Stan Rose on September 17, 2008 at 2:43 AM
Sweet!! Im glad i at leat got a year in with my 5D, if this is truly as good as it sounds (ill let y'all test drive it first) this may be too good to pass up, and i have two good kidneys i can sell, plus a used 5D
Posted by Scott Borger on September 17, 2008 at 3:03 AM
Any guess as to when this will start shipping?
Posted by John Klotz on September 17, 2008 at 3:15 AM
Oh my, now I will never be out of debt! Nor will I sleep until I get one...gear lust is such a cruel thing. lust lust lust....
Posted by Stan Rose on September 17, 2008 at 4:07 AM
And it weighs in at only 1.8 lbs--same as the 5D!
OK, now that ive calmed down, here's my question: has technology slowed to the point where i would get a good investment from this for say, 5 years or more? Granted, i bought my 5D after it was already getting old, but to see it being blown out of the water after only shooting full-frame for a year is kinda sobering.
Posted by Bryan Pezman on September 17, 2008 at 4:31 AM
Soooooooooooooooooo
For the majority of the market, this is great news. For those of us 1DsMarkIII owners, not so much. I like my 1DsMIII camera dont get me wrong, good feel, weather-sealing, good metering and all that jazz. But to have a professional body upstaged less than one year after its announcement by a camera that will cost roughly 1/3rd of the price and have BETTER digic IV technology, good LCD and very respectable ISO speed options at only 1 frame less per second (not that my 1dsMIII accurately shoots at 5fps anyway)
Canon has me pissed beyond all measure as a pro shooter. Why cut into your flagship model like this? Oy, serves me right for adopting tech too early.
And on a side note, I am glad that they upgraded the 24mm f1.4L lens to the MkII since it badly needed an upgrade BUT frankly as a landscape shooter, I cant help but be severely disappointed that they did not announce a new TS-E lens or an upgrade to the 100-400 as was rumored. Anyway, end of my rant, back to the 5DII love.
*** TO ALL THOSE INCLUDING TODD AND SCOTT ****
want to get rid of the 5D? Let me know how many actuations and the price.
Posted by Carl Gandolfo on September 17, 2008 at 9:14 AM
But will it focus better than the 1D III?
Posted by Nick Moore on September 17, 2008 at 9:27 AM
Man they added some sweet features, I can sense the excitement in this thread I think I may seriously consider the upgrade from my Mki 5D early next year!. Can't wait for a tech report from whoever shells out the dough first on it!.
Posted by Craig Schultz on September 17, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Wow, I'm surprised by the excitement for this camera, especially at the high price of $2700. I don't want to rain on everyone else's parade, but I'm disappointed.
Pros:
21Mpix - nice, but not using the latest sensor tech in the 50D sensor. Sad really.
Movie Mode - cool new feature, but really how much is this worth $100-200 tops as the same feature is in the $500 PowerShot SX1 IS just introduced.
IR remote control capable - about dang time!
Cons:
Doesn't have full weather sealing, just environmental protection. Not up to 1D or D3/D700 specs. - bad for landscape photogs.
No built in flash with manual control and commander capabilities. - I take lots of flash photos with my family
No intervolometer - it costs nothing, why isn't it included...
Same lame AF unit - perhaps slightly better; number one complaint with the 5D and will most likely be with this one too. This isn't necessary for landscapes, but did I mention I have kids that don't like to sit still for photos?
Slow FPS - kids again...wildlife...
I'm sure it will be a nice camera, but I was hoping for much more than this. Something along the lines of this sensor in a D700 body for this price. This camera appears to be a 1 trick pony; high resolution only. Did it really take them 3 years to improve to this???
I'd say it's about $600-800 too expensive given the competition today.
Here's to hoping Nikon comes out with a D3x @ $3500
The sad part is, this camera has to stay competitive for 3 more years given Canon's track record of releases of cameras at this level; I just don't see that happening given it's specs. It barely does so now.
Bummer,
Craig
Posted by Jack Brauer on September 17, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Pardon my ignorance - are there any lenses that can truly resolve those 21mp?
Posted by John Mumaw on September 17, 2008 at 11:39 AM
The new 5D will not accept EF-S lenses.
From a spec sheet:
• Canon EF lens mount (does not support EF-S lenses)
This camera has the right features at the market that it's intended for. A "1 trick pony" is a complete misnomer, as anyone who studied the actual differences is aware.
If 4 FPS isn't fast enough and 9 "lame" AF points and 6 Assist AF points aren't enough, then one of the 1d series cameras is obviously what you need.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on September 17, 2008 at 11:41 AM
A lot of value for the $2,700. I'll be very interested in the image quality, which Canon claims is their best. I still love my 4 year old 1Ds2 and would only upgrade if there is a significant improvement in IQ - at ISO 100. I'm not sure that the incremental ~4MP alone is enough, but the new processor and sensor combo may do the job. All the other new features would be great to have, but not a requirement, for me.
Posted by Todd Caudle on September 17, 2008 at 11:49 AM
Stan: Five years is a lifetime and a half in the digital age. However, let me put it to you this way. The minute they announced the original 5D, my 8MP Rebel XT suddenly seemed so inadequate. The day I placed my order, I took a trip up Gold Camp Road to shoot colors, and took my XT and my Mamiya RB system, which I hadn't touched all summer.
I feel no such reservations this time around. Sure, it would be great to have 21MP for capturing the fine details in a Colorado autumn aspen forest, but the current 5D produces such great images that I am comfortable waiting til next year to pick one up, thereby leaving my kidneys right where they belong.
Craig: Your disappointment mirrors much that I've seen on other forums. The giddiness here is attributable to this being a forum visited by mostly landscape photographers, and I think this camera is perfect for that. Those who were expecting a huge upgrade in focus points and FPS rate were simply waiting for a different camera. I thought there'd be no way Canon would even approach within a mile of the 1Ds Mk-3's MP count, and figured they'd come out with something in the 16MP range to leave room for another upgrade in the (less-than-three-years-away) future. Instead, they've produced a truly monumental upgrade in image quality potential. I'm pretty happy with the 24x36's and a few 30x45's I get with my current 5D. What the heck are the capabilities of a more than 50% increase in MP count going to be? I can't wait to find out!!!
I'm with Jack on this one. 21MP does you no good if you don't have the glass in front of the sensor that can resolve it. As far as I know, only the 2 new Nikon zooms and maybe some Zeiss lenses may have this capability. Someone please let me know if there are any other lenses that can truly resolve 21MP on this size of sensor since I'm now "browsing" the digital market.
Posted by Joshua Hardin on September 17, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Congratulations Canonites.
I don't currently shoot with Canon, but this camera is beginning to make me at least think twice about which system I'd like to upgrade to soon since I am also "browsing" the market and do not have a whole lot invested in lenses yet. It seems Nikon has a slight advantage in the quality of lenses (the Nikon 14-24 looks exceptionally sharp), but it doesn't have any bodies with a sensor resolution to take full advantage of them. Many Canon owners are complaining about the opposite, good selection of high-mp bodies but lenses that are in need of upgrades.
The new 5D has its drawbacks, as Craig & John mentioned (the AF system looks kind of lame). It is not the perfect camera for everyone. But the price isn't too bad when you condsider the 1Ds MkIII was first priced at around $8,000 (Bryan I feel your pain) and Sony's A900 is going to be about $1,000 more than the 5D II for three more megapixels. WTF Nikon, where is your response to this?
I'm pretty frustrated that four of Nikon's cameras right now (D300, D700, D3, D90) have a 12 mp sensor. I could care less about the D90 since it is essentially a D300 with video capabilities added. The D700 is not a true competitor to the 5D mk II, like the D3 and D300 it is instead nicely placed for editorial, wildlife and sports photographers who need more fps and better noise performance at higher ISOs. Don't get me wrong, these are excellent Nikon cameras, but for landscapes, I'd like to have larger files and good performance at LOW ISOs.
If Nikon wants to compete in the landscape/advertising/commercial market, they need to get their act together and release something with more than 12 mp. I'm getting sick of using Genuine Fractals every time I'd like to print something over 12x18. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that by Photokina (or the end of the year at least) Nikon will surprise us with a long-rumored D3x, D800 or something for the segment of photographers that are not currently being served by the D3/D300/D700/D90. I'm not holding my breath though since it is looking like it may be as long as next spring before they even announce something, if we're lucky.
Competition is good. I only hope Nikon has been working on something new to respond. It would benefit everyone.
Posted by Scott Fricke on September 17, 2008 at 12:28 PM
Another feature no one has been mentioning, or I missed it, is the 920,000 pixel LCD screen, this is the same specs as the new D90 screen and it is incredible, especially if using Live View and zooming in to nail the focus.
Posted by Jesse Speer on September 17, 2008 at 12:37 PM
21mp certainly does me good. It's a big factor when making large prints - at least for someone who obsesses over tiny details as I do. Even though my current range of lenses can't truly take advantage of the 1dsIII sensor, there is a noticeable improvement in the details of larger prints (tree branches and so forth). At least when compared to 5d images - my former camera body.
But yeah, I generally think current bodies are way ahead of lens options - due to the nature of the great megapixel race in recent years.
I wouldn't even bother with 21mp unless you have the need to make large prints ... beyond 16x24 or 20x30. But there are lots of reasons to love the new 5dII - apart from the pixel count. If you're a Canon user, it's exciting. As is the 50d, for most photographers.
As a 21mp user, I was really hoping for a serious improvement in lens options from Canon. The new 24mm prime may be really nice. But if I were shopping now, I would build a system around Nikon's new 14-24mm. Wait to see what Nikon announces soon, Tony.
Posted by Guy Schmickle on September 17, 2008 at 12:38 PM
LIke Todd has said...for a landscape photographer this is a pretty sweet camera and I will definitely be upgrading to it. My only nit is about the AF as I've found the inability of the outer AF points to lock on to a subject very frustrating at times (especially in lower light situations). I was really disappointed that this wasn't remedied (not by more focus points, but better cross type sensors), but it's not a deal breaker for me. Everything else looks great for what a landscape photographer needs.
Posted by Erik Stensland on September 17, 2008 at 12:53 PM
If most lenses can't resolve 21mp then what degree of improvement is there in moving from 12 to 21mp? Or said differently, how much detail is lost on the new camera due to lens restrictions with Canon's L lens series? I'm one of those big print guys who want as much detail as I can afford. The 21mp looks really good but not if it won't give me much advantage with current lenses.
Camera looks great and I will get one sometime soon as I can find some extra scratch. 21MP - WOW - but I do wonder which lenses are able to accurately resolve to a sensor that fine. Personally, I never consider my DSLR a 'large print' camera and always use my 4x5 images for anything greater than 16x20 - 20x24. But all of the other features of this camera make it interesting for me.
I am still really happy with my 5D v1 and hopefully Canon will get it on a nice rebate program sometime soon.
RichieV
Posted by Guy Schmickle on September 17, 2008 at 1:35 PM
Canon has plenty of lenses that'll resolve the details, they just have a problem with their ultra-wides. I know a number of people with 1DS3s that are happy with the large prints they are producing with their wide and tele lenses (i.e. 24-70, 70-200, etc.). While the 16-35 didn't turn out to be all that it could be (especially for the $$), with careful processing you can still come away with decent prints. Besides, if an image is outstanding and catches the eye (in terms of comp and lighting) of a potential buyer, very few are gonna pixel peep at the corners to see if the detail is acceptable enough. That's my opinion anyway.
Posted by Erik Aagaard on September 17, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Can you guys help me understand? If current lenses can't resolve to 21mp, then it makes sense to me that the extra mp wouldn't improve image quality.
But if current lenses are capable of resolving more than the 12.8mp of the 5d, then wouldn't image quality still improve in the 5dII? Maybe not as much as the extra mp would imply, but certainly some improvement should be seen.
Is the real question, then, this: where is the resolution threshold for my current lenses (and / or lenses available for the EOS mount?) If it's over 12.8 mp, then I should get more resolution in my images from the new 5dII than I did from the 5d.
I am a digital neophyte (I still lug my RB67 around!), so please set me straight if I've got it all wrong.
Erik
Posted by John Mumaw on September 17, 2008 at 1:54 PM
Besides, if an image is outstanding and catches the eye (in terms of comp and lighting) of a potential buyer, very few are gonna pixel peep at the corners to see if the detail is acceptable enough. That's my opinion anyway.
Bingo....I think you nailed it, Guy.
Marc Adamus' and Jesse Speer's work with a large resolution camera puts that issue to rest for me.
Posted by Todd Caudle on September 17, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Look at it this way: I recently bought four 8-gig CF cards for my 5D, only to learn after the fact that the 5D won't give you 8G from an 8G card. (turns out to be something like 7G) In other words, it's still an advantage over a 4G card, but comes up short nonetheless. (I returned the cards...)
The same will likely be true of a 21MP sensor with lenses that can't resolve as well as the sensor. It's still going to give you better image quality than the 12.8MP 5D, but the lenses will likely come up a bit short. However, I will buy a 5D-II because there's a promise (or maybe just an inevitable conclusion) that Canon will have some new and improved glass in the not-too-distant future. And there is that new Zeiss ZE lens line that will make having 21MP worthwhile.
But there's enough about this new camera to like beyond MP count that makes it something I want.
Posted by Joshua Hardin on September 17, 2008 at 2:04 PM
There is no answer easy answer to the: Do large sensors outresolve lenses question which the Eriks and Rich pose. Luminous Landscape did a very complex investigation into this issue HERE and basically concluded that larger sensors are approaching the diffraction limit of current lenses, but it depends on the lens (few specific lenses were talked about in the article, sorry). HOWEVER, you can't examine this issue solely by judging the sharpness of your prints. Like Guy and Todd said, there are MANY other features to consider when buying a camera.
This is getting a little off-topic now, but I would add that the strength of anti-aliasing filters in digital cameras also has a lot to do with sharpness. I remember Todd posted a link to the site HERE a while back which compared a Nikon D200 with the filter on, and with it removed. AA filters are added to prevent moire patterns that appear when certain textures are photographed, but to do this they create a slight blurring effect which negatively affects the sharpness on all photos. This blur needs to be corrected with tools like smart sharpen in PS. Just pointing out there is more to this than the ability of lenses to keep up with large sensor resolution.
IMO, for sharpness concerns, my dream landscape setup would be having a combination of: a camera with a mp count of around ~20mp (so you can have a large file to begin with), a weak AA filter in the camera (or have it possibly removed, you can add blur in PS if moire appears) and quality lenses such as the Nikon 14-24.
Posted by Erik Aagaard on September 17, 2008 at 2:08 PM
John, I'm glad you pointed out the stunning work of many photographers who are currently using the little ol' EOS 5d with its measly megapixel count! But that's a whole other discussion...
Todd - thanks for confirming my understanding. You make a good point -- Canon almost has put the cart before the horse, forcing itself to address lens quality in the near future.
Posted by Erik Aagaard on September 17, 2008 at 2:12 PM
John, I'm glad you pointed out the stunning work of many photographers who are currently using the little ol' EOS 5d with its measly megapixel count! But that's a whole other discussion...
Todd - thanks for confirming my understanding. You make a good point -- Canon almost has put the cart before the horse, forcing itself to address lens quality in the near future.
Posted by Morris McClung on September 17, 2008 at 2:20 PM
No one is addressing the fact that I bought a 5d just 4 months ago. It took me that long to get the price down to where I could afford it. Actually, I already knew this new model was due soon, but would still be out of my price range for a long time, so I opted for the "old" model. My current computer won't handle storage or processing speed for that many megapixels anyway, and that is even more expenditure. I got my 5d on e-bay for $1800 brand new out of the box with a canon usa warranty.
Posted by Jesse Speer on September 17, 2008 at 2:42 PM
I happen to believe that there's an over-emphasis on this "resolving" issue - and how it really impacts our photography. Just an opinion based upon my own experience. Technically, it's a fact - that most lenses can't resolve 21MP. But an increase in resolution from 12MP to 21MP DOES make a difference in fine details in the types of images we shoot around here - if you have good lenses (not even the finest lenses). Although upgrading lenses to the finest lenses currently available make a 21MP body upgrade seriously worthwhile. These are my conclusions, after evaluating my own prints that I make here at home on my 24" printer. I don't know that I can quantify the improvement. And the image quality aesthetic varies wildly from person to person. (And I wish I still had the test images/prints I made of the outside of my house when I had both cameras and various lenses.)
My latest camera doesn't make me take better photos (although it does make life easier in some ways), but my latest photos sure make ME happy. And I feel more confident in selling very large prints when the occasion arises. In fact, I've reached a degree of happiness where I am finally 100% satisfied with 20x30 prints from the dSLR format. I'm so freakin' anal about fine detail. And when a few of my clients ask for 6 foot prints from time to time, the fine details will look better when magnified to that degree. It takes me to a certain "peace of mind" plateau for the majority of prints I make.
Yeah, I know I'm not getting the max out of my sensor. Tests, like those at 16-9.net prove this. It's a shame that these large Canon sensors can't be paired with typical Canon "L" offerings that fully takes advantage of the resolution. Using a Nikon 14-24mm on a 1dsIII makes this painfully obvious. But one has to match the best image quality they can afford with the shooting style they prefer. I love the image quality I'm getting, but more importantly, the flexibility of zoom and a light camera bag - with lenses I can easily take hiking.
I'll recommend that you go out shooting with someone who has 21MP. Slap your favorite lenses on both cameras, take the RAW files home and make a couple large prints to judge for yourself. Better yet, get your hands on a high end Zeiss/Leica lens for further comparison. Check out the gamut of image quality vs. the gear you can afford/want to carry and decide what's best for you. There's plenty of 21MP users around the forum here who might be up for such a comparison in Colorado?
In the end, I'd strongly recommend considering the quality of your lenses before upgrading to a 21MP body - if resolution is your main concern. Alternatively, that upgrade money could also buy some FINE glass. You'll have those lenses much longer than a camera body.
Morris,
I'm with you. I actually sold my Rebel kit to get D80 which had brighter viewfinder and slightly better ergonomics. I knew that I won't be doing any serious landscape photography for the next two years at the time (workload, kid expected at home etc).
Now the time has come to take the plunge and buy a 5D, and I think it will serve me fine for some time to come. I contemplated D300 route however FF is attractive. What u think?
Posted by Joshua Hardin on September 17, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Nicely said Jesse.
Prashant, I'm using a Nikon D300 for my job and I love almost everything about it. But, like you, I have an urge for something FF (I like to shoot wide angles) and with larger file capabilities for my personal gear.
Posted by Morris McClung on September 17, 2008 at 3:03 PM
I waited for the prices to come down on the 5d just because I've wanted a FF since they came out. I love using wide angles.
Posted by Craig Schultz on September 17, 2008 at 3:07 PM
This camera has the right features at the market that it's intended for. A "1 trick pony" is a complete misnomer, as anyone who studied the actual differences is aware.
If 4 FPS isn't fast enough and 9 "lame" AF points and 6 Assist AF points aren't enough, then one of the 1d series cameras is obviously what you need.
John, while saying the new 5D is a "1 trick pony" may have gone a little to far, I think it's closer to truth then the other way around. I wouldn't want to use it for sports of any kind unless the AF performance is much higher than the old camera.
The buy one of the 1D series cameras is a not an option for me; way to expensive/overpriced and large for my tastes. Unlike most Americans, I actually believe in value for my money and don't part with it on something unless I think it provides what I need. I was hoping the new 5D would be the long asked for EOS 3D, but alas we have to wait another 3 years
I respect your opinion however, and hopefully you see where I'm coming from also.
Craig: Your disappointment mirrors much that I've seen on other forums. The giddiness here is attributable to this being a forum visited by mostly landscape photographers, and I think this camera is perfect for that. Those who were expecting a huge upgrade in focus points and FPS rate were simply waiting for a different camera. I thought there'd be no way Canon would even approach within a mile of the 1Ds Mk-3's MP count, and figured they'd come out with something in the 16MP range to leave room for another upgrade in the (less-than-three-years-away) future. Instead, they've produced a truly monumental upgrade in image quality potential. I'm pretty happy with the 24x36's and a few 30x45's I get with my current 5D. What the heck are the capabilities of a more than 50% increase in MP count going to be? I can't wait to find out!!!
Todd, I do agree this will be a really good, though expensive, landscape camera. If you have the glass to support the resolution (no Canon wide angles will handle it unfortunately), it should be a great option to check out. I'll continue waiting for the EOS 3D or maybe even the rumored Nikon D800@24MPix. We all know Nikon won't skimp on the body portion of the camera equation like Canon always does. The Canon sensors are good, but others are close enough now days, so having better bodies is tipping the balance to other companies in my opinion.
Posted by Don Grall on September 17, 2008 at 3:26 PM
I'm just getting to the point of realizing that I need to sell my 1DMkII at 8.3mp, since I haven't used it in over 18 months. It's just hard to sell something I really, really like. Anybody need 8fps? Maybe I could package it with my 5D !
Posted by Bryan Pezman on September 17, 2008 at 3:40 PM
Just from my own personal experience with my glass in front of the 1DsMIII
The 35mm f1.4L, the 135 f2, and my 400mm f2.8L handle the 21 megapixel very well.
The 70-200 f2.8L, 16-35 f2.8IIL, 180mm 3.5L Macro and 50mm f1.4L are average,
The 24-70 f2.8L, 24 2.8L TS-E, and 100-400 3.5-5.6L are very poor.
By the time Canon is ready to release the new 1dsMark IV 39 megapixel, they are gonna have a whole heap of lenses that can not handle the IQ. We've hit the bottleneck and it wouldnt suprise me for a second if Canon has to redesign entirely for a medium-format system entirely for the 1D series
Posted by Scott Bacon on September 17, 2008 at 3:57 PM
It has been interesting to read people's responses to the announcement and specs, here and elsewhere on the 'net. Is your glass half empty, or half full?
The 5D Mark II will make a fine upgrade from my 30D. And the additional megapixels will lessen the hurt of not having the time to shoot my 4x5 as much as I'd like to...
Posted by Morris McClung on September 17, 2008 at 4:00 PM
Craig,
I see where you are coming from. Although I'm not sure the 5d is just a landscape camera. I understand a vast number of portrait and wedding photogs are using it because of it's light weight and large resolution. I even know of a couple myself. Of course they probably aren't interested in a nature forum, nor for the uses you wish from a camera.
Posted by Rick Dunn on September 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM
Very compelling. I'm hoping Nikon announces a D3X before Christmas, otherwise, I may be switching to the Dark Side.
Scott - that was my thinking, too. The megapixels, plus the very infrequent LF shooting I was able to pull off, convinced me to sell the 4x5. I recently sold the last of the LF gear and actually got back about 95% of what I paid for it 4 years ago.
Posted by Jody Grigg on September 17, 2008 at 7:06 PM
FYI folks - Amazon is taking pre-orders now on the new 5DmkII.
Posted by John Mumaw on September 17, 2008 at 7:12 PM
John, I'm glad you pointed out the stunning work of many photographers who are currently using the little ol' EOS 5d with its measly megapixel count! But that's a whole other discussion...
Ummmm....I was referring to stunning work done by photographers who are currently using the big ol' 1DsMkIII, which has a 21 MP sensor.
Posted by Roger Rouch on September 17, 2008 at 7:47 PM
It looks to me like the 5DII could become the new gold standard for digital landscape photographers. Though I wonder how many will be lured by the hype and end up with more camera than their end product requires. I can make very nice 16X20's with my 5D and have squeezed some decent larger prints from 5D files. No doubt the higher resolution will offer improvements, and for those making routine large prints this will be a great advantage, but with the extra margin of improvement for me I can't see the justified expense. Maybe a year from now Canon will be offering some rebates and a lower price and I'll think again. (And after today's stock market dive, I might be able to trade my 401K for one straight across).
Posted by Jack Garrett on September 18, 2008 at 12:49 AM
Only thing I dont like about it is they are tryin to make a movie camera too...makes it sound more like a point and shoot instead of a professional level camera. Other than that, everything else sounds great.
Jack
Posted by Jack Garrett on September 18, 2008 at 1:01 AM
Jody...can you email me your credit card number so I can order one?...Lol
Jack
Posted by Mike Horn on September 18, 2008 at 11:10 AM
So what about the new EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM, that is meant for the 5DmkII, if they made it for that, wouldn't it handle the 21mp sensor?
Posted by Erik Aagaard on September 18, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Ummmm....I was referring to stunning work done by photographers who are currently using the big ol' 1DsMkIII, which has a 21 MP sensor.
D'oh! I was thinking specifically of a number of Marc Adamus' images I've seen in the past that were taken with the 5d.
Sorry for the misunderstanding -- but I still think it's easy to get caught up in the megapixel wars and lose sight of the fact that just because a new, undeniably better camera comes out, it doesn't mean that the former version suddenly is chopped liver.
Discussion
65 replieshttp://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091705canon_5dmarkII.asp#press
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=17662
Not only that, but think about shooting elk in rut in Rocky, and being able to switch to HD video mode. How's that for a keepsake option?! Even though I can't afford the upgrade right now, I'm very excited about this.
(Can you tell I'm excited? Geez, I was hitting the refresh button while on the dpreview site as if I was waiting for an eBay auction to end.)
Don't know how much it'll sell for yet, but I think I'd be pissed if I just spent $8K on a 1Ds Mk-3. I know those who want full weather sealing and high speed fps wouldn't be, but as a landscape shooter, I would be.
EDIT:
The 10.8 and 14.8 numbers are megaBYTES, not megapixels. Calm down, Caudle, you're gonna give yourself a freakin' heart attack.
EDIT #2:
sRAW sizes are 5.2mp and 10mp...
UPDATE: Body-only prices: US: $ 2,699
Not too shabby I'd say for the upgrades!!!
Another site is reporting $2699. I've checked my work email and haven't received anything official from Canon USA yet (didn't really expect to), but hope to have dealer pricing and availability from them in the morning.
"Canon EF lenses
(35mm-equivalent focal length is approx. 1.6x the lens focal length)"
It's a FF sensor, magnification factor should be 1:1.
"Compatible with over 60 Canon EF/EF-S lenses and most EOS System accessories.
EF & EF-S Lenses
The EOS 5D Mark II is compatible with all Canon lenses in the EF lineup, ranging from ultra-wide angle to super telephoto lenses. Canon lenses employ advanced optical expertise and micron-precision engineering to deliver unprecedented performance in all facets of the photographic process. Special optical technologies, such as Aspherical, ultra-low dispersion, or fluorite elements are featured in the universally acclaimed L-series lenses. And Canon's Optical Image Stabilizer technology is featured in select lenses to minimize the effect of camera shake. Through Canon lenses, photographers can truly maximize the quality and liberating performance of the EOS 5D Mark II."
EF-S lenses? Are they serious???
If $2699 is indeed the price, this is even more monumental.
Wonder how good the weather sealing will be?
I'm still undecided on the whole live view thing, but I guess it's something I can learn to love. I wish the LCD was movable, for low-angle shots.
I wonder if somehow the EF-S lenses are only compatible with the sRAW settings, like maybe those use less of the sensor, and can therefore accommodate the smaller image circles of the EF-S lenses. Nah, can't be, then you'd have to have alternate markings on the focus screen, etc. I guess we can just stay tuned to learn more about this.
Better start loading up on 8GB cards!
Who's gonna be first with a new toy?
OK, now that ive calmed down, here's my question: has technology slowed to the point where i would get a good investment from this for say, 5 years or more? Granted, i bought my 5D after it was already getting old, but to see it being blown out of the water after only shooting full-frame for a year is kinda sobering.
For the majority of the market, this is great news. For those of us 1DsMarkIII owners, not so much. I like my 1DsMIII camera dont get me wrong, good feel, weather-sealing, good metering and all that jazz. But to have a professional body upstaged less than one year after its announcement by a camera that will cost roughly 1/3rd of the price and have BETTER digic IV technology, good LCD and very respectable ISO speed options at only 1 frame less per second (not that my 1dsMIII accurately shoots at 5fps anyway)
Canon has me pissed beyond all measure as a pro shooter. Why cut into your flagship model like this? Oy, serves me right for adopting tech too early.
And on a side note, I am glad that they upgraded the 24mm f1.4L lens to the MkII since it badly needed an upgrade BUT frankly as a landscape shooter, I cant help but be severely disappointed that they did not announce a new TS-E lens or an upgrade to the 100-400 as was rumored. Anyway, end of my rant, back to the 5DII love.
want to get rid of the 5D? Let me know how many actuations and the price.
Pros:
21Mpix - nice, but not using the latest sensor tech in the 50D sensor. Sad really.
Movie Mode - cool new feature, but really how much is this worth $100-200 tops as the same feature is in the $500 PowerShot SX1 IS just introduced.
IR remote control capable - about dang time!
Cons:
Doesn't have full weather sealing, just environmental protection. Not up to 1D or D3/D700 specs. - bad for landscape photogs.
No built in flash with manual control and commander capabilities. - I take lots of flash photos with my family
No intervolometer - it costs nothing, why isn't it included...
Same lame AF unit - perhaps slightly better; number one complaint with the 5D and will most likely be with this one too. This isn't necessary for landscapes, but did I mention I have kids that don't like to sit still for photos?
Slow FPS - kids again...wildlife...
I'm sure it will be a nice camera, but I was hoping for much more than this. Something along the lines of this sensor in a D700 body for this price. This camera appears to be a 1 trick pony; high resolution only. Did it really take them 3 years to improve to this???
I'd say it's about $600-800 too expensive given the competition today.
Here's to hoping Nikon comes out with a D3x @ $3500
The sad part is, this camera has to stay competitive for 3 more years given Canon's track record of releases of cameras at this level; I just don't see that happening given it's specs. It barely does so now.
Bummer,
Craig
From a spec sheet:
• Canon EF lens mount (does not support EF-S lenses)
This camera has the right features at the market that it's intended for. A "1 trick pony" is a complete misnomer, as anyone who studied the actual differences is aware.
If 4 FPS isn't fast enough and 9 "lame" AF points and 6 Assist AF points aren't enough, then one of the 1d series cameras is obviously what you need.
I feel no such reservations this time around. Sure, it would be great to have 21MP for capturing the fine details in a Colorado autumn aspen forest, but the current 5D produces such great images that I am comfortable waiting til next year to pick one up, thereby leaving my kidneys right where they belong.
Craig: Your disappointment mirrors much that I've seen on other forums. The giddiness here is attributable to this being a forum visited by mostly landscape photographers, and I think this camera is perfect for that. Those who were expecting a huge upgrade in focus points and FPS rate were simply waiting for a different camera. I thought there'd be no way Canon would even approach within a mile of the 1Ds Mk-3's MP count, and figured they'd come out with something in the 16MP range to leave room for another upgrade in the (less-than-three-years-away) future. Instead, they've produced a truly monumental upgrade in image quality potential. I'm pretty happy with the 24x36's and a few 30x45's I get with my current 5D. What the heck are the capabilities of a more than 50% increase in MP count going to be? I can't wait to find out!!!
I don't currently shoot with Canon, but this camera is beginning to make me at least think twice about which system I'd like to upgrade to soon since I am also "browsing" the market and do not have a whole lot invested in lenses yet. It seems Nikon has a slight advantage in the quality of lenses (the Nikon 14-24 looks exceptionally sharp), but it doesn't have any bodies with a sensor resolution to take full advantage of them. Many Canon owners are complaining about the opposite, good selection of high-mp bodies but lenses that are in need of upgrades.
The new 5D has its drawbacks, as Craig & John mentioned (the AF system looks kind of lame). It is not the perfect camera for everyone. But the price isn't too bad when you condsider the 1Ds MkIII was first priced at around $8,000 (Bryan I feel your pain) and Sony's A900 is going to be about $1,000 more than the 5D II for three more megapixels. WTF Nikon, where is your response to this?
I'm pretty frustrated that four of Nikon's cameras right now (D300, D700, D3, D90) have a 12 mp sensor. I could care less about the D90 since it is essentially a D300 with video capabilities added. The D700 is not a true competitor to the 5D mk II, like the D3 and D300 it is instead nicely placed for editorial, wildlife and sports photographers who need more fps and better noise performance at higher ISOs. Don't get me wrong, these are excellent Nikon cameras, but for landscapes, I'd like to have larger files and good performance at LOW ISOs.
If Nikon wants to compete in the landscape/advertising/commercial market, they need to get their act together and release something with more than 12 mp. I'm getting sick of using Genuine Fractals every time I'd like to print something over 12x18. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that by Photokina (or the end of the year at least) Nikon will surprise us with a long-rumored D3x, D800 or something for the segment of photographers that are not currently being served by the D3/D300/D700/D90. I'm not holding my breath though since it is looking like it may be as long as next spring before they even announce something, if we're lucky.
Competition is good. I only hope Nikon has been working on something new to respond. It would benefit everyone.
But yeah, I generally think current bodies are way ahead of lens options - due to the nature of the great megapixel race in recent years.
I wouldn't even bother with 21mp unless you have the need to make large prints ... beyond 16x24 or 20x30. But there are lots of reasons to love the new 5dII - apart from the pixel count. If you're a Canon user, it's exciting. As is the 50d, for most photographers.
As a 21mp user, I was really hoping for a serious improvement in lens options from Canon. The new 24mm prime may be really nice. But if I were shopping now, I would build a system around Nikon's new 14-24mm. Wait to see what Nikon announces soon, Tony.
I am still really happy with my 5D v1 and hopefully Canon will get it on a nice rebate program sometime soon.
RichieV
But if current lenses are capable of resolving more than the 12.8mp of the 5d, then wouldn't image quality still improve in the 5dII? Maybe not as much as the extra mp would imply, but certainly some improvement should be seen.
Is the real question, then, this: where is the resolution threshold for my current lenses (and / or lenses available for the EOS mount?) If it's over 12.8 mp, then I should get more resolution in my images from the new 5dII than I did from the 5d.
I am a digital neophyte (I still lug my RB67 around!), so please set me straight if I've got it all wrong.
Erik
Bingo....I think you nailed it, Guy.
Marc Adamus' and Jesse Speer's work with a large resolution camera puts that issue to rest for me.
The same will likely be true of a 21MP sensor with lenses that can't resolve as well as the sensor. It's still going to give you better image quality than the 12.8MP 5D, but the lenses will likely come up a bit short. However, I will buy a 5D-II because there's a promise (or maybe just an inevitable conclusion) that Canon will have some new and improved glass in the not-too-distant future. And there is that new Zeiss ZE lens line that will make having 21MP worthwhile.
But there's enough about this new camera to like beyond MP count that makes it something I want.
This is getting a little off-topic now, but I would add that the strength of anti-aliasing filters in digital cameras also has a lot to do with sharpness. I remember Todd posted a link to the site HERE a while back which compared a Nikon D200 with the filter on, and with it removed. AA filters are added to prevent moire patterns that appear when certain textures are photographed, but to do this they create a slight blurring effect which negatively affects the sharpness on all photos. This blur needs to be corrected with tools like smart sharpen in PS. Just pointing out there is more to this than the ability of lenses to keep up with large sensor resolution.
IMO, for sharpness concerns, my dream landscape setup would be having a combination of: a camera with a mp count of around ~20mp (so you can have a large file to begin with), a weak AA filter in the camera (or have it possibly removed, you can add blur in PS if moire appears) and quality lenses such as the Nikon 14-24.
Todd - thanks for confirming my understanding. You make a good point -- Canon almost has put the cart before the horse, forcing itself to address lens quality in the near future.
Todd - thanks for confirming my understanding. You make a good point -- Canon almost has put the cart before the horse, forcing itself to address lens quality in the near future.
My latest camera doesn't make me take better photos (although it does make life easier in some ways), but my latest photos sure make ME happy. And I feel more confident in selling very large prints when the occasion arises. In fact, I've reached a degree of happiness where I am finally 100% satisfied with 20x30 prints from the dSLR format. I'm so freakin' anal about fine detail. And when a few of my clients ask for 6 foot prints from time to time, the fine details will look better when magnified to that degree. It takes me to a certain "peace of mind" plateau for the majority of prints I make.
Yeah, I know I'm not getting the max out of my sensor. Tests, like those at 16-9.net prove this. It's a shame that these large Canon sensors can't be paired with typical Canon "L" offerings that fully takes advantage of the resolution. Using a Nikon 14-24mm on a 1dsIII makes this painfully obvious. But one has to match the best image quality they can afford with the shooting style they prefer. I love the image quality I'm getting, but more importantly, the flexibility of zoom and a light camera bag - with lenses I can easily take hiking.
I'll recommend that you go out shooting with someone who has 21MP. Slap your favorite lenses on both cameras, take the RAW files home and make a couple large prints to judge for yourself. Better yet, get your hands on a high end Zeiss/Leica lens for further comparison. Check out the gamut of image quality vs. the gear you can afford/want to carry and decide what's best for you. There's plenty of 21MP users around the forum here who might be up for such a comparison in Colorado?
In the end, I'd strongly recommend considering the quality of your lenses before upgrading to a 21MP body - if resolution is your main concern. Alternatively, that upgrade money could also buy some FINE glass. You'll have those lenses much longer than a camera body.
I'm with you. I actually sold my Rebel kit to get D80 which had brighter viewfinder and slightly better ergonomics. I knew that I won't be doing any serious landscape photography for the next two years at the time (workload, kid expected at home etc).
Now the time has come to take the plunge and buy a 5D, and I think it will serve me fine for some time to come. I contemplated D300 route however FF is attractive. What u think?
Prashant, I'm using a Nikon D300 for my job and I love almost everything about it. But, like you, I have an urge for something FF (I like to shoot wide angles) and with larger file capabilities for my personal gear.
John, while saying the new 5D is a "1 trick pony" may have gone a little to far, I think it's closer to truth then the other way around. I wouldn't want to use it for sports of any kind unless the AF performance is much higher than the old camera.
The buy one of the 1D series cameras is a not an option for me; way to expensive/overpriced and large for my tastes. Unlike most Americans, I actually believe in value for my money and don't part with it on something unless I think it provides what I need. I was hoping the new 5D would be the long asked for EOS 3D, but alas we have to wait another 3 years
I respect your opinion however, and hopefully you see where I'm coming from also.
Todd, I do agree this will be a really good, though expensive, landscape camera. If you have the glass to support the resolution (no Canon wide angles will handle it unfortunately), it should be a great option to check out. I'll continue waiting for the EOS 3D or maybe even the rumored Nikon D800@24MPix. We all know Nikon won't skimp on the body portion of the camera equation like Canon always does. The Canon sensors are good, but others are close enough now days, so having better bodies is tipping the balance to other companies in my opinion.
The 35mm f1.4L, the 135 f2, and my 400mm f2.8L handle the 21 megapixel very well.
The 70-200 f2.8L, 16-35 f2.8IIL, 180mm 3.5L Macro and 50mm f1.4L are average,
The 24-70 f2.8L, 24 2.8L TS-E, and 100-400 3.5-5.6L are very poor.
By the time Canon is ready to release the new 1dsMark IV 39 megapixel, they are gonna have a whole heap of lenses that can not handle the IQ. We've hit the bottleneck and it wouldnt suprise me for a second if Canon has to redesign entirely for a medium-format system entirely for the 1D series
The 5D Mark II will make a fine upgrade from my 30D. And the additional megapixels will lessen the hurt of not having the time to shoot my 4x5 as much as I'd like to...
I see where you are coming from. Although I'm not sure the 5d is just a landscape camera. I understand a vast number of portrait and wedding photogs are using it because of it's light weight and large resolution. I even know of a couple myself. Of course they probably aren't interested in a nature forum, nor for the uses you wish from a camera.
Scott - that was my thinking, too. The megapixels, plus the very infrequent LF shooting I was able to pull off, convinced me to sell the 4x5. I recently sold the last of the LF gear and actually got back about 95% of what I paid for it 4 years ago.
Ummmm....I was referring to stunning work done by photographers who are currently using the big ol' 1DsMkIII, which has a 21 MP sensor.
Jack
Jack
D'oh! I was thinking specifically of a number of Marc Adamus' images I've seen in the past that were taken with the 5d.
Sorry for the misunderstanding -- but I still think it's easy to get caught up in the megapixel wars and lose sight of the fact that just because a new, undeniably better camera comes out, it doesn't mean that the former version suddenly is chopped liver.