UPDATED: 5D MKII Sensor Question Only YOU Guys Can Answer

I apologize, this question is gear, not image critique, and probably belongs in General Discussion, but the 1Ds MKIII and 5D shooters are plentiful here, and it pertains to them.

Ok, question: one of the reasons the original 5D has such good IQ is the large 8.2 micron photocells on the 12.8mp sensor. They grab a lot of light. The new 5D MKII has smaller cells (6.4 um I think) just due to physically fitting 21 million cells on the new sensor. Smaller cells usually equal more noise. I believe the cells are the same size on the 1Ds III (the processing technology I imagine makes up for all that). So for those who have used a 5D and then upgraded to a 1Ds III, is there anyhing about the 21mp sensor's image quality that is lacking, that you miss from the 5D, or has the upgrade to the 21mp sensor been hugely better?

Thanks in advance!

(Canon better get the new 5D right, i.e., no focusing issues, etc... I sold my 5D today on ebay while it was still worth over $1700. No camera for 3 months now! )

Paul, here is the review and video from Vincent Laforte ---- recommended by Michael Reichman.
http://www.vincentlaforet.com He just happened to walk into Canon US headquarters the day they released pre-prod versions, and he had the great fortune to play with the 5DMII for a very shourt time. He shot for 12 hours and then had to return it. This camera is what I've been waiting for. I was looking this morning for all those little accessories I always get: Battery Grip, extra battery, possibly Kirk L bracket. Does anyone know if the old ones will fit the new model? I doubt it, but it's worth asking.

Again: Check out the video by http://www.vincentlaforet.com/ His blog made me lust after the camera. http:/blog.vincentlaforet.com You will like what you read!

My 5D is on the market with an offer pending. When that person makes up his mind, and he will quickly, I'll let you guys know.

Hi Paul,

That´s a question I'm interest to. I would like to know somebody feedback about who have used a 5D and then upgraded to a 1Ds III.
Let's wait for the answers :smile

Pedro, hitting refresh actually reposts your message. Try going back to the topic list and then rejoining....

I found the 5D MKII's specs on the Canon Japan site, including the above graphic to explain it all. Since it was in Japanese, I ran downstairs and had our lead engineer (who's Japanese) translate for me. The reason why Canon is pulling better image quality out of the smaller 6.4 micron cells is due the way they narrowed the gap BETWEEN the sensor cells. This means much less wasted light falling in-between. The graphic shows how it works: new 5D on the left, old 5D on the right. The engineering to create such a small gap is pretty mind-blowing.

Actually, I probably didn't need to hunt this down or even post the question... looking at the stuff that 1Ds owners like Kah Kit or Marc Adamus are turning out shows that the 21mp Canon sensor is of incredible low-noise image quality. Of course the glass and the technique and the post-processing skills all add to that equation, but those guys haven't been complaining about the initial images they download off the sensor. If they were not up to par, it probably would have been mentioned.

OK, back to our viewfinders, enough techno-babble.

There is a great article explaining all this in this months Digital ProPhoto mag......

Thanks for the heads up Darren....I'll be interested to read that article because I still don't believe them other than looking at Marc and Kah's photos. I did check out the sample pics on DPPreview, and the pictures were totally useable up to about ISO 3200. Fell apart at 6400. This is all in comparison to my very noisy 20d, which gets noisy at 200.

I can't wait to test out the 50d because of this 'gapless' technology. My plan is to pick up a v1 5d if nothing else, but if the improved noise reduction and gapless thing really work.....and the image quality is superb still, then I may pick up the 50d and stick with the crop factor.
New v1 5d sure would be nice too......

LOL! Yep Darren, Tim Grey's article on there is what got me wondering and spawned this whole thread. I already had my 5D on Ebay since last week. After reading that article I started to wonder if I was going to lose the superb IQ of the classic 5D. Too late now, somebody nabbed my 5D off ebay yesterday before I could decide what to do (I considered pulling the auction to think about it more). Oh well, I'm in for the race now, hope that 5D MKII is all it's cracked up to be.

In case anyone is curious and is thinking of selling their 5D, I got $1739 for mine, pristine shape, box, manuals and a SquareTrade warranty still remaining for 2 years. But while my auction was running, a FLURRY of more auctions were posted this past week with people trying to sell them off for $1500-$1600. It got crazy!

Whoa.

I just downloaded some of the full-size samples from DPReview. First I was blown away by this massive image I'm moving around while at 100%. Then I started looking at the detail. This camera is nuts, I think it's from another planet. Maybe I'm too easily impressed, but THAT image quality is worth waiting for. Chris is right, above 3200 ISO the images go south real quick (25,600 looks like a camera phone), but since 90% of my stuff is on a tripod, no issue there.

Chris, I just looked around on your site, and if you can pull that incredible work out of a 20D, the v1 5D will do you just fine!

The 6.4 micron photolenses with the super narrow gap work great. This thing is going to be a full-frame shooter's affordable dream come true.

First off - no problem at all having this discussion on this forum. Sure posting/critiquing images is our primary concern but this is OUR forum to build community and share thoughts, ideas, questions, musings and even idle ramblings. So no harm no foul Paul.

Second - on to the meat of the question at hand. I prefer to not allow myself to get all caught up in pixel peeping. I instead listen to the reviews of other working photographers on how they feel a given camera body performs. And I see how their images look. I have several very trusted friends who also shoot professionally and if a given body/lens/gadget fits their needs than I take that very seriously.

I have every reason to believe that the Canon 5D Mark II is going to be an awesome addition to our gear bags at Ramblin Lamb. Being able to shoot not only awesome still images but ALSO amazing HD video using the full range of Canon lenses opens up all kinds of creative ideas!!

Here is a link to what Vincent Laforet created in one day with the Canon 5D Mark II:

http://vincentlaforet.com/ This is a high res video so let it download and ENJOY!! He used a wide range of lenses for this video all the way from a 14mm up to the mighty 500mm. An amazingly beautiful video in so many ways!

Damn it's a fun time to be a photographer!!!

The only thing that I would question is where diffraction becomes a problem. Being limited to F/11 with a crop sensor camera is one thing, being limited to F/11 with a FF camera would be a problem. I shoot my D700 with the 20mm a lot at F/16 and get 2' to infinity with hyperfocal focus.Diffraction is not a problem with 12mp's on a FF.

Thom Hogan said that 18mp's on a FF would be diffraction limited at F/13 for what it's worth...

Hopefully no one minds a repost of a link from the first Mark II thread.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

Just a brief tutorial on diffraction. I've been having the discussion with a friend of mine who is in the silicon industry and an avid photographer. Based upon what he's read he made the following statement: <i>The interesting part is the pixel pitch vs pixel size labeling of the 5D vs. MkII. A quick calculation shows that for 5616 pixels x 6.4um is exactly the horizontal size of the sensor. So it’s not the pixel size but the size of the micro lens. Only a slight increase in the linear dimension of the lenses on the 5DmkII would get it back to close the size of the original 5D. I think people will be surprise how good this new sensor is.</i>

I hope he's right!

Second - on to the meat of the question at hand. I prefer to not allow myself to get all caught up in pixel peeping.

I think that's a great point. Cameras have gotten so good that the only technical issues left to discuss are becoming increasingly less relevant to the success of the image.

The diffraction at f/16 or f/22, while technically worse than at optimal aperatures, is insignificant as long as the image itself is actually compelling.

I don't think there's a camera on the market that's not easily capable of producing stunning, technically excellent images... in the hands of a capable, creative photographer. Check out Jesse Speer's site; many of the images there were made with an Olympus C-8080 8MP point-n-shoot.

If I had the creative skills to compose images like that, I'd happily do it with a disposable camera!

Rick Dunn:
> I don't think there's a camera on the market that's not easily capable of producing stunning,
> technically excellent images... in the hands of a capable, creative photographer.

This is absolutely brilliant!
Rick, do you give me your release to use this quote in my signature? It can have your name on it?

Cezar - sure thing! Not sure you want to attribute it to me though. According to my wife, no one listens to what I say.

All the technical paperwork is fine, but if the images are soft at F/13, that is what's important to me.

Thom Hogan wrote that an 18mp FF sensor should see "diffraction fall off a cliff about f/13."

That doesn't sound very usable to me. So I guess we'll see.

When Marc gets back from his long trip I'm sure his real world experience with both units will be the most valueable input - I'll look forward to reading it.

Hi Ned, yea, I hope Marc chimes in, I'd like to hear first hand what the deal is.

I'm not so worried about the 5Dii, I'd need an adapter to put my lenses on it, but if/when Nikon up's the MP's on their FF, it's something to be considered.

Wow, this thread came alive!
OK, couple quick thoughts:
1) The initial view of the full-size images on DPReview were more than enough to make me not be concerned that I sold my 5D and am on Standby.
2) That video of Vincent Laforet's is amazing. It occurred to me that HD video shot with our pro glass makes a HUGE difference! I scoffed the idea of video on the 5D at first hearing; now the inspiration light got lit!
3) Softness from diffraction: I'm eager too, to hear what Marc would add, and Kah Kit also. One thing I noticed in some of Marc's work lately: he has mentioned blending two images for FG and BG sharpness. I got the hint he shot the FGs at maybe f/11 and then refocused on a far point and shot the 2nd image at the same f-stop, then blended the sharp sections in order to get a more large format effect of sharpness without the tilting bellows. Brilliant approach, but was that done because he saw softness at f/16? I hope he reads this post and pipes in when he gets back.

I'm resurrecting this one, simply out of excitment after renting the new EOS 50D this weekend (I know.....not quite on topic). If nothing else, I'm somewhat answering my own question about the 5D's sensor having 21 MP.
I did quite a few tests as best I could, comparing the 50D to the 20D. What's perplexed me is how the 50D's physically smaller sensor (15 MP) could have twice the pixels as the 20d (8MP), and not have horrendous noise.

The camera absolutely has much better dynamic range, much more detail is captured in the shadows especially; and more detail probably simply because there are more pixels. The noise reduction is actually better too. It's noticeably improved from ISO 200 up. I have just some of the comaparison pics on my flickr account if anybody's interested. The image below in particular shows even the difference at ISO 100. The image is straight out of camera with no sharpening or noise reduction.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/archi-hod/2974748903/

I'm not convinced that the clarity of detail is quite as good and clear as that of the original 5d, but it's only really noticeable at 1:1 viewing.
One more thing.....LIVE VIEW is incredibly useful....something I was ignorantly blowing off as a gimick:)

Chris - how do you find the autofocus speed/improvement between the 50D and the 20D? Is it really as much better as others say? (I didn't upgrade my 20D to the 30D or 40D so the difference should be much greater for me, I'd say).

Geoff, I can't really speak to that......didn't notice it being any better, but I've also not noticed many problems with the 20D as I really only shoot Architecture and Landscapes. The Live View is extremely helpful with manual focusing, or checking the autofocus. The 15 MP and the Live View is such an improvement over the 20D, I feel it more than justifies making the leap finally. (I didn't see much difference either with the 40D).

Thanks, Chris. My needs are mainly for birds. With the 20D my hit rate for birds in flight was very poor and I was hoping the 50D would be more helpful in that respect.

Geoff if you are serious about birds then you need to think about the Canon 1D Mark III which is the birder's primary tool! Stunning reaction times and 10 frames a second nails the shot! Not to mention that it's an awesome camera in many other respects!

And so here it is a year later, and all of the micro analyzing we all did seems so unimportant now, lol! The 5D2 is an insanely amazing device, the image quality is unreal, and the video world has gone totally nuts over this camera, with companies popping up all over that are making cages and rails and monitors to turn the 5D2 into this video-making machine.

The sensor is so good, my 17-40mm just went "blah" when I shot with it. I upgraded to the 16-35mm and the image quality continues to astound. I guess some lenses get overpowered or something. The lenses that have worked REALLY well that Ive tried/own are the 70-200mm/2.8, 100mm Macro, 50mm/1.4, and 16-35mm/2.8. They yawn at the 5D2 sensor, no out-resolving there! There are more obviously, but those are what I've tried. I wonder about the 24-105mm that comes with the 5D2... does is not perform well in low light like the 17-40mm did'nt?

Anyway, just reminiscing after a year! I doubt anyone will probably even see this post.

Back again, almost two years after the previous post. It's been nearly three years since Reverie blew our socks off. Video on the 5D2 has gone viral: the closing episode of House on May 17, 2010 was shot entirely on a 5D2; George Lucas is filming Red Tails with it (cockpit scenes) and his Director of Photography, Gale Tattersall, is giving clinincs on movie-making; Iron Man was 50% filmed with the 5D2; Shane Hurlbut (DP for Terminator Salvation) has added it as his second system for filming; various shows from 19 Kids and Counting to Rick Steves Travels use it for helicoptor aerials and low-light interior footage. Several companies such as Zacuto and Red Rock Micro have sprung up offering ALL kinds of rigs and jibs and dollies, plus electronic viewfinders and external field monitors that run off of the 5D2 HDMI port. Zeiss lenses has created an entire line of cinematic lenses designed for the 5D2 specifically for movie-making (much wider focus travel and increased optics). And folks, seriously, I'm just scratching the surface. Canon had no idea what they were producing! And after three years, it still sells for list price, IF you can find one in stock. Amazing.

By the way, the thing takes amazing stills, FYI.

OK, four years later, might as well toss up a post. Interesting history if not anything else. I now have the 5D Mark III, and it is a 5D2 with everything improved. The focusing, low light imagery and video capability are HUGELY better. But regardless of that, it's not the game changer. Whether people love Canon or get sick when the name is mentioned, the now-veteran 5D Mark 2 is probably the world's most famous DSLR ever made and changed photography and video forever. Not only have landscape shooters been buying it for affordable full frame, but wedding photogs have embraced the FF sensor and wonderful organic image quality. And it simply changed Hollywood and TV production forever, period, end of story. No other DSLR sold at list price for its product life that I know of. I got the 5D3 in October for $700 off list; that never happened with the 5D2 except for a few short sales during Black Friday/Christmas 2011. What does all this mean? Absolutely nothing, I'm the only one who will see this post, lol!