I'm thinking of buying a new printer to replace my ~ 4 year old Canon S9000. It's a 6 ink, non-archival printer that makes very pretty prints. I would like to be able to make beautiful 12x18" (maybe larger) in-house prints that I can sell as archival ~ and out-source larger prints because of the prohibitive cost of ink with LF printers. (and that I'm not currently a high-volume print seller)
Knowing that most of us love to talk about our gear, I would like to hear about the best printers and why you think they're great. I'd like to have a 17" wide with B&W and pano capability (roll), but may opt for a 13x19 with or without roll feed.
So, is anyone using a Epson 2880 or larger? A Canon ipf5100? Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Posted by Mel Ladewig on October 15, 2008 at 11:17 PM
Dave,
I can't speak for the 2880, but I've got the R1800 which is archival. The prints have been pretty good and they last.
My advice is to save your money for the 17" printer. You'll save a ton of money on ink in the long run. The 3800 is a great printer, so are the 4880 and Canon iPF5100. The advantage for the 3800 is the ability to print small sizes like 4X6 as well as the lighter weight. The advantage of the 5100 and 4880 are the ability to use larger ink carts to drive operating costs down even further.
I've looked at this very carefully and the 3800 is the hands down winner over the 2880 when you look at operating costs over the life of the printer. The cost difference between the printers is entirely made with larger ink carts.
That said, I have to wonder if there is a new 3800 on the horizon. Since the 3800 came out, the 4880/7880/9880 and 7900/9900 have been released.
If you'd like to query individuals, I know Kalin has the ipf5000 and Jesse mentioned that he purchased the 7880 some time ago.
Posted by Jesse Speer on October 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM
[Edit: Mel slipped in before me. I concur with his take.]
I've been researching and considering a desktop model for certain book/portfolio projects - where cut sheets are a necessity. So, I can offer some thoughts. (I use a 7880, and absolutely love it ... but it's horrible with small, cut sheets).
Realistically, I think image quality will be pretty comparable for all pro desktop models in this size range - regardless of make or model. If you can afford it, I'd strongly consider the Canon ipf5100. These things don't clog and you don't have to switch blank inks - important considerations with the 17 inch, high-ink capacity Epson models. Both issues can be really frustrating. The only Epson exception is the Epson 3800. It DOES have simultaneous black inks. The 3800 is not as pricey as other 17" models, and ships with a LOT of ink. It seems to have a cult following too - for good reason. I'm strongly considering this printer.
The 2880 might be a solid choice for you, too. The smaller cartridges might be perfect lower volume. Cheaper cartridges. No ink expiration worries. And black ink switching really isn't a huge deal, with such small cartridges. Although, the overall ink cost over the long run will be higher (compared to the larger printers). The x880 series produces stunning B/W prints, too. It's hard to beat ultrachrome K3 quality. And available profiles, Epson support and documentation are all stellar.
Also, don't rule out an used/refurbished ipf5000 - just for the price. I know Kalin and others can talk about this one.
Posted by Jack Garrett on October 16, 2008 at 12:54 AM
I have an Epson R1900 and have sold a number of prints from it. It is archival and can do up to 13X19 sheets. It can also do roll paper up to 13X44 or something like that. I have a dilemma though. This printer produces such good color that when I outsource to Lightjet, It cannot produce nearly as good a print as my inkjet. I'm getting ready to post a topic on that as we speak.
Jack
Posted by Mark Stahlke on October 16, 2008 at 1:10 AM
Hi Dave,
Back in May I moved up from a Canon i9900 (13 inch, dye inks) to a Canon iPF6100 (24 inch, pigment inks) printer. I went to a 24 inch wide printer because a 17 inch wide printer didn't make sense to me. Going from 13 inches to 17 inches is a huge price jump. The jump from 17 inches to 24 inches is relatively smaller. For example, B&H lists the iPF5100 (17 inch) for about $2000 and the iPF6100 (24 inch) for about $2800. That $800 gets you a lot more printer. You can use 17 inch rolls in a 24 inch printer but, obviously, you can't put 24 inch rolls in a 17 inch printer. Think for a minute about standard print sizes - with a 17 inch printer you're limited to 16x20. A 24 inch printer gives you a lot more possibilities.
I spent a lot of time researching the 24 inch offerings from Epson, HP, and Canon. I eliminated Epson pretty quickly due to the issue with changing black inks. Epsons also had a reputation for clogging though they probably don't deserve that reputation anymore.
I came pretty close to buying an HP z3100. I liked the built in spectrophotometer but there were a couple of things that bothered me. Earlier reports complained of pizza wheel marks with some papers, weak reds, and poor quality profiles. The ink set seemed odd, too. It has light cyan but no cyan. Cyan is replaced by a gloss enhancer. I don't care for glossy prints so this was unimportant to me. The HP was also the most expensive of the three. Today's prices may be different.
The Canon iPF6100 uses 12 pigment based inks. It carries both matte black and photo black ink carts at the same time so there is no need to switch. It also calibrates itself. This is not at all the same as the HP's built in profiling. In theory, all Canon iPF6100s should print exactly the same because they're calibrated the same. This means the paper manufacturers should be able to provide very accurate profiles thus eliminating the need for custom profiles. That's the theory anyway, I can't say how well it works in practice. This was the cheapest of the printers I looked at too. So far I've been very happy with it.
Mel is absolutely right about the lower cost of operating a large printer. Ink carts for my i9900 cost about $12 for 13ml. The iPF6100 carts are about $75 for 130ml. That's 10 times the ink for 7 or 8 times the price. I have to keep reminding myself of that since I just bought a complete set of 12 carts. Ouch! Roll paper is generally cheaper per square foot than cut sheets.
The bottom line: I think you should go with a 24 inch wide printer. Study the features, specs and reviews of the offerings from Epson, HP, and Canon and choose the one that makes sense for you.
Cheers,
Posted by Kalin Wilson on October 16, 2008 at 1:13 AM
Mel and Jesse hit most of the high points. The key factors that led to my iPF5000 purchase was 17", Roll paper capable, Photo and Matte Blacks at all times (no switching), speed, and high quality. I haven't been disappointed. The inks got better with the iPfx100 series.
The few downsides are printing smaller than 8.5x11 (I just batch onto sheets or roll) and the ink costs. Canon inks costs are in line with other models of it's caliber but $75 per cartridge over 12 cartridges adds up when a slew start getting low at the same time.
I really take for granted not having head clogs. I NEVER deal with them. But the cost of that luxury is ink usage during cleanings. The Canons have lots of extra nozzles and reroute the ink when a nozzle clogs. The cost to replace the heads is about the same as a new printer but I haven't heard of too many people who have had to do that in the nearly two years I've had the printer. In terms of cleanings, if you leave the printer powered on it wakes up periodically and does a nozzle check. This uses minimal ink and keeps things ready to go. If the printer sits idle (off) for a while the startup cleaning can be painfully long. Recent firmware updates have helped reduce ink usage during cleaning but I haven't experienced that yet.
There are plenty of good profiles for the Canons for most popular papers. If you're considering this level of printer I recommend investing in a spectro so you can create your own profiles or buying custom profiles.
I think Epson and Canon have a slight edge over HP based on issues I've heard about the HPs (read Luminous Landscape forums for great info). If I were buying today it would be a tough decision. Epson is still more of the known quantity, but I REALLY like being able to print the same image to a semi-gloss and matte sheet in back-to-back jobs without having to waste $60-$70 of ink.
I haven't checked lately, but the iPF5000s that are still on the market are probably well below $1000. They might be at a price point that it would be worth trying one to get your feet wet in large format printing before making the jump to a more expensive model.
If you're down in the Colorado Springs area, I'd be glad to demo for you (once I get the drivers installed on my Mac Pro)
Good Luck!
Kalin
Posted by Jason Woerly on October 16, 2008 at 10:32 AM
I have an Epson 3800 and couldn't be happier with it. One of the deciding factors for me was that it comes with full 80mL cartridges which is about $500 worth of ink which makes it about the same cost as a 2000 series once you put full cartridges in it. Of course the larger cartridges also mean lower operating costs and going to 17" allows me to print about 99% of the orders I get while still doing small cut sheets.
Something to keep in mind also (since you mentioned pano ability) is that the driver will let you create a custom sheet size up to 37.4". I have been making my own cut sheets from 17" rolls. I routinely do 16x24" image area prints (just be sure to leave at least 1.5" margin at the ends or you'll get head strikes when the paper isn't being held by both sets of rollers). I don't print on matte papers anymore so the black ink swapping isn't an issue for me. The black and white prints from it are stunning.
If you decide to go this way keep an eye on the epson store website. I got a refurbished model (with warranty) for $995 and free shipping and have had no problems in the year I've had it.
Thanks everybody ~ I knew this would generate some great printer beta and turned out to be a real eye-opener.
I appreciate the 3800 refurbished info. too - had no idea that you could create custome sheets, and Epson has it listed for $895 right now. Hmmm. Does an Epson come Mac ready? When I priced the Canon IPF 6100, there was a $250 charge for Mac. That just bugs me.
Posted by Jesse Speer on October 16, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Shop elsewhere Dave. They are mac-ready out of the factory. Try ITsupplies.com.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on October 16, 2008 at 12:14 PM
I've been using the Epson 3800 for the last ~18 months and my experience is similar to Jason;'s. Great prints!
Absolutely NO clogging problems. The printer was shut down for 4 months during a recent move. Did one cleaning cycle for a minor clog in one nozzel. Ink expiration dates do not appear to be an issue. That was a concern for me, considering the large cartridges.
Ink swapping costs are low, but they do exist. The $60-$70 costs are associated with the 4800. I rarely switch inks, but that is certainly a consideration for those that need to switch frequently.
I've also been cutting rolls. Cheaper, and I like 16"x30" prints. I have not had the need to print anything longer than the 16"x37.4" limit. There are a few papers available in 17"x25" sheets.
Certainly a 24" printer would be great, if you plan to sell that size.
I also bet a new model release is imminent. So you may want to hold off just a bit longer. Should see some great end of the year sales for the 3800.
Posted by Mark Stahlke on October 16, 2008 at 1:27 PM
You're using a Mac?
Here is an idea. Download profiles for one paper for the different printers you're considering and compare their color gamuts using Apple's Colorsync utility. Also compare them to your working color space. I'm thinking about switching from Adobe RGB to ProPhoto RGB because it looks like my printer can reproduce colors well outside Adobe RGB color space. I was surprised to see that. Unfortunately, it can't reproduce anywhere near the entire ProPhoto RGB color space so I run the risk of having a lot of out of gamut colors to deal with during the soft proofing phase. I haven't decided if it's worth the trouble yet. It probably depends on the image.
I left out one verse in my song of praise for the iPF6100. Canon supplies a Photoshop plug-in for 16 bit printing, a very nice bit of software. I suspect it's the 16 bit printing capability that gives me colors beyond Adobe RGB color space.
Mac ready? WTF? Don't spend $250 on nothing. I bought my iPF6100 from http://www.proimagingsupplies.com/ and I was happy with their service.
Cheers,
Posted by Rick Dunn on October 17, 2008 at 10:45 AM
For those cutting 17" wide rolls, are you using a mat-cutter or paper-cutter? I have a Logan 301 and am thinking it could be used successfully.
I'd really like a 7880 or Z3100, but given the relative infrequency of printing 24", a 17" printer probably makes much more economical sense.
Thanks for all the info in this thread... very helpful.
Posted by Jason Woerly on October 17, 2008 at 5:26 PM
Rick, I use a rotary paper cutter but I imagine your mat cutter would work fine. Like you I would have loved a 24" (or even larger) printer but have found the 3800 satisfies the vast majority of my printing needs. It's really a lot of printer for the money and there's a wealth of info out there on it. Eric Chan (who works for Adobe on the Lightroom team), has several pages on his website dedicated to it including lots of profiles. I wouldn't be surprised to see the 3880 in the next few months since the 3800 is now two years old.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on October 17, 2008 at 6:25 PM
Rick, I don't have a large paper cutter, so I just use my Logan 750 mat cutter.
I installed a 2' curtain rod with brackets at the end of my work table.
Being able to hang the roll out of the way really helps. Cost ~ $6.
I also made my own d-curler out of thick, 3" diameter cardboard tube and 2 sheets of mylar. Cost $ 0.
However, I prefer to pre-cut a number of sheets and let them flatten between weighted foam board. Paper curl is an issue with the 3800. I get head strikes at the end of the sheet, even with thin papers. So, taking the time to de-curl the rolls is important, especially for thicker papers.
Posted by Rick Dunn on October 17, 2008 at 6:36 PM
Thanks guys!
Bill, that was exactly what I was wondering about - how to mount the roll somewhere and keep it close to the plane of the cutter. The decurler is ingenious as well, though probably cost-prohibitive in this economy.
Posted by Mark Stahlke on October 17, 2008 at 11:22 PM
Rick, how many 24 inch prints would you make if all they cost you was about $10.00?
I just made a 24x30 print for a friend, the cost of materials works out to $10.28.
Here is the math:
Moab Entrada 300 Bright 24x40ft @ $109.00 is $1.36 per square foot.
Ink 130ml @ $75.00 is $0.58 per ml.
A 24x30 print is 5 square feet so paper cost $6.80.
The print used 6ml of ink so the ink cost $3.48.
Total cost is $10.28.
Where else can you get a 24x30 print that cheap?
Cheers,
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on October 17, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Posted by Rick Dunn on October 18, 2008 at 9:24 AM
Rick, how many 24 inch prints would you make if all they cost you was about $10.00?
Probably a dozen a year, give or take. The majority of what I sell is in the 16x and smaller range.
I was ready to pull the trigger on a Z3100 or 7880 late last year, but with so many folks on the forums who are willing to print on their 24" or 44" machines, economical lab options, and the relative infrequency with which I need that large a print - and hearing that smaller sheets on those printers can be challenging - I decided to go for a printer optimized to handle what I most commonly print, and outsource the less common stuff.
Bill - that's a pretty good deal. Almost as economical as your decurler!
Discussion
17 repliesKnowing that most of us love to talk about our gear, I would like to hear about the best printers and why you think they're great. I'd like to have a 17" wide with B&W and pano capability (roll), but may opt for a 13x19 with or without roll feed.
So, is anyone using a Epson 2880 or larger? A Canon ipf5100? Any other ideas?
Thanks,
I can't speak for the 2880, but I've got the R1800 which is archival. The prints have been pretty good and they last.
My advice is to save your money for the 17" printer. You'll save a ton of money on ink in the long run. The 3800 is a great printer, so are the 4880 and Canon iPF5100. The advantage for the 3800 is the ability to print small sizes like 4X6 as well as the lighter weight. The advantage of the 5100 and 4880 are the ability to use larger ink carts to drive operating costs down even further.
I've looked at this very carefully and the 3800 is the hands down winner over the 2880 when you look at operating costs over the life of the printer. The cost difference between the printers is entirely made with larger ink carts.
That said, I have to wonder if there is a new 3800 on the horizon. Since the 3800 came out, the 4880/7880/9880 and 7900/9900 have been released.
If you'd like to query individuals, I know Kalin has the ipf5000 and Jesse mentioned that he purchased the 7880 some time ago.
I've been researching and considering a desktop model for certain book/portfolio projects - where cut sheets are a necessity. So, I can offer some thoughts. (I use a 7880, and absolutely love it ... but it's horrible with small, cut sheets).
Realistically, I think image quality will be pretty comparable for all pro desktop models in this size range - regardless of make or model. If you can afford it, I'd strongly consider the Canon ipf5100. These things don't clog and you don't have to switch blank inks - important considerations with the 17 inch, high-ink capacity Epson models. Both issues can be really frustrating. The only Epson exception is the Epson 3800. It DOES have simultaneous black inks. The 3800 is not as pricey as other 17" models, and ships with a LOT of ink. It seems to have a cult following too - for good reason. I'm strongly considering this printer.
The 2880 might be a solid choice for you, too. The smaller cartridges might be perfect lower volume. Cheaper cartridges. No ink expiration worries. And black ink switching really isn't a huge deal, with such small cartridges. Although, the overall ink cost over the long run will be higher (compared to the larger printers). The x880 series produces stunning B/W prints, too. It's hard to beat ultrachrome K3 quality. And available profiles, Epson support and documentation are all stellar.
Also, don't rule out an used/refurbished ipf5000 - just for the price. I know Kalin and others can talk about this one.
Jack
Back in May I moved up from a Canon i9900 (13 inch, dye inks) to a Canon iPF6100 (24 inch, pigment inks) printer. I went to a 24 inch wide printer because a 17 inch wide printer didn't make sense to me. Going from 13 inches to 17 inches is a huge price jump. The jump from 17 inches to 24 inches is relatively smaller. For example, B&H lists the iPF5100 (17 inch) for about $2000 and the iPF6100 (24 inch) for about $2800. That $800 gets you a lot more printer. You can use 17 inch rolls in a 24 inch printer but, obviously, you can't put 24 inch rolls in a 17 inch printer. Think for a minute about standard print sizes - with a 17 inch printer you're limited to 16x20. A 24 inch printer gives you a lot more possibilities.
I spent a lot of time researching the 24 inch offerings from Epson, HP, and Canon. I eliminated Epson pretty quickly due to the issue with changing black inks. Epsons also had a reputation for clogging though they probably don't deserve that reputation anymore.
I came pretty close to buying an HP z3100. I liked the built in spectrophotometer but there were a couple of things that bothered me. Earlier reports complained of pizza wheel marks with some papers, weak reds, and poor quality profiles. The ink set seemed odd, too. It has light cyan but no cyan. Cyan is replaced by a gloss enhancer. I don't care for glossy prints so this was unimportant to me. The HP was also the most expensive of the three. Today's prices may be different.
The Canon iPF6100 uses 12 pigment based inks. It carries both matte black and photo black ink carts at the same time so there is no need to switch. It also calibrates itself. This is not at all the same as the HP's built in profiling. In theory, all Canon iPF6100s should print exactly the same because they're calibrated the same. This means the paper manufacturers should be able to provide very accurate profiles thus eliminating the need for custom profiles. That's the theory anyway, I can't say how well it works in practice. This was the cheapest of the printers I looked at too. So far I've been very happy with it.
Mel is absolutely right about the lower cost of operating a large printer. Ink carts for my i9900 cost about $12 for 13ml. The iPF6100 carts are about $75 for 130ml. That's 10 times the ink for 7 or 8 times the price. I have to keep reminding myself of that since I just bought a complete set of 12 carts. Ouch! Roll paper is generally cheaper per square foot than cut sheets.
The bottom line: I think you should go with a 24 inch wide printer. Study the features, specs and reviews of the offerings from Epson, HP, and Canon and choose the one that makes sense for you.
Cheers,
The few downsides are printing smaller than 8.5x11 (I just batch onto sheets or roll) and the ink costs. Canon inks costs are in line with other models of it's caliber but $75 per cartridge over 12 cartridges adds up when a slew start getting low at the same time.
I really take for granted not having head clogs. I NEVER deal with them. But the cost of that luxury is ink usage during cleanings. The Canons have lots of extra nozzles and reroute the ink when a nozzle clogs. The cost to replace the heads is about the same as a new printer but I haven't heard of too many people who have had to do that in the nearly two years I've had the printer. In terms of cleanings, if you leave the printer powered on it wakes up periodically and does a nozzle check. This uses minimal ink and keeps things ready to go. If the printer sits idle (off) for a while the startup cleaning can be painfully long. Recent firmware updates have helped reduce ink usage during cleaning but I haven't experienced that yet.
There are plenty of good profiles for the Canons for most popular papers. If you're considering this level of printer I recommend investing in a spectro so you can create your own profiles or buying custom profiles.
I think Epson and Canon have a slight edge over HP based on issues I've heard about the HPs (read Luminous Landscape forums for great info). If I were buying today it would be a tough decision. Epson is still more of the known quantity, but I REALLY like being able to print the same image to a semi-gloss and matte sheet in back-to-back jobs without having to waste $60-$70 of ink.
I haven't checked lately, but the iPF5000s that are still on the market are probably well below $1000. They might be at a price point that it would be worth trying one to get your feet wet in large format printing before making the jump to a more expensive model.
If you're down in the Colorado Springs area, I'd be glad to demo for you (once I get the drivers installed on my Mac Pro)
Good Luck!
Kalin
Something to keep in mind also (since you mentioned pano ability) is that the driver will let you create a custom sheet size up to 37.4". I have been making my own cut sheets from 17" rolls. I routinely do 16x24" image area prints (just be sure to leave at least 1.5" margin at the ends or you'll get head strikes when the paper isn't being held by both sets of rollers). I don't print on matte papers anymore so the black ink swapping isn't an issue for me. The black and white prints from it are stunning.
If you decide to go this way keep an eye on the epson store website. I got a refurbished model (with warranty) for $995 and free shipping and have had no problems in the year I've had it.
I appreciate the 3800 refurbished info. too - had no idea that you could create custome sheets, and Epson has it listed for $895 right now. Hmmm. Does an Epson come Mac ready? When I priced the Canon IPF 6100, there was a $250 charge for Mac. That just bugs me.
Absolutely NO clogging problems. The printer was shut down for 4 months during a recent move. Did one cleaning cycle for a minor clog in one nozzel. Ink expiration dates do not appear to be an issue. That was a concern for me, considering the large cartridges.
Ink swapping costs are low, but they do exist. The $60-$70 costs are associated with the 4800. I rarely switch inks, but that is certainly a consideration for those that need to switch frequently.
I've also been cutting rolls. Cheaper, and I like 16"x30" prints. I have not had the need to print anything longer than the 16"x37.4" limit. There are a few papers available in 17"x25" sheets.
Certainly a 24" printer would be great, if you plan to sell that size.
I also bet a new model release is imminent. So you may want to hold off just a bit longer. Should see some great end of the year sales for the 3800.
Here is an idea. Download profiles for one paper for the different printers you're considering and compare their color gamuts using Apple's Colorsync utility. Also compare them to your working color space. I'm thinking about switching from Adobe RGB to ProPhoto RGB because it looks like my printer can reproduce colors well outside Adobe RGB color space. I was surprised to see that. Unfortunately, it can't reproduce anywhere near the entire ProPhoto RGB color space so I run the risk of having a lot of out of gamut colors to deal with during the soft proofing phase. I haven't decided if it's worth the trouble yet. It probably depends on the image.
I left out one verse in my song of praise for the iPF6100. Canon supplies a Photoshop plug-in for 16 bit printing, a very nice bit of software. I suspect it's the 16 bit printing capability that gives me colors beyond Adobe RGB color space.
Mac ready? WTF? Don't spend $250 on nothing. I bought my iPF6100 from http://www.proimagingsupplies.com/ and I was happy with their service.
Cheers,
I'd really like a 7880 or Z3100, but given the relative infrequency of printing 24", a 17" printer probably makes much more economical sense.
Thanks for all the info in this thread... very helpful.
I installed a 2' curtain rod with brackets at the end of my work table.
Being able to hang the roll out of the way really helps. Cost ~ $6.
I also made my own d-curler out of thick, 3" diameter cardboard tube and 2 sheets of mylar. Cost $ 0.
However, I prefer to pre-cut a number of sheets and let them flatten between weighted foam board. Paper curl is an issue with the 3800. I get head strikes at the end of the sheet, even with thin papers. So, taking the time to de-curl the rolls is important, especially for thicker papers.
Bill, that was exactly what I was wondering about - how to mount the roll somewhere and keep it close to the plane of the cutter. The decurler is ingenious as well, though probably cost-prohibitive in this economy.
I just made a 24x30 print for a friend, the cost of materials works out to $10.28.
Here is the math:
Moab Entrada 300 Bright 24x40ft @ $109.00 is $1.36 per square foot.
Ink 130ml @ $75.00 is $0.58 per ml.
A 24x30 print is 5 square feet so paper cost $6.80.
The print used 6ml of ink so the ink cost $3.48.
Total cost is $10.28.
Where else can you get a 24x30 print that cheap?
Cheers,
Try:EL-CO Color Labs: http://www.elcocolor.com/poster_special.htm and you are not limited to a mere 24" width.
Probably a dozen a year, give or take. The majority of what I sell is in the 16x and smaller range.
I was ready to pull the trigger on a Z3100 or 7880 late last year, but with so many folks on the forums who are willing to print on their 24" or 44" machines, economical lab options, and the relative infrequency with which I need that large a print - and hearing that smaller sheets on those printers can be challenging - I decided to go for a printer optimized to handle what I most commonly print, and outsource the less common stuff.
Bill - that's a pretty good deal. Almost as economical as your decurler!