Help with new computer system

OK, computer wiz kids; maybe you can help me and others out a bit here. I am considering giving up the old 4x5 and going completely too digital. This is especially true if Nikon ever releases its new high meg digital camera. After purchase of a camera system, the first thing I am going to need is an upgrade on my old computer. It has been a good beast, but by today’s standards it is slower than a pregnant nun headed to confession. Not being of the “born with a silver spoon” group I need to be very careful how I spend my few sheckels to make this conversion to digital work out. This is where you computer geniuses come in. Because I work with drum scanned files up to maybe 300 megs and stitched digital files, I am going to need to maximize the bang I get for the bucks I spend. Looking at computer ads, I see several factors involved in the speed and price of the computer. What I don’t know is which to throw my money at. Here is the list I have come up with:

Computer clock speed
Amount of RAM
Front side bus speed
Dual vs. quad processor
Video card size

There may be more factors, but this is what comes to mind right off hand. So how should I rank these factors to maximize speed while minimizing cost? Should I up the RAM and go with a dual processor, or get a faster video card and not worry about the front side bus speed? – that sort of thing.

I am sure this information will be of value to many of us as we are always upgrading somewhere along the line. Also, Christmas is right around the corner and many might be making up Christmas wish lists.

I have probably over simplified this (as the uninformed usually do), but any help would be very appreciated.

Hi George,

Some things definitely factor in more than others...I'll weigh in with my IT hat (the "day job").

- Always get the highest CPU clock you can afford. There's usually a threshold of price/perf where the cost starts to skyrocket and you only get a small bump in speed. I usually stay right below that point. (See the Dell website if you want to see this in action with custom configurations of computers)

- RAM--You'll want a minimum of 2GB for your needs. I deal with scans of the same size. 2MB is just right. 4GB is ideal if you can afford it, but WindowsXP can't address more than 3.6G of it, so you're wasting some money there.

- Dual vs. Quad: This debate is overblown. Most applications (read: Photoshop) barely take advantage of one, let alone 2 or more processors. There are some things that a dual processor gets you. Quad is a waste, IMO.

- Video card: Any entry-level video card will be fine. You will be limited by I/O and CPU more than rendering.

- Front side bus: Again, faster is better, but on a modern box, it may only aid you slightly. I'd stick with the fastest standard you can find, but don't pay for upgrade.

- Hard drive speed: Here's one you missed. File seek/read/write time is the killer for 300MB images. If you can afford a 7200RPM drive, upgrade. It's usually not much more than the std 5400. 10000 is even better, but again, it's a price/perf thing.

Hope that helps. Consider what you paid for the info.

-D

From your post I'm guessing you will be going with a PC and not a MAC?

Are you building a custom machine yourself?

That being said, lots of things do come into play. One thing though, if you're not custom building your own machine, you probably will be somewhat limited on the options you have.
Generally on a prebuilt machine they are going to match the processor with proper system board, so you won't be choosing fsb speed, or memory speed. Memory speed also plays a role not just the amount of RAM. Those things come into play if you want to overclock as well, but I'm thinking you won't be.

The operating system you get also plays into performance. If you go with a 32-bit OS like standard XP Pro or Vista you can put a max of 4GB of RAM in, but the machine will probably only address 3GB, meaning only 3GB will be available. If you go with a 64 bit OS like XP Pro 64 or different versions of Vista you don't have those limitations, but you can have driver issues...

Confusing huh...

So:
I would get as fast of a dual core processor as you can
I would get as much RAM as the system can use, memory is cheap
I don't think you even have to worry about a 5400rpm hard drive unless you're building a laptop, almost all desktop drives are at least 7200rpm these days.
I wouldn't worry much on the video card, as long as it supports enough resolution for your 24" widescreen monitor..

Plan ahead for your backup system as well if you're budgeting...

If you have any more specific questions shoot me an email and I would be happy to help out.

Kevin

George,

All this stuff changes almost daily, so today's advice will be outdated before I finish typing this.


I think for your situation you'll be OK with less than the TOP of the line from a performance standpoint and you'll certainly get much more bang for your buck.

The things I would look for are a computer case that will allow you to add more hard drive space and a motherboard that is flexible for modifications (PCIe slots, extra memory slots). Then I'd probably look for a computer that was loaded with Windows Vista X64, because this will allow you to actually use more RAM.

For images that large, you might also consider buying a high-speed external hard drive solely to be used as your scratch disk in Photoshop. I'd also go with 4GB of RAM, even if the comp doesn't end up using all of it.

Kind of mentioned above, but I thought I'd point out that from what I understand, a lot of the higher-end graphics cards are designed to give better performance for 3D/gaming applications, but really won't do much to improve general graphics/Photoshop performance. Get something that supports your desired resolution. Other things to look for in a video card are DVI support and dual-monitor support. Whether or not you use it now, you might want it in the future.

George I've been asking that same question these last couple of weeks and only have about $1k to spend. My web research coupled with my far too limited tech knowledge has led me to believe that memory is key for working with large files, which I do regularly when stitching 30+ images; Lightroom is heavily reliant on the speed of the hard drive; CS4 can make use of higher-end video cards and especially those from Nvidia series 8 and higher; and the larger cache can make a significant difference for heavy processing.

I have spent hours on the Dell website and am now convinced that to get the best I can afford I need to build it myself with components from Newegg.com. Right now I am looking at the following components which would cost me almost exactly $1,000. This assumes I use my current monitor.

- Intel Q9550 processor Core 2 Quad 2.83GHz 12MB L2 Cache
- 8 gig of DDR2
- GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R motherboard (Supports up to 16GB)
- Nvidia GeForce 9600 (512 mb) video card
- ATX case
- 640GB 7200 drive
- Vista Home Premium 64bit

I realize that this is not top of the line, but if you are on a budget this is a fairly affordable way to get quite a bit of power.

Hey Eric,
For an extra $10.00 this disk drive gives you twice the cache (32MB vs. 16MB) and a longer warranty (5 years vs. 3 years). Just something to think about.

Cheers,

For files the size you want to work with and if you're going to be working with PS CS 4, I would highly recommend Vista Home Premium 64 bit OS because it will allow Photoshop to use more than 4GB of RAM. More RAM = less time swapping images into and out of memory during image processing-intensive operations.

This is great information. It is really helping me to decide which way to go. I hope it is helping others as well.

Kevin - I plan on using a PC system instead of MAC.

I will be buying the system or having it built for me. Hey, If I knew enough to build one, I wouldn't have all these questions. Or maybe I would. Five computers in the house and I am still trying to figure out how to plug them in. I think I may be terminally computer challenged.

George, you've gotten some good advice except for the video card. CS4 will make good use of a GPU and Erik's selection is a good one. I just installed an Nvidia Geforce 9500 with 512MB and am very pleased. Also, Adobe's new Pixel Bender technology (available with CS4) will make use of the GPU for filters. One thing nice about a custom build (by you or someone else) is that you can upgrade as the need arises. Good luck with your decision.

George, you will need to stick to PC's to stay cheaper, it's just a fact of life that MAC computers are more expensive.

You didn't say if you use PS, but PS CS4 does make use of higher end graphics cards for rendering now and with HUGE speed increases. So, if you use this version of PS then getting a better graphics card would help you out. Check out the approved Video Cards on Adobes site.

The next best thing would be memory and LOTS of it. I'd suggest Vista X64 and 8GB of RAM. PS CS4 is also 64 bit, so all 8GB of that memory is going to be usable in the application now. This will be a tremendous speed increase for all but the largest files and since memory is dirt cheap right now the more the better (i.e. if your motherboard can hold more than 8GB go for it if you go PS CS4 on Vista X64)

CPU - get the fastest CPU speed you can, regardless if it's a single, dual or quad core CPU. Most apps can't take advantage of the multiple cores now, but the next versions of apps most likely will. So right now the fastest core will be the best performing, but apps using multiple cores would work much better on the dual core cpu. I'd say go dual core at the minimum and quad core if you can find one of them cheap.

DISK - since you will probably be the only one using this PC at any give point in time, fast random access isn't critical; you need fast sequential access to your large files for reads and writes. Any modern SATA desktop drive would do, but get the drives with the most internal cache (32MB now days). Also, think about getting Seagate drives since they have 5 year replacement warranties. Get at least 3 drives; 1 for OS/swap, 1 for PS scratch disk and 1 for your data. Get more than 3 if you already have more than 1 disk worth of files. Don't pay more than 10 cents/GB or your getting taken.

Case - Make sure your case has plenty of expansion for disk drives for future needs. I currently have 7 drives in my system and have room for one more.

Motherboard - Make sure it's PCIe and quad core capable, even if you don't need that now you will if you upgrade your processor in the future. Get one with the most SATA ports you can.

I hope I didn't forget anything, but this should get you most of the way there.
Craig

OK, since I sell build your own systems, let me throw my 2 cents worth in. Erik's system sounds very good. The only thing I might change is the processor. I would go for an INtel E8400, 3.0ghz processor with 6mb 2nd level cache...you can get one for $149 in my store. I like his board and memory, video card is good. You aren't gaming so you dont need one of those high end video cards. Vista 64bit OS is the way to go so you can maximize RAM. I would use 2 drives, my main drive would be a 10,000 RPM Raptor and my secondary drive would be a standard SATA 7200RPM...Seagates have a 5 yr warranty. If building your own, get at least a 500 watt power supply (600 is better) and a case with a fair amount of cooling space. You will be somewhere around 1K -1.2K with this setup but it should last you a few years. You are talking about processing some major files here so you don't want to scimp on components. Hope this helps.

Jack

Oh, one more thing you should really think about getting is a UPS. It helps protect all those delicate components in your computer. Well worth the money in CO with all the lightening we get.

I see lots of good suggestions here, one thing that I might add is HP refurbished business product list. I know that refurbished sounds scary but most of the computers just didn't meet initial QA standards were fixed and now are considered "Refurbished".

I buy computers from here all the time. You can even get a 3 year onsite hardware warranty for cheap. The key to my buying experience is that I buy only workstations. I worked for HP for 6 years and know from experience that if you are buying a windows box HP workstations are the best you can buy. I have a XW8000 that would have cost $10000 if i were to buy it new but was only $2000 refurbished. This computer still out preforms my new work computer and it is 6 years old.

http://www.hp.com/go/refurbished

OK, here is a summary of what I think you have all said: Those things in ( )’s are what I would get if I purchased a Dell system.

1. Get the fastest processor I can – one from the top to save on cost. (Intel® Core™i7-920 Processor(8MB L2 Cache, 2.66GHz))

2. Get plenty of RAM if I get a 64 bit processor (8GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1066MHz - 6 DIMMs)

3. Get at least a 7200 rpm hard drive – several in fact (1TB Performance RAID 0 (2 x 500GB SATA 3Gb/s 7200 RPM HDDs


I know I can’t rely heavily on Raid 0 for back up, but it is a start. I’m thinking maybe go to a non Raid 0 setup of I TB instead – plus a few more. Seagate is a good brand because of the warranty.

4. Video card – because I will be working with a 64 bit system – Vista SP1 - and can take advantage of more RAM and will be using CS4 I should get an upgraded video card (512MB ATI Radeon HD 4850 )

5. Everything will change before I can place an order anyway.


OK, so this is more or less what I got from your help. The Dell price for what I have stated is about $1600 in an XPS system. Does that seem reasonable? Would it be advisable to back off the i7-920 processor to something else? Could I save much by having someone build the system for me or should a novice like me stick with something like Dell or HP - with their world famous help systems? I once had a guy tell me he couldn't help me with the question I had because his camel ate that part of the manual.

My last question (for now) is – does anyone ever drown in this alphabet soup? RAID, SDRAM, SATA, MHz, TB, HDDs, RAM, GHZ, DDR3, DDR2, GA-EP45-UP3R, Q9550, L2, GPU, 9600, ATX, X64, PS CS 4, PCI, DVI, OS – I may need a dictionary so I don’t go NUTS.

Thanks you all for taking the time to help me with this problem. It is greatly appreciated.

it's just a fact of life that MAC computers are more expensive.

This is just not true. PC's are just as expensive for an equivalent system. It's just PC's get made with crappy componentsand so can be made cheaper.

George, I see you making a huge list of the computer side of things, but do you have a good monitor? That's not listed on there and the quality of your monitor is going to make a difference in your processing more than speed, ram, the size of your disk, etc.

Laurent,

I was kind of hoping to get by with my old CRT for awhile. It seems to still match up with more modern equipment friends have. I can work on a print on my screen - take it to a friend's computer with a new La Cie top of the line LCD monitor and get very similar results. I am wondering what monitor to go to when this beast begins to wonder too much, too soon after calibration. Looks like this could be a rather fun aspect of this whole deal - he says sarcastically. I've heard the LaCie monitor is good along with a few other rather pricey ones, I was wondering if something like a Dell might work (price: $517)

Dell
UltraSharp 2408WFP 24-inch Widescreen Flat Panel Monitor with Height Adjustable Stand
Usually Ships 1-2 weeks
Manufacturer Part# JU436
Dell Part# 320-6272
Max Resolution: 1920 x 1200
Image Contrast Ratio: 1300:1 / 3000:1 (dynamic)
Response Time: 6 ms

Maybe I will have to jump up a grade or two, but I don't think I can afford the big guns in the $2k and up range.


Thanks for the help.