Posted by Darren White on January 25, 2009 at 1:44 AM
As a paying member for 2 of the last 3 years I feel that this forum needs to be redone with more features that allow for not only larger uploads but with more options for critique.
I have found a very nice home with my website and on Flickr where I get much more constructive feedback then I ever got here......
as far as image quality goes........the stuff you see in ESS is top notch......that section of this website blows away the local forums........and there is the lack of comments......some of you say that the views are the lurkers or non members but I feel that those views should not be counted if that is the case.......
I have meet some very cool people here and will continue to shoot with you as time allows. I just wont be posting any more work over here until this site gets a much needed remodel.....
the price is too much for what we don't get!
Cheers and Happy shooting to all of you!!!!
Posted by Jack Garrett on January 25, 2009 at 10:51 AM
First, I would say this is a fine, fine image! You really nailed it in all areas.
Second, I can't speak for others who don't always post a comment but I can say that some people may not feel comfortable making comments for various reasons...they may new into photography and not sure what to say...maybe some dont want to make negative constructive comments for fear of hurting peoples feelings. I personally don't worry about the number of views an image gets, I take the comments I do get and use those to make me a better photographer.
I will miss your posts and comments on this forum. When I view your images, I learn a lot about light and composition and I'm sure others do as well. My personal feeling is that I get more out of viewing images on this forum than I ever got from Flickr. My hope is that you will reconsider your decision.
Jack from RMNP
Posted by John Lehmkuhl on January 25, 2009 at 12:56 PM
A very nice shot overall, Darren. You have another shot from this same evening I've seen that has golden light on the water (mist) and a tighter crop of the mountain that is the winner. This isn't a bad 2nd choice but that first one is the zinger. I woiuld consider fixing the Left trees that are slanted if you are going to print or sell this shot, however.
I agree with you on the forums. I canceled my membership over a year ago. Nothing has changed since then. It is what it is if you ask me..... doubt it will ever change. I keep checking back to see a small handful of photographers work,but that is almost the only reason to visit this site, imo. I don't come here because of this site and I don't post photos here because of the added steps required to resize from my default to accommodate this site. Not the way it should be.
See you over at Flickr.
Posted by Cliff Dodge on January 25, 2009 at 1:55 PM
A beautiful parting shot. :)
Posted by Erik Lundh on January 25, 2009 at 2:28 PM
Posted by Steve Cole on January 25, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Darren, this is a great, DIFFERENT composition from a location that gets shot alot. Great job.
With regards to the forum, I couldn't agree more. I just joined & it only took once to realize how limiting the forums are. I sent several emails expressing my concerns about this but it was clear to me that the people running the site just don't get it. Very sad..
Posted by John Williams on January 25, 2009 at 3:12 PM
While I agree it would be great to do larger sizes here, I am unwilling to cede the "constructive criticism" title to Flickr (IMHO it's not even close, but I also think it's okay for friends to disagree.)
I'll miss you Darren. I love your photos, including this one, and you have to be the most prolific photographer I have ever met (I envy your ability to go without sleep!). I'll keep lurking on, and enjoying, your Flickr posts.
Speaking of shooting, do you have any interest in trying to do a sunset from the top of Mt. Mitchell some day?
Posted by Marc Dilley on January 25, 2009 at 8:07 PM
Sorry to see you leave, Darren. I have enjoyed learning from you.
Posted by Stan Rose on January 25, 2009 at 8:15 PM
The severe distortion here totally kills this shot, IMHO.
The comp is very off-kilter, the anchor in the xlrhc pulls the eye there, when really far more focus should be on the aweome mist and cloud-shrouded Shuksan (my fav mountain!)
The reflection of the clouds is much too bright compared to the sky--and yet the tree reflection is dark compared to the trees--very puzzling, not sure what to make of it (sloppy ND?, bad blend?)
A minor point, but i find the odd-colored cloud reflection at center bottom distracting, particularly since it has nothing to match in the sky above.
Overall, this is a decent shot, far better than 99% of the stuff over at Flickr, but it has many correctable issues. Im glad im able to express my honest critique here at NPN, over at Flickr the folks would probably cry over hearing honest critique.
I'll miss your work, too Darren, as an ex PNWer and hope to someday get back!
Posted by Mark Hudon on January 25, 2009 at 8:18 PM
It's a love fest over there at Flicker from most of the comments I saw, I don't see too much "constructive feedback".
Posted by Adrian Klein on January 25, 2009 at 9:30 PM
Darren, I post on Flickr too but I recieve more honest critiques on my work on NPN than I ever have on Flickr. Flickr is more warm and fuzzies on most of my posts. I agree this forum is not always as "active" in the number of comments you may get compared to Flickr but between here and the other main NPN forums the quality of feedback is better. Will enjoy seeing your posts still on Flickr!
Posted by Mark Windom on January 25, 2009 at 10:12 PM
You don't often see shots of Shuksan at this time of day....the light here is very nice. The distortion (from pointing a wide angle lens downward) has been brought up and needs to be corrected as does the disparity between the brightness of the clouds and their reflection. I would probably also consider removing that clump of grasses that is just up from the LLC.
Posted by Terry Bare on January 26, 2009 at 1:15 AM
What time of the year is this sunrise? I was up there in October and early November and it is not this green. I dont see the shadows that I had either. I was wondering how you get around the clouds getting blown out. I love this image.
Posted by Zack Schnepf on January 26, 2009 at 1:56 AM
I have to agree with Adrian and others, I like flickr, but I think the critique here on NPN has much more substance. I appreciate both sites, but I treat flickr as more of a marketing deal, more views, and activity, but it lacks the honest critique that you get here.
Posted by Marc Adamus on January 26, 2009 at 7:50 PM
What Stan and Mark have said. And good luck getting your back patted over on Flickr.
Posted by Ryan Dyar on January 27, 2009 at 4:42 PM
First off, this is one of my favorites of yours, it has a lot of potential, just needs to be reworked a little to deal with the distortion and reflection issues. I also think the greens may be a little over kill in relation to the saturation of the rest of the image.
As for the flickr vs. NPN issue, I have to disagree. On my last image I posted here locally I recieved almost nothing but great critiques. It was a shot I was very "on the fence" about, as were fellow npn'ers. Meanwhile on flickr it got onto Explore... I'm guessing because of the "pretty colors" in the sky. I did'nt get any positive critiques over there, as I rarely do. I bet I could post a shot of Haystack Rock that was 3stops under exposed and had a tilted horizon and get nothing but the "nice shot, great colors!" comments. While I do agree that there are things that could be done to improve this site, I think pound for pound I get more critiques and knowledge over here than flickr. I just use each site for entirely different reasons. NPN for critiques, flickr for networking/exposure.
NPN is the place to post images if you want to improve your photography skills...Period! Daren pointed me to the high quality of work being displayed here a few years ago so i spent a few months viewing images and reading the critiques offered before joining, My first posts recieved comments but i wasn't prepared for the critiques recieved. I got to the point of spending and hour with a fine tooth comb looking for anything that could be picked apart before posting an image and wham... blown out water was mentioned! Not a clue, but i did start taking time to save each image/comments in a file and was amazed to see how much i had learned in two years looking back through those early saves that have been deleted from the NPN server. Thanks to so many for those lessons!
Personally...I take the goodbye-wave from the mod as an example of what's gone wrong with this board considering the effort Darren has put into his photography and his contribitutions to this forum in the past 3 years.
Stan, Mark and Marc still hold the torch high for honest critique on NPN so let us not forget why we came here in the first place... but this forum is long overdue for a modern techno-makeover.
Posted by Mark Hudon on January 28, 2009 at 1:47 PM
With Darren's comment
where I get much more constructive feedback then I ever got here......
I'm surprised he didn't get a "don't let the door hit you on the way out" reply.
Posted by Rick Lamb on January 28, 2009 at 1:57 PM
As many others have stated I (even though ya I'm a moderator...) feel NPN is heads and shoulders above Flickr!
I read Stan's feedback on your image and I have to agree with his take on it. The distortion is a killer for me. But fear not for there is a way to fix this kind of distortion! Google PTLens! It's an amazing little tool to add to your processing toolbox!
Was this an HDR blend? It kinda has that feel to it...
Darren I hate to see ya go sir! But I wish ya the best going forward and know that should you change your mind the NPN community will welcome you back!
I see many posturing themselves with the "What Stan and Mark have said. And good luck getting your back patted over on Flicker. “crowd, and with Mark piping in with his "don’t let the door" comment, I have to wonder how much of a clique mentality has taken over here as well.
I see people praising pictures that need a real critique but because it was from someone that they are familiar with it…they get praise not a legit critique.
Pictures and posts ignored (like mine) I called someone out (who the moderator seemed to agree with me) on their critique on my shot and HOW it was presented….not that they had issues with the shot. From that point forward…its like darned near everyone in this forum has turned their back on me.
Now…I am an introspective kind of guy….so I first ask…was it me. But then I have to remember I don’t get this kind of treatment in ANY of the other forums I participate in, some are rougher than here, some are “pat on the back” mentality…but I am not treated like I don’t exist in any of them.
Now…I’m not here just to vent….but to bring up a point….I also would add that it isn’t the friendliest forum for critiques.
I think the ingredient most missing from this forum is tact. I can give a very solid critique while still being supportive and encouraging. We are all supposed to be ambassadors of our craft, and we do no good if we don’t look in the mirror from time to time.
People like the OP are also feeling this as well and while I understand the lack of helpfulness of being on a “pat on the back” forum…..the people here are ignoring a legitimate issue that would raise this forum to the next level….honest and still pleasant critiques.
I don’t like just complaining….I’m more of a get it FIXED kinda guy than just complaining.
I would prompt the moderator to maybe post some guidelines on how to critique a photo and try to get everyone off this track or that….and return to a standard the forum can be proud of. Instead of the comments that fly sometimes that if I were the owner of, would be less proud of.
Posted by Mark Hudon on January 28, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Given Darren's backhanded dismissal of every comment he's ever received here what sort of good bye should we have given him?
Mark...I would expect ANYONE not just you....to give him a good bye that shines more on the person giving it....than the one recieving it.
I guess I grow tired of people who justify being rude based on other peoples behavior.
Or treat civility as somthing they dont have time for because their life is so busy. (per our other comment on the other post I posted on today)
You say you have kids...but if your child treated said to you "dont let the door hit ya" how would you react? Would you teach them that isnt the most prudent action...or would you think that was justifiable because you say it?
Bottom line...look in the mirror....how would you want to be treated?
Do you think such concepts are not realistic?
Roman
Posted by Mark Hudon on January 28, 2009 at 6:08 PM
Realistic, true, but I still reserve the right to be as trite and boorish as anyone else, after all, I am only human.
Discussion
25 repliesI have found a very nice home with my website and on Flickr where I get much more constructive feedback then I ever got here......
as far as image quality goes........the stuff you see in ESS is top notch......that section of this website blows away the local forums........and there is the lack of comments......some of you say that the views are the lurkers or non members but I feel that those views should not be counted if that is the case.......
I have meet some very cool people here and will continue to shoot with you as time allows. I just wont be posting any more work over here until this site gets a much needed remodel.....
the price is too much for what we don't get!
Cheers and Happy shooting to all of you!!!!
Second, I can't speak for others who don't always post a comment but I can say that some people may not feel comfortable making comments for various reasons...they may new into photography and not sure what to say...maybe some dont want to make negative constructive comments for fear of hurting peoples feelings. I personally don't worry about the number of views an image gets, I take the comments I do get and use those to make me a better photographer.
I will miss your posts and comments on this forum. When I view your images, I learn a lot about light and composition and I'm sure others do as well. My personal feeling is that I get more out of viewing images on this forum than I ever got from Flickr. My hope is that you will reconsider your decision.
Jack from RMNP
I agree with you on the forums. I canceled my membership over a year ago. Nothing has changed since then. It is what it is if you ask me..... doubt it will ever change. I keep checking back to see a small handful of photographers work,but that is almost the only reason to visit this site, imo. I don't come here because of this site and I don't post photos here because of the added steps required to resize from my default to accommodate this site. Not the way it should be.
See you over at Flickr.
With regards to the forum, I couldn't agree more. I just joined & it only took once to realize how limiting the forums are. I sent several emails expressing my concerns about this but it was clear to me that the people running the site just don't get it. Very sad..
I'll miss you Darren. I love your photos, including this one, and you have to be the most prolific photographer I have ever met (I envy your ability to go without sleep!). I'll keep lurking on, and enjoying, your Flickr posts.
Speaking of shooting, do you have any interest in trying to do a sunset from the top of Mt. Mitchell some day?
The comp is very off-kilter, the anchor in the xlrhc pulls the eye there, when really far more focus should be on the aweome mist and cloud-shrouded Shuksan (my fav mountain!)
The reflection of the clouds is much too bright compared to the sky--and yet the tree reflection is dark compared to the trees--very puzzling, not sure what to make of it (sloppy ND?, bad blend?)
A minor point, but i find the odd-colored cloud reflection at center bottom distracting, particularly since it has nothing to match in the sky above.
Overall, this is a decent shot, far better than 99% of the stuff over at Flickr, but it has many correctable issues. Im glad im able to express my honest critique here at NPN, over at Flickr the folks would probably cry over hearing honest critique.
I'll miss your work, too Darren, as an ex PNWer and hope to someday get back!
As for the flickr vs. NPN issue, I have to disagree. On my last image I posted here locally I recieved almost nothing but great critiques. It was a shot I was very "on the fence" about, as were fellow npn'ers. Meanwhile on flickr it got onto Explore... I'm guessing because of the "pretty colors" in the sky. I did'nt get any positive critiques over there, as I rarely do. I bet I could post a shot of Haystack Rock that was 3stops under exposed and had a tilted horizon and get nothing but the "nice shot, great colors!" comments. While I do agree that there are things that could be done to improve this site, I think pound for pound I get more critiques and knowledge over here than flickr. I just use each site for entirely different reasons. NPN for critiques, flickr for networking/exposure.
Either way, I'll see ya over at flickr D!
Personally...I take the goodbye-wave from the mod as an example of what's gone wrong with this board considering the effort Darren has put into his photography and his contribitutions to this forum in the past 3 years.
Stan, Mark and Marc still hold the torch high for honest critique on NPN so let us not forget why we came here in the first place... but this forum is long overdue for a modern techno-makeover.
I read Stan's feedback on your image and I have to agree with his take on it. The distortion is a killer for me. But fear not for there is a way to fix this kind of distortion! Google PTLens! It's an amazing little tool to add to your processing toolbox!
Was this an HDR blend? It kinda has that feel to it...
Darren I hate to see ya go sir! But I wish ya the best going forward and know that should you change your mind the NPN community will welcome you back!
I see people praising pictures that need a real critique but because it was from someone that they are familiar with it…they get praise not a legit critique.
Pictures and posts ignored (like mine) I called someone out (who the moderator seemed to agree with me) on their critique on my shot and HOW it was presented….not that they had issues with the shot. From that point forward…its like darned near everyone in this forum has turned their back on me.
Now…I am an introspective kind of guy….so I first ask…was it me. But then I have to remember I don’t get this kind of treatment in ANY of the other forums I participate in, some are rougher than here, some are “pat on the back” mentality…but I am not treated like I don’t exist in any of them.
Now…I’m not here just to vent….but to bring up a point….I also would add that it isn’t the friendliest forum for critiques.
I think the ingredient most missing from this forum is tact. I can give a very solid critique while still being supportive and encouraging. We are all supposed to be ambassadors of our craft, and we do no good if we don’t look in the mirror from time to time.
People like the OP are also feeling this as well and while I understand the lack of helpfulness of being on a “pat on the back” forum…..the people here are ignoring a legitimate issue that would raise this forum to the next level….honest and still pleasant critiques.
I don’t like just complaining….I’m more of a get it FIXED kinda guy than just complaining.
I would prompt the moderator to maybe post some guidelines on how to critique a photo and try to get everyone off this track or that….and return to a standard the forum can be proud of. Instead of the comments that fly sometimes that if I were the owner of, would be less proud of.
I guess I grow tired of people who justify being rude based on other peoples behavior.
Or treat civility as somthing they dont have time for because their life is so busy. (per our other comment on the other post I posted on today)
You say you have kids...but if your child treated said to you "dont let the door hit ya" how would you react? Would you teach them that isnt the most prudent action...or would you think that was justifiable because you say it?
Bottom line...look in the mirror....how would you want to be treated?
Do you think such concepts are not realistic?
Roman