Posted by John Williams on January 25, 2009 at 2:47 PM
For those who are unaware or have forgotten, there is some great info in the FAQs on how to keep the quality of this forum at its best. This information is from the FAQ (it’s actually highlighted there):
We invite you to post your comments on photos! Even if you do not feel "qualified" to critique an image, telling the photographer what it is that you like (or dislike) about an image in your own words is helpful and an important part of the image critique process! Learn more about The Art of Image Critique.
We recommend that you contact other image critique gallery participants using their email link to request comments on your photos.
NPN Staff Suggestion - For every photo you post, comment on at least five!
With that in mind, here is a recent breakdown of some PNWNP posting ratios (see the disclaimer at the end):
EDIT **Some found the numbers I originally posted quite offensive, so I've removed the numbers. (They are always available at the bottom of anyone's post or comment for those interested.) The FAQ reminder was the important part; my apologies to any I may have offended.**
Those in the top group deserve special thanks, and those who are following the FAQ also deserve a round of applause. IMHO, those of you who are posting less than the FAQ recommends shouldn’t be surprised if you receive fewer comments than you desire. Certainly don’t throw stones if you live in a glass house?
Several have also questioned the quality of feedback. Again, if we all followed the FAQS (here is a great article by Jim) life would be pretty good.
I'll get back off the soapbox now. Feel free to hop on and give the other side of the coin.
Disclaimer: I am sure I’ve made some errors in the numbers, spellings, etc. noted above. I apologize in advance, and please feel free to post corrections. In addition, some of the above are not regular participants in the PNWNP because Marc’s threads draw quite a bit from outside.
I fit in the category of those who are only able to participate sporadically (but my ratios not too bad ) and I apologize if that’s frustrating to some.
Good info John, I should have read the faq. I will definitely make an effort to comment more.
Posted by Mark Hudon on January 25, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Interesting that Darren is close to the bottom of the list yet he decries the lack of feedback he's received. Seems that you get what you give, eh?
Posted by Marc Adamus on January 25, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Agreed, Mark. I'd also point out that it's as much about quality of comment as quantity as I see it. I'm usually more detailed than others.
Posted by Mark Windom on January 25, 2009 at 3:23 PM
My participation (8.22, by the way) on this forum has dropped way off simply cuz I usually get to a post late and after what I would have said has already been said. A pat on the back after having received 10 others isn't beneficial to anyone, is it? Photography is a full-time venture for me and the last several months have been taken switching stock agencies among other things. The last thing I want to do right now is sit in front of my computer and peruse others' work.
Posted by Carol Nichols on January 25, 2009 at 4:17 PM
I am one of the lurkers who come here to learn and see the amazing photos you all produce. I don't comment because I don't feel I'm qualified (it can be quite intimidating to step into the mix of great photogs here), but I don't post photos either (yet). I imagine there are a lot of lurkers like me. I am always reading comments and photo data in order to learn and have to say that the number of comments is not what it's all about. A detailed comment from Marc will teach someone more than 100 comments from another. But also one little suggestion in a small comment can make a huge difference as well. So I say, appreciate what you learn from the comments and don't worry about how many there are. And take every view as a compliment that someone wanted to take a look at your photo! For anyone who sells their photos, the publicity you're getting from this site is extremely valuable.
Posted by Bryan Swan on January 25, 2009 at 4:37 PM
One thing to keep in mind about these sort of statistics is the frequency of posting of pictures isn't uniform across all who visit the board(s). Mark Hudon, for example, seems to post pretty frequently - much more than me - which is why his post to comment ratio is lower than mine is. But it is at least a way to quantify participation. And it is certainly a LOT more constructive than Flickr (whats the point of commenting if its forced as a requirement of sharing your picture?)
Posted by Cliff Dodge on January 25, 2009 at 4:55 PM
I'm a lurker and a poster and as Carol N. said, still dont feel qualified to make a technical critique. Now one that is appealing to the eye is another thing, and that is what most of my comments are, good or bad, thats it from me till i quit my real job and make a living with photography.......which will be never. :-) I guess a technical critique of a photo would be exposure, shutterspeed, iso, focus, composition...? I guess what makes me think of that is thinking of what i do before i take a shot, try and let others see what i want them to see, and when a little thing such as a branch gets in the way that i dont see i sure appreciate the response from others, so i should start looking harder to help also. :-)
Interesting stuff, John. Thanks for taking the time and effort to put the info together.
As a newer member, I don't see the so called "problems" with this forum. Maybe there were better times - I don't know. NPN is one of the few places that I feel like I can give an honest critique to someone without feeling like I am the redheaded stepchild of the group, and looking like an ass for not jumping on the buddy-buddy backrubbers bandwagon. This is the only place online where I am an interacting member just for that reason. I have a FM account, smugmug site, and browse p-base and flickr quite often. True image critque is a pretty rare commodity on those sites. "Nice DOF" doesn't cut it for me. While the stats John has posted somewhat represent participation, there always will be the "nice DOF" comments and the "beer mug clinkers" to dilute the numbers. My goal here is to share, learn, and interact with folks who have the same enthusiasm for photography and nature as I do. So far so good in my opinion. And money well spent.
Looking at my own middle of the road numbers, I will try and comment more around here with honest opinions, and best intentions.
Posted by Mark Hudon on January 25, 2009 at 5:22 PM
I guess my posts to comments ratio would be better if I hadn't posted all those "Xxx gets the EP pick this week!" announcements. You could that say my ratio suffers because of my community involvement.
Harumph! That'll teach me!
I'll try to comment more. I wish I could post more photos, too, but scanning film is expensive, and I tend to only do it every year or two with my favorite images. I'm trying to enjoy this lifelong pursuit while staying firmly in the black.
Posted by John Williams on January 25, 2009 at 6:34 PM
Thanks to all for adding your thoughts, and especially for taking my original post in its intended spirit of improving the forum (as opposed to “calling out” or anything like that).
If I may expound on the above, I would like to emphasize that I posted links to FAQs that deal with both quantity and quality. In my mind they are equal. It’s easy to get lost in the numbers because calculating quantity is so easy. Quality is much harder to objectively assess, but is just as important. Either one without the other weakens the forum community.
I would also like to point out that the FAQs (to my knowledge) are mute on the point of how often or regular to participate. I don’t know of any rule that says if you view you must post or comment, and I suspect that NPN was designed to encourage lurkers (it certainly doesn’t discourage them). I personally think that’s great, as noted above it allows for a lot of exposure.
Several comments above address how tough it is to participate when you are busy, and as I’ve noted I fall into this category. But this does not change the fact (unless you are happy with people seeing your work and not commenting on it) that if you have enough time to post you should have enough time to comment.
I find the professional/amateur interaction of NPN to be very interesting. It seems to me that NPN can be a true win/win situation, with amateurs providing “potential market” feedback for professionals and professional sharing their expertise with amateurs. Regardless, I think the recommended 1:5 ratio of quality comments works well for us all.
Marc, I’d like to specifically complement you for regularly posting in threads of photographers at the beginning end of the learning curve. This is not a given amongst your peers. I come from the viewpoint of the amateur so maybe I carry a certain bias, but it is a loss if a professional rarely posts in anything but other professionals’ threads. I smiled when I saw your comment above too. Not because I think quality is enough to carry the day, but because despite the prolific comments you receive you probably get about 3.62 nuggets per thread so you’re probably even .
My amateurish simplification of the above is that if you play, pay. If you pay, take the time to read the FAQs and learn how to play well. I am as human as the rest of us. My posting ratio is high, but my quality has a long way to go. I will continue to work on this.
Posted by Laurie Wendt on January 25, 2009 at 8:21 PM
I've been hanging around PNWNP for about 6 months now as I plan trips to Oregon and Washington.
One of the guys on RMNP was kind enough to tell me about NPN a few years ago while planning photo trips to Colorado. I've been hooked ever since. When I first joined I read through the FAQ's to make sure I knew what was expected of me as a member. I feel I've more than gotten my money's worth by what I've learned from everyone on all the regional forums. I find myself commenting when I have something to say. I ask a question when I want to know something. I think it's unfortunate that some people aren't happy with this forum. That is their choice. I however, think it's great.
I wanted to take this opportunity to thank everyone here for whatever participation they do. It is a great resource for "out of staters" like me. The many incredible photos posted here have made me want to come see these places with my own eyes.
In my case, I sometimes find it difficult to explain in words why I like or dislike a photo posted. I just know when I see something I really like. As I continue to lurk here I will definitely try and post more details in my comments.
Posted by Erik Lundh on January 25, 2009 at 8:52 PM
The last couple of years I haven't posted many images because the battle I've been fighting has taken alot out of me mentally and physically (including five surgeries). I worked full time through most of my treatments and that's about all I had in me. Everything is slowly getting better. My participation and quality of critiques will get there. Thanks John for starting this thread. Much appreciated.
Posted by Bryan Spahr on January 25, 2009 at 8:56 PM
John,
Thank you for posting this and bringing this issue to a discussion. I was pointed to PNW NPN by David Forster after meeting him randomly at Cape Kiwanda one evening (He might not remember me haha). In the nearly 2 years I have been viewing and posting and have learned an amazing amount. The talent here is really something to admire especially when you combine it with everyone's willingness to give REAL advice and constructive criticism. Aaron said it best when he described the types of replies seen at other sites. As someone who still has a TON to learn, tough critiques are far better for me than a pat on the back. I feel I have always gotten the best responses here ( and judging from my numbers I should be giving more ). Obviously with a wide audience and large number of members there will be some who are not completely satisfied.
-Bryan
Posted by Adrian Klein on January 25, 2009 at 9:17 PM
Thanks John for posting this. I admit, I float in and out of this forum but I am in the same boat as David F. where most of my photo business and money comes from photo clients which I need to tend to. Whenever I post, and even if I don't, I still try to comment as I can... and not just the warm and fuzzy comments.
To those of you that lurk and don't comment because you think you don't have the experience or technical expertise I will totally disagree with that way of thought. It's great to have people that are very technical and many years of experience comment. It's also benifical to get comments from folks at all levels, I feel. What may move an experienced pro may not to a newebie. This could be correct, good, bad, whatever. There is no right answer other than this is a forum for open dialogue and communication so we ALL learn and raise the bar for photography and the knowledge for each of us. Just my three cents!
John, thanks for starting this thread. When I saw your other post about my EP and read the comments, I was a little confused. Now that I have caught up with the conversation, I should say that I am only too happy to help with the ratios. Phooey! It's only a suggestion. Each person will do what they will to suit their priorities in circumstances the rest of us know nothing about. I am happy with critique and advice. I am thrilled if people enjoy just looking at my work and hope they keep me in mind for photographs and services I provide. And I certainly don't mind having my work recognized! I am transitioning to pro and have been working hard over the last few years to improve my art. This and all the forums on NPN have helped a lot– way more than I felt I could expect from other photography sites I looked at before signing up here. I like to pass on what others have helped me learn, and what I put together on my own, and hope my comments are useful = provide both feedback and encouragement. While I may not make it to full-time pro status, I hope to contribute to this communnity by commenting and posting as others are working to learn and improve and as I continue to do the same. Cheers, and lets all go look for good light and photo ops. Can't wait to see what we all come up with this year!
Posted by Cezar Mart on January 26, 2009 at 1:00 PM
I wish I could critique more, however, I have a very specific view on the photoghraphy. I am very bias against oversweetened grand-vista photographs that rely heavily on the quality of the equipment - those so called stock or calendar shots. I am bias against them so much that if I start to critique I will be either dishonest or brutal. I want to avoid it.
I am so twisted in my views, that any image that doesn't break rules of composition is exposed to my brutal comments. I love dark, twisted, rule-breaking, artsy and highly creative photographs, and the stereotypical perfect calendar or post-card images can invoke only my mockery.
You don't really want me to increase the quantity of my comments.
I will try however to comment more - and try to be more polite. Sometimes it will mean dishonesty or brutality, but if my name is on the bad list, I will try to erase it from it.
P.S. Sometimes I also get frustrated too. It seems that the ESS is the darling of this forum. Other galleries are completely ignored, and getting two comments on them should be considered a big accomplishment.
Posted by Curtis Knight on January 27, 2009 at 7:05 PM
Like I said in an earlier post today, I'm not a great people person, largely because I tend to be a little too blunt, and I'm about to prove it...
In the interest of full disclosure, I doubt if I have a 5:1 ratio when I'm posting regularly. I think the only reason I have a 7:1+ at this point is because I have posted a photo in ages.
That said, I really get annoyed with all this score-keeping silliness. John, I understand that this might not be what you intend to do, but in my mind, that's exactly what it is. intended or not. People are keeping score.
I have a successful and happy marriage, in large part because my wife and I don't "keep score". It's that same with any relationship. When people start keeping score of who does good stuff and who doesn't, the relationship starts to fall apart.
Just my opinion.
Posted by Rick Lamb on January 27, 2009 at 9:09 PM
As a moderator I am with Erik in that I too have been in far too many hospitals fighting my own similar medical battles the last few years. And like Erik I've been working my way through most of it even though I fee like crap most of the time. After a day's work I'm happy just to scan the forum and see what folks are shooting and be happy with that. I haven't been posting images much but when I do I do post comments on other's images.
I got diagnosed this past month with sleep apnea which answers a whole slew of annoyingness about my day to day life! This is on top of the other crap that is my "health". Getting a handle on the sleep apnea is going to make a wonderful change in my overall well being!! I picked up my CPAP machine today so my hopes are VERY high!!!
The good news is I've turned a corner recently and just landed a job at Microsoft - even though they are laying off. Do know that Microsoft came to me which was a HUGE personal victory!
Anyhoo I'm on the mend and I plan to post more of my work (hey I have a brand spankin new Canon 5D Mark II to play with!!!) plus comment on the work of others! I had a major hard drive melt down in my primary home/photography PC this past weekend too! The good news is I back up all my critical work/data to a 4TB Drobo NAS. The even better news is Dell is Fedexing me two new hard drives and they will arrive tomorrow.
So I tend to agree with Curtis that counting metrics on posting/commenting behavior isn't adding value. NPN has never mandated a minimum critique metric and I don't see NPN kicking anyone off the forum for not meeting a minimum. Humans do as humans are. Not all of us are the same. Contribute what you can! Post your images as often as life allows! I do think it is good etiquette to post comments on the images of others when one does post an image for critique.
As moderator I am not tasked to boot someone off the forum for not critiquing. Instead I find the wonderful magic of ya get back what ya give to rule the day.
So John how did you go about gathering these usage/posting metrics?
Might I suggest we get a list of aspects that apply to nature photography and photogrpay in general and make that a template of items to think and comment on with a cretique? I think just that with everyone looking at how they would want to hear the information....not to stickey sweet, but not brutal and uncaring would go a VERY long way here.
Just a suggestion.
Roman
Posted by Rick Lamb on January 28, 2009 at 3:05 PM
Roman this has already been done by Jim Erhardt the owner of NPN:
Posted by Cezar Mart on January 28, 2009 at 3:11 PM
Quote from the above link:
After forming an overall impression of the image, begin to identify the specific technical qualities of the image (lighting, color, contrast, composition, depth-of-field, background, etc.) that appeal or don't appeal to you. In just about any image, you can find both. Do the same with the aesthetic qualities of the image by describing any emotional response the image imparts. It's not uncommon to find images that are technically deficient, but yet impart a strong emotional response from the viewer, and visa versa. Feedback to the photographer on both the technical and aesthetic aspects of an image is useful.
Is the underlined text opening the door for general philosophical interpretation of the commented image, regardless of technical aspects?
For example a comment: a superb image for a kitchen calendar, but will never make any respected art gallery of any kind..
Would this kind of comment be appropriate?
Posted by Rick Lamb on January 28, 2009 at 3:17 PM
In any image there are two elements to consider. The technical aspects and the emotional aspects. I've seen images that break every technical rule in the book that truly impress me emotionally. The technicals are merely suggestive guidelines for creating emotion. Personally I love it when a photographer breaks the rules and creates something that moves me! We are in the end talking about art and art will always be open to interpretation!
Posted by Mark Hudon on January 28, 2009 at 3:38 PM
Ya'll know, at the end of the day, I have a life, I have a wife, a daughter, a job and other interests beside photography!
I work out, I ride my bike, I ski, I rock climb, windsurf, backpack and take pictures. I visit, take part and comment on at least five other forums. I have only so much time in my life.
I'll post and I'll comment to no set rule or method. If there is a rule or method that is set in stone, or my "ratio" is not satisfactory, you can ask me to move on and I will. Until then, my participation is going to continue to vary as it's had in the past. I'll keep commenting as I see fit. If you like that, great, if not, great, it's a free world and a big internet.
Posted by Nancy Lamb on January 29, 2009 at 12:39 AM
Ya know, I agree with Mark. Totally. I'm a paying member and I'm paid up for another 2 years. I hope you all consider that paying to be here will help keep this site afloat --- not stats that serve what I'm not sure. When I do have more time and feel like jumping back into the fray, I hope Jim will still have the site running strong.
Posted by John Williams on January 30, 2009 at 12:45 AM
Rick, I used the Topics and Replies numbers at the bottom of each person's comments.
Posted by Darren White on January 31, 2009 at 3:31 AM
I know I Know, I should have got a "hey buddy, don't let the door hit y in the A$$ on the way out", Thanks Mark, I appreciate that after the email you sent me......much appreciated.....
I can say this.....I did turned a few people onto this board. and I did learn a lot by looking at the other folks images when I started getting back into it......and my photography is where it is today because of your critiques and seeing what everyone else liked here....... before I ever joined this forum I never added a foreground, nothing to lead the viewer intto the scene....I was a dead on shooter...if it was a waterfall, I would shoot the falls and thats it.....this forum taught me a great deal about photography and what other people liked.......since then I have found my own style, just like the rest of you......so in part I do have this place to thank for that.........and for Flickr because when there is a place I want to shoot I just look it up there and I can usually figure out something different based on the images that are posted there.........
Posted by Curtis Knight on February 2, 2009 at 11:04 AM
Rick, I used the Topics and Replies numbers at the bottom of each person's comments.
In that case, the numbers are incredibly skewed for the very reason Mark H. pointed out above. Not every post is a solicitation for comment on a photo.
Darren, in case you're still lurkng out there, as much as I disagree with the point of this thread, I don't believe the intent was to chase anyone away. John's intent was honerable, but his approach/method needs a little work... IMHO. Don't leave the forum. I enjoy viewing your work and admire the incredible transformation you photography has gone through since you joined the forum.
Posted by John Williams on February 2, 2009 at 5:40 PM
To all those whose "numbers are incredibly skewed" because you've been posting a lot without a photo, my apologies. My bad. (In my original post I noted "Disclaimer: I am sure I’ve made some errors in the numbers...").
Curtis you and I may disagree on whether keeping score is "silly" or not (I happen to believe we all do it a tad, concious or not), but I think we both would agree that any _need_ to keep score is very silly. I vote we move on and get back to enjoying photography.
Posted by Curtis Knight on February 4, 2009 at 4:23 PM
(I happen to believe we all do it a tad, concious or not)
Agreed. nothing in this world is absolute.
Posted by Tom Kloster on February 11, 2009 at 11:06 PM
John, thanks for taking the time to put this together and for including me, even though I dropped out after my subscription expired last summer (clearly, my absence caused an enormous vacuum!)
I still lurk the board periodically, mostly to check out images from a couple of the regulars whose photos I greatly admire, and have learned from over the past year or so. In my case, I had plenty of constructive comments for a newbie in the beginning, but I did perceive an in/out group, where an image that violated the rules (non-nature, for example) would get a bunch of comments if posted by an in-group regular, where one of the peripheral members might get zero comments on a legitimate image.
In the interest of keeping the board open and evolving with new members, that shouldn't happen -- and my solution was pretty simple, too: I simply focused my comments on those who weren't getting any feedback. In fact, that might be a better formula than keeping a quota -- simply adopting a group ethic that no post goes without at least 3 or 4 constructive comments. As great as Marc's photos are, after all, he doesn't benefit as much from replies 22, 23 and 24 as a newbie might from getting just one comment (and Marc, that was not a dig, but just testament to your incredible ability -- I greatly appreciated the fact that you took the time to give me feedback as a newbie!)
I think another complication on boards like this is the "amateurs vs. professionals" divide, largely based on equipment prowess, to be quite frank. One solution would be to simply have membership levels priced according to self-described status -- if you can afford professional equipment, then you'd probably be ready to step up to higher membership threshold. That would help improve the dialogue and reduce some of the competitive overtones that I know I felt -- e.g., that I should view my amateur status as a limit on what I'm able to accomplish with a camera, and need to have that suggested within the discussions. I don't believe that for a second, and BTW, especially credit Marc Adamus for regularly refuting that culture. But it is an issue on the board.
Those are my $0.02, for what they're worth. I learned a lot from the board in a bit over a year, but definitely felt like I was getting increasingly fewer and less constructive comments, and just wasn't getting the same feedback that I was putting in. I'll lurk, and may join in again -- unlike Darren, I've not seen much to like about Flickr (where honest criticism is nearly absent) for somebody who wants to learn from mistakes.
Discussion
31 repliesWith that in mind, here is a recent breakdown of some PNWNP posting ratios (see the disclaimer at the end):
EDIT **Some found the numbers I originally posted quite offensive, so I've removed the numbers. (They are always available at the bottom of anyone's post or comment for those interested.) The FAQ reminder was the important part; my apologies to any I may have offended.**
Those in the top group deserve special thanks, and those who are following the FAQ also deserve a round of applause. IMHO, those of you who are posting less than the FAQ recommends shouldn’t be surprised if you receive fewer comments than you desire. Certainly don’t throw stones if you live in a glass house?
Several have also questioned the quality of feedback. Again, if we all followed the FAQS (here is a great article by Jim) life would be pretty good.
I'll get back off the soapbox now. Feel free to hop on and give the other side of the coin.
Disclaimer: I am sure I’ve made some errors in the numbers, spellings, etc. noted above. I apologize in advance, and please feel free to post corrections. In addition, some of the above are not regular participants in the PNWNP because Marc’s threads draw quite a bit from outside.
I fit in the category of those who are only able to participate sporadically (but my ratios not too bad
As a newer member, I don't see the so called "problems" with this forum. Maybe there were better times - I don't know. NPN is one of the few places that I feel like I can give an honest critique to someone without feeling like I am the redheaded stepchild of the group, and looking like an ass for not jumping on the buddy-buddy backrubbers bandwagon. This is the only place online where I am an interacting member just for that reason. I have a FM account, smugmug site, and browse p-base and flickr quite often. True image critque is a pretty rare commodity on those sites. "Nice DOF" doesn't cut it for me. While the stats John has posted somewhat represent participation, there always will be the "nice DOF" comments and the "beer mug clinkers" to dilute the numbers. My goal here is to share, learn, and interact with folks who have the same enthusiasm for photography and nature as I do. So far so good in my opinion. And money well spent.
Looking at my own middle of the road numbers, I will try and comment more around here with honest opinions, and best intentions.
Harumph! That'll teach me!
If I may expound on the above, I would like to emphasize that I posted links to FAQs that deal with both quantity and quality. In my mind they are equal. It’s easy to get lost in the numbers because calculating quantity is so easy. Quality is much harder to objectively assess, but is just as important. Either one without the other weakens the forum community.
I would also like to point out that the FAQs (to my knowledge) are mute on the point of how often or regular to participate. I don’t know of any rule that says if you view you must post or comment, and I suspect that NPN was designed to encourage lurkers (it certainly doesn’t discourage them). I personally think that’s great, as noted above it allows for a lot of exposure.
Several comments above address how tough it is to participate when you are busy, and as I’ve noted I fall into this category. But this does not change the fact (unless you are happy with people seeing your work and not commenting on it) that if you have enough time to post you should have enough time to comment.
I find the professional/amateur interaction of NPN to be very interesting. It seems to me that NPN can be a true win/win situation, with amateurs providing “potential market” feedback for professionals and professional sharing their expertise with amateurs. Regardless, I think the recommended 1:5 ratio of quality comments works well for us all.
Marc, I’d like to specifically complement you for regularly posting in threads of photographers at the beginning end of the learning curve. This is not a given amongst your peers. I come from the viewpoint of the amateur so maybe I carry a certain bias, but it is a loss if a professional rarely posts in anything but other professionals’ threads. I smiled when I saw your comment above too. Not because I think quality is enough to carry the day, but because despite the prolific comments you receive you probably get about 3.62 nuggets per thread so you’re probably even
My amateurish simplification of the above is that if you play, pay. If you pay, take the time to read the FAQs and learn how to play well. I am as human as the rest of us. My posting ratio is high, but my quality has a long way to go. I will continue to work on this.
One of the guys on RMNP was kind enough to tell me about NPN a few years ago while planning photo trips to Colorado. I've been hooked ever since. When I first joined I read through the FAQ's to make sure I knew what was expected of me as a member. I feel I've more than gotten my money's worth by what I've learned from everyone on all the regional forums. I find myself commenting when I have something to say. I ask a question when I want to know something. I think it's unfortunate that some people aren't happy with this forum. That is their choice. I however, think it's great.
I wanted to take this opportunity to thank everyone here for whatever participation they do. It is a great resource for "out of staters" like me. The many incredible photos posted here have made me want to come see these places with my own eyes.
In my case, I sometimes find it difficult to explain in words why I like or dislike a photo posted. I just know when I see something I really like. As I continue to lurk here I will definitely try and post more details in my comments.
Thank you for posting this and bringing this issue to a discussion. I was pointed to PNW NPN by David Forster after meeting him randomly at Cape Kiwanda one evening (He might not remember me haha). In the nearly 2 years I have been viewing and posting and have learned an amazing amount. The talent here is really something to admire especially when you combine it with everyone's willingness to give REAL advice and constructive criticism. Aaron said it best when he described the types of replies seen at other sites. As someone who still has a TON to learn, tough critiques are far better for me than a pat on the back. I feel I have always gotten the best responses here ( and judging from my numbers I should be giving more
-Bryan
To those of you that lurk and don't comment because you think you don't have the experience or technical expertise I will totally disagree with that way of thought. It's great to have people that are very technical and many years of experience comment. It's also benifical to get comments from folks at all levels, I feel. What may move an experienced pro may not to a newebie. This could be correct, good, bad, whatever. There is no right answer other than this is a forum for open dialogue and communication so we ALL learn and raise the bar for photography and the knowledge for each of us. Just my three cents!
I am so twisted in my views, that any image that doesn't break rules of composition is exposed to my brutal comments. I love dark, twisted, rule-breaking, artsy and highly creative photographs, and the stereotypical perfect calendar or post-card images can invoke only my mockery.
You don't really want me to increase the quantity of my comments.
I will try however to comment more - and try to be more polite. Sometimes it will mean dishonesty or brutality, but if my name is on the bad list, I will try to erase it from it.
P.S. Sometimes I also get frustrated too. It seems that the ESS is the darling of this forum. Other galleries are completely ignored, and getting two comments on them should be considered a big accomplishment.
In the interest of full disclosure, I doubt if I have a 5:1 ratio when I'm posting regularly. I think the only reason I have a 7:1+ at this point is because I have posted a photo in ages.
That said, I really get annoyed with all this score-keeping silliness. John, I understand that this might not be what you intend to do, but in my mind, that's exactly what it is. intended or not. People are keeping score.
I have a successful and happy marriage, in large part because my wife and I don't "keep score". It's that same with any relationship. When people start keeping score of who does good stuff and who doesn't, the relationship starts to fall apart.
Just my opinion.
I got diagnosed this past month with sleep apnea which answers a whole slew of annoyingness about my day to day life! This is on top of the other crap that is my "health". Getting a handle on the sleep apnea is going to make a wonderful change in my overall well being!! I picked up my CPAP machine today so my hopes are VERY high!!!
The good news is I've turned a corner recently and just landed a job at Microsoft - even though they are laying off. Do know that Microsoft came to me which was a HUGE personal victory!
Anyhoo I'm on the mend and I plan to post more of my work (hey I have a brand spankin new Canon 5D Mark II to play with!!!) plus comment on the work of others! I had a major hard drive melt down in my primary home/photography PC this past weekend too! The good news is I back up all my critical work/data to a 4TB Drobo NAS. The even better news is Dell is Fedexing me two new hard drives and they will arrive tomorrow.
So I tend to agree with Curtis that counting metrics on posting/commenting behavior isn't adding value. NPN has never mandated a minimum critique metric and I don't see NPN kicking anyone off the forum for not meeting a minimum. Humans do as humans are. Not all of us are the same. Contribute what you can! Post your images as often as life allows! I do think it is good etiquette to post comments on the images of others when one does post an image for critique.
As moderator I am not tasked to boot someone off the forum for not critiquing. Instead I find the wonderful magic of ya get back what ya give to rule the day.
So John how did you go about gathering these usage/posting metrics?
Just a suggestion.
Roman
The Art of Image Critique
Great grist for the issue at hand!
Is the underlined text opening the door for general philosophical interpretation of the commented image, regardless of technical aspects?
For example a comment: a superb image for a kitchen calendar, but will never make any respected art gallery of any kind..
Would this kind of comment be appropriate?
I work out, I ride my bike, I ski, I rock climb, windsurf, backpack and take pictures. I visit, take part and comment on at least five other forums. I have only so much time in my life.
I'll post and I'll comment to no set rule or method. If there is a rule or method that is set in stone, or my "ratio" is not satisfactory, you can ask me to move on and I will. Until then, my participation is going to continue to vary as it's had in the past. I'll keep commenting as I see fit. If you like that, great, if not, great, it's a free world and a big internet.
I can say this.....I did turned a few people onto this board. and I did learn a lot by looking at the other folks images when I started getting back into it......and my photography is where it is today because of your critiques and seeing what everyone else liked here....... before I ever joined this forum I never added a foreground, nothing to lead the viewer intto the scene....I was a dead on shooter...if it was a waterfall, I would shoot the falls and thats it.....this forum taught me a great deal about photography and what other people liked.......since then I have found my own style, just like the rest of you......so in part I do have this place to thank for that.........and for Flickr because when there is a place I want to shoot I just look it up there and I can usually figure out something different based on the images that are posted there.........
In that case, the numbers are incredibly skewed for the very reason Mark H. pointed out above. Not every post is a solicitation for comment on a photo.
Darren, in case you're still lurkng out there, as much as I disagree with the point of this thread, I don't believe the intent was to chase anyone away. John's intent was honerable, but his approach/method needs a little work... IMHO. Don't leave the forum. I enjoy viewing your work and admire the incredible transformation you photography has gone through since you joined the forum.
Curtis you and I may disagree on whether keeping score is "silly" or not (I happen to believe we all do it a tad, concious or not), but I think we both would agree that any _need_ to keep score is very silly. I vote we move on and get back to enjoying photography.
Agreed. nothing in this world is absolute.
I still lurk the board periodically, mostly to check out images from a couple of the regulars whose photos I greatly admire, and have learned from over the past year or so. In my case, I had plenty of constructive comments for a newbie in the beginning, but I did perceive an in/out group, where an image that violated the rules (non-nature, for example) would get a bunch of comments if posted by an in-group regular, where one of the peripheral members might get zero comments on a legitimate image.
In the interest of keeping the board open and evolving with new members, that shouldn't happen -- and my solution was pretty simple, too: I simply focused my comments on those who weren't getting any feedback. In fact, that might be a better formula than keeping a quota -- simply adopting a group ethic that no post goes without at least 3 or 4 constructive comments. As great as Marc's photos are, after all, he doesn't benefit as much from replies 22, 23 and 24 as a newbie might from getting just one comment (and Marc, that was not a dig, but just testament to your incredible ability -- I greatly appreciated the fact that you took the time to give me feedback as a newbie!)
I think another complication on boards like this is the "amateurs vs. professionals" divide, largely based on equipment prowess, to be quite frank. One solution would be to simply have membership levels priced according to self-described status -- if you can afford professional equipment, then you'd probably be ready to step up to higher membership threshold. That would help improve the dialogue and reduce some of the competitive overtones that I know I felt -- e.g., that I should view my amateur status as a limit on what I'm able to accomplish with a camera, and need to have that suggested within the discussions. I don't believe that for a second, and BTW, especially credit Marc Adamus for regularly refuting that culture. But it is an issue on the board.
Those are my $0.02, for what they're worth. I learned a lot from the board in a bit over a year, but definitely felt like I was getting increasingly fewer and less constructive comments, and just wasn't getting the same feedback that I was putting in. I'll lurk, and may join in again -- unlike Darren, I've not seen much to like about Flickr (where honest criticism is nearly absent) for somebody who wants to learn from mistakes.
Tom