Posted by Stan Rose on January 25, 2009 at 8:50 PM
Some whining over at PNWNP got me thinking about this issue again. I can't count the number of times I've posted a shot here hoping for some constructive critique, and when i get none, thinking the shot is good i post it over at ESS only to have several people point out what should have been obvious (even to me!) problems. So, ive come to the point where i pretty much accept this Forum as a place more to share photos and get some general reactions, while i go over to ESS for more valuable critique. That doesnt stop me from offering my honest opinion on shots posted here, especially when people ask for it. So, I apologize if i come across as being negative at times here on people's posts, i just figure that if i offer my honest opinion im more likely to get honest feedback in return. But, it does sometimes feel uncomfortable when im the only one who has any sort of critique to offer on a particular post, after a string of a dozen or so "Great Shot!--"Atta-Boy!" comments. That happens more frequently than i'd like, quite frankly. I'd be curious what other people perceive. Evidently some over at PNW just kept quiet until they couldnt take it any more--now they're leaving the site for good!
Posted by Arthur Lund on January 25, 2009 at 9:06 PM
Sounds like you have solved your problem.
Post where the "valuable critique" is located
I try to encourage C&C and say so in my posts as I feel I have a lot to learn. I also tend to go easy on the criticism given my relatively new status. When I do comment I try to choose words carefully and take the written words on a page lightly as they can have a stronger than intended impact. If all I would get are wow's and atta-boy's I would grow tired of it and move on as well. Compliments are nice, but they don't always provide growth. If ESS is a better place to learn and develop photography skill, I'll be posting there instead as well.
S
Posted by Timothy Tonge on January 25, 2009 at 9:38 PM
Tough balance to strike between being negative and supportive. Its nice to be able to post on this site without being slammed! Though constructive help always appreciated
Curious what ESS and PNW are, dont know the acronims!
The acronyms were clear at first for me as well. A quick glance at the forum select gave me:
ESS = Earth Sea and sky
PNW = Pacific North West (forum)
Would others agree?
S
Posted by Mel Ladewig on January 25, 2009 at 9:48 PM
While you may get more constructive criticism in ESS, there is also a certain herd mentality.
And there is also the sense in general that you need to be delicate with criticism over the web. Tone and inflection do not translate well over the web and it can cause a well intentioned criticism to sound harsh.
Yeah - this is a tough topic for a variety of reasons. Here's my take, FWIW
Most of the times I post an image for comment or critique. I'm relatively new and struggling with a variety of issues in composition, lens use, etc, etc. I generally encourage comments and critiques and try to remember to ask for them in the image I post. Often I suggest ideas I'm unsure of (is this too pink comes to mind). Other times I just open it up.
I find, in a lot of cases, people are uncertain, unwilling, or don't care to comment if they don't know me personally - or if they just haven't seen me post for a while. I've been a member here, NPN, and TPN for about 3 or 4 years. When I started posting again after some time off from TPN it took a while before anyone had anything to say about my images.
I think message boards, like almost everything else in life, can be very cliquey at times. Some people are willing to comment and critique almost everything, while others will only critique something if they like it to begin with, or it's in their line of interest, etc, etc.
Then you have issues about dealing with critiques. I once suggested I didn't agree with comment made about one of my images - not confrontational, just up front as to why I thought it was contrary to what I was hoping to express. It took a while for that person to comment on my images again.
I do occasionally fish for compliments without asking for critiques. Usually if it’s an image I love and don’t care what other people think I’ll just throw it out there. Depends on the forum as well; some are productive, some ain’t so much.
As for when I critique an image - well, usually I only do so if someone explicitly asks for a critique or comments. I’m for more likely to say something if someone asks about a perceived problem with the image. I’m also unsure of critiquing the “big names” or “regulars” on most forums. Just a mental pecking order or something like that.
I’m on a forum for humanitarian photographers. We do one image a week for critiques and you’re expected to participate in the comments if you ever want to get on the list to post an image. It is slow but the comments generally are more thoughtful than any other site I’ve visited. Obviously this is too cumbersome for the RMNP forum, and I wouldn’t want to see it change along these lines.
As far as you posting constructive comments on my images, please, have at ‘er. I’m trying to be more productive on this site and I’d value your input. I’d like that more than a dozen “Great shot” comments (not that I don’t appreciate those, they just don’t help me grow; encourage me to shoot yes ) This leads me to ask why you didn’t suggest I straighten the horizon on my Sprague lake shot (kidding, kidding, but it looks crooked to me).
This is something that can change if enough people are will to put in the time. I for one will be more willing to comment on your's (and other's) images in the future when they ask for input.
Posted by Don Grall on January 25, 2009 at 11:08 PM
I think if you want unbiased, insightful, helpful critiques you need to post in the Anonymous gallery. In forums where people know you personally, many are usually unwilling to issue a negative response (they don't want to upset a friend). In a world where negativity is in the majority of all venues, it's not only wonderful, but for some it is necessary to find a place that issues supportive comments. And just like you mention some have left certain forums or groups from lack of critical comments, I know some who have left because of a lack of supportive comments. It works both ways.
Posted by Stan Rose on January 25, 2009 at 11:17 PM
Very True, Don. Although, im actually tougher on the people i know because i assume they know im trying to be nothing but helpful. Thanks to the others too for commenting. Aleksei, i think you brought up a point that might be the easiest solution--if someone asks for critique, give it, if they don't then assume that none is wanted . I might just do that from now on.
these forums are social gathering places as well as critique forums. I don't know the details at the other aforementioned site, but can only say that virtually any discourse I've seen on this site comes from well intentioned individuals. thats what makes it cool. If you want a brutally honest critique, ask for it. I like conversing with skilled shooters in an informal setting.
You bring up a good point George; some people are here for the camaraderie first, changing the way they create images isn’t necessarily their drive. Some days I just want to show something that meant enough to me to take a picture.
Room for both don't you think.
Posted by Kurt Rinne on January 26, 2009 at 12:14 AM
I echo Alex's and George's comments, especially after meeting everyone at the Shindig.
I myself rarely post photos, but that is mostly due to the caliber of photo’s I see on this site. It’s a hard act to follow, but when I do get the nerve to post a photo I do appreciate comments as that is the only way I will learn. In being new to this hobby it’s hard for me to critique photos as that is also a learning process.
Kurt
Posted by Momo Vuyisich on January 26, 2009 at 12:44 AM
I think that people post for different reasons here, not always looking for a critique. If someone wants honest critique of their photo, I think they should specifically say that. Otherwise, I think most people are uncomfortable writing a critique, since it may be perceived as a negative comment. Just my $0.02
Posted by Grant Collier on January 26, 2009 at 12:46 AM
I don't post much in ESS, so if I feel I have something constructive to say about an image here, I'll say it, especially if they asked for C&C. Hope that doesn't come off negatively and I don't think it does. I'm still waiting for CAZ to post an image on here so I can just rip into it and let him have it , but of course he never does post anything.
Of course, even w/out that much criticism going on here, there's still plenty to learn by seeing what others are doing.
O.k., you all suck! And you should all give up photography for good. That would leave a lot of customers for me.
Seriously, I think all of you have very valid points. Stan, I promise to be brutal from now on. Often I find it hard to post a comment on a photo that is to my tastes not very good. I am afraid I might say something that would drive that person away, and I would hate the thought that I might ever cause that. I guess I just need to choose my words carefully and dive in on as many as I have time for. I do try to be supportive and when able specific. Of course there are those who have seen my work and might wonder what in the world I am doing commenting on anybody's work. It is also hard to take criticisms on our babies sometimes. Our art is very personal to us. Reject my art-reject me kind of thinking. Probably we all need to have thicker skins, because we will learn if we listen to most of the comments.
Let's all try to support each other by commenting when asked for.
Morris
Posted by Jesse Speer on January 26, 2009 at 2:23 AM
I'm going to read the other comments after I post my initial thoughts, so sorry if I duplicate ...
You're right, seems like a lot of whining to me. I don't really see a problem around here, as there are designated critique forums within NPN - apart from the regional social forums. RMNP is a very social discussion forum. If someone wants more than the typical "critique" here, I think the specific request should be spelled out. We come here for many reasons and motivations - not all of which leave time for proper critique of all images posted. Seems natural considering the volume of posts here at NPN. No need to alter your own posting habits, Stan - as I'm everyone appreciates your hearty contribution to NPN.
You have to consider the nature of online critiques (and the rushed nature of modern life in general). Most people spend a few brief moments evaluating a photograph, before they move on to another post - or get sucked away from the internet. It's challenging to offer anything deep and meaningful under such circumstances ... and stuff like technical problems will be frequently overlooked. Furthermore, it's nearly impossible to critique properly with the heavy volume of a place like NPN. That's why you see a lot of "atta boys" or "try doing _______ to your photo". I honestly see no problem with this - given the nature of things. Online critiques serve a valuable purpose - within what should be a more robust strategy of evaluating our own work. But online critiques, by nature, will always be a bit "less filling".
These words come from someone who doesn't have much time to spend online ... so take my comments with a grain of salt. I will continue to offer up plenty of "atta boys" - although even my "atta boys" aren't thrown around lightly. I'm game for more, if you ask it of me.
And on a related note, I think a lot of people get stuck in the rut of relying solely on internet-based critiquing. Post your photos online ... but also make a print, tack it on your wall and stare at it for a week or two. And infuse other methods of evaluating your work (giving serious thought to personalized portfolio reviews). Getting addicted to some of the critique habits of places like NPN is a great way to find yourself in the monotonous ruts of the herd (right on, Mel) ... and it can easily develop into the bad habit of rushing through the evaluation of your own work.
Posted by Stan Rose on January 26, 2009 at 2:24 AM
Well put, Morris, thanks. I appreciate all the opinions here.
Posted by John Eavey on January 26, 2009 at 6:45 AM
After reading your post, I went to Earth Sea and Sky and the first photo I saw garnered 10 positive posts and no criticism. And, frankly, it wasn't all that great a picture.
Posted by Nick Moore on January 26, 2009 at 9:30 AM
Stan you created a valuable discusssion here, and it is one I have seen tackled many times on other forums. Out of the 5 or so photo forums/"critique" sites I have used, I actually find NPN the most helpful - though it does have it's faults still as pointed out. I have left several photo forums merely on the basis they got VERY clicky, and very atta boy. IMO it is little help to anyone when they post an image, and receive only a few comments, yet another image of similar standard can recieve 10's of comments. Thankfully NPN is not as bad at this as some forums, I'm refering to the ESS etc galleries.
What I like about NPN though is that we do have these regional forums, and these are valuable areas for critique. I often post on here first before ESS, and learn a great deal from you guys pointing out things I missed. I think perhaps as mentioned above we should indicate in the posts if we are looking for C&C, just to make it clear.
Jesse made a good point, many of us have little time to spend on these forums due to work, family etc, so often critiquing an image properly is hard; this maybe partly the problem with the many 1 line comments, and many people on ESS are trying to write as many comments as possible. I try to study the images I view for a while, and try to point out what I like, and what I don't like - I think this is more constructive, and it certainly helps me when I receive those kind of comments myself.
The worst kind of comments IMO are the negative critiques without an explanation for why the person doesn't like the image. This I have seen many times, and is possibly due to people not studying the images long enough, and writing critiques in a hurry. Wording in a critique is very important, for that reason IMO that's why it's good to point out the the negative AND the positive.
Posted by Bill Brennan on January 26, 2009 at 10:40 AM
Thanks for stimulating a good discussion about a difficult subject. Try asking for a frank critique when you post an image and feel that you would like something more than a "nice shot".
Bill Brennan
Posted by Kalin Wilson on January 26, 2009 at 10:54 AM
Good discussion and good comments. Like Jesse mentioned, I find my time limited lately to keep up with the forum. The time to do a really detailed technical review is more limited, so sometimes comments are based on a short review of the image as it's rendered in the browser, vice downloading the image and spending more time with it. I've also learned that if I'm not viewing an image on my color corrected monitor at home, I'm leary of commenting on it as the color I'm seeing is probably off. So if I'm looking at something while at work, I may not critique and may not get back to the image later. Also, I tend to not post if I'd just be repeating someone else's comments.
I find the comments and critique here very helpful. I agree with Jesse that other avenues of review should compliment what you get here. I think most people here are positive in their style and helpful, which is nice.
Posted by Phillip Noll on January 26, 2009 at 10:57 AM
Great discussion! Atta boy, Stan! No nits from me!
Seriously, I think Stan is a breath of fresh air! Honest helpful critiques are rare here and on the rest of NPN. I really get tired of all the "Great Shot!", "this is Sublime", etc., etc., when it is painfully obvious that the photo needs work or just plain isn't very good. (Yes, I'm guilty of it myself and I feel ashamed! ) Do we do any service to the photographer by telling them that their poorly executed photo is "Great" just so we appear to be "nice" or part of the "in crowd or clique"? (Yes NPN is cliquey [is that a word?]) Criticism can be hard to take but without honesty and constructive criticism you will never learn anything nor improve your craft.
Having said that I acknowledge that it is a difficult task to be honest and forthright without sounding smug or condescending. Some of us are better at it than others. Its a fine line especially within the confines of electronic communication. I once gave an honest opinion on a shot posted on NPN where there were multitudes of "Great Shot!" type comments. I felt the image had no defined subject and no composition and the light was flat and uninteresting. Mine was the only comment contrary to the string of atta boys. I even received email telling me that I "Better get with it and figure out why this is such a great shot!" Huh? Because of things like this it gets harder for me to really be honest and say what I think about an image.
Yes, NPN is a social gathering place and people want to feel welcomed and that they "fit in". And maybe many of us just want to share our photos. That's fine. Others may really want brutal honest critiques so that they can improve. I like the suggestions that, if you want a brutal critique that you ask for it. I thought that the forums used to have a check box where you could state whether or not you wanted a critique or you just wanted to share your photo? What happened to that feature? (Or am I delirious?)
So Stan, I salute you! I appreciate your honest and constructive critiques even though my ego may get bruised now and again. And I will try to follow your example of offering honest, thoughtful, helpful, and TACTFUL critiques!
Posted by Jack Brauer on January 26, 2009 at 12:48 PM
You bring up a good point, and most has been said already. Briefly, I'd echo the sentiments that ESS is more of a critique forum, and the RMNP forum isn't so much, so if you are looking for tougher critiques here you should say so in your posts.
ESS is a funny forum to me - because of the generally high level of submissions, my instinct is to only post my best stuff there... but my best stuff are the photos that I am usually happy with and not necessarily looking for critiques on. Therefore I try to only post photos that I'm unsure of or have specific questions about - to see if people bring up the questions that are in my mind.
Posted by Kurt Bowman on January 26, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Stan,
I completely understand the dilema you have stated and I agree with it on many levels, but I also THINK I might understand why it doesn't happen as often as you would like. Let me first give you my background.
I am VERY new to photography. I bought my first DSLR (or SLR of any type) in February of 2008. I joined this site after a friend I of mine told me about it and how it was an excellent place to learn. I have to admit, I am quit intimidated by the terrific work I see on this site, but I have also learned a lot from it. I look at my first photographs from 1 year ago and I think I have improved a lot since then and I credit this site for it. Not only because of the critiques I have recieved, but also because of what I've learned by viewing other people's work. I want honest feedback from people. If parts are good, I would like to know what parts and if parts are not good, I would like to know what parts. I feel it is the only way I can grow as a photogrpaher (understanding my strength and weakness). However, I also understand people being reluctant to provide construction feedback and I think I can attribute it to a few things.
The New Photographer: They might be afraid they do not know enough to give advice or contructive feedback so they repeat what others have already said. (I fall into this category many times). While the truth is their feedback is just as valuable. People that buy our work are not usually expert photographers. They are people that either simply like something about the photograph. So why wouldn't I, or anyone else, not want everyone's opinion?
The Veteran Photographer: They feel if they are too harsh, they might scare away someone and make them loose interest in photography. Or they might not want to hurt someone's feelings. I think the truth here, is no one will scare me away from something I have so much passion for. I might feel less inclined to post another crummy image, but that is what will make me work that much harder to learn the right way and my posts will keep getting better.
I think people also are commenting on several photo's each day and they do not have time to write long paragraphs on each shot, so they take the easy way out and leave a qwick "ataboy". I personally get more frustrated when I post an image and I get 1 or 2 critiuqes period. I would rather have 15 people hating it so I can fix what is wrong, than not knowing what people think of the work presented.
With that being said....maybe others are right and the best place to post might be the anonymous gallery. I have posted there a couple of times to see if the reaction is any different.
Very interesting conversation. The most productive information I have received has always been the super critical opinions/feedback I have received from people. I remember back in 1997 when I thought i had a great collection of images and brought them to a local artist I respected and he tore the stuff apart. I was devastated but can honestly say it was exactly what i needed to push my stuff up to the next level.
Suggestion to the group: Since this is something that Rene & I have been thinking about for a long while what I would suggest is that we allow people to put on the subject of the thread or within the thread that we are looking for honest criticism. We should have some sort of nomenclature to trigger what we are looking for?
Any opinions on that or best way to implement?
RichieV
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on January 26, 2009 at 3:25 PM
Richie, I was obviously operating under the mistaken assumption that any comments / reactions / critiques were weclome for all images posted on a forum. I didn't realize that one needs to specifically ask for critique!
Posted by Paul Wegemann on January 26, 2009 at 3:37 PM
Stan,
I saw this post before anyone had responded and thought that I'd give it some thought and respond later. Holy cow! You certainly started a discussion and folks have pretty much covered everything I thought to mention.
I was also under the impression that any photo posted here was open for critique, but RichieV's comment made me think otherwise. I think Richie's idea of marking one's post is a good one. Personally, I love harsh, honest critique. If I'm producing crap, I hope someone will call me on it. It's the only way to improve. I have thick skin. Having said that, if someone does issue harsh critique, they should state why they feel that way and offer a way to improve the image. I am as guilty as the next person with the the attaboy's, but I'm getting better thanks to folks like you, Stan. You've been nothing but an inspiration to me. Your honesty is truly refreshing and my critiquing has improved immensely because of it.
Paul
Absoluetly. The intent is that all criticism is appropriate and that is why we have never done anything. But very good points are being made that demonstrate that we dont always provide that level of criticism.
I dunno. We can do it however you all like.
RichieV
Posted by Rick Dunn on January 26, 2009 at 4:20 PM
Ditto Bill P. I've always operated on the premise that RMNP, NPN, PNWNP, etc., are dedicated to improving the skills of its participants. Says so right on the various home pages and, imo, it's that focus that makes these forums so valuable as compared the numerous other 'gallery' sites.
Of course there is the social element, but first and foremost this is about the "art and technique" of nature photography. My recommendation would be that if you don't want a critique, state that in your post. Worst case, you get a critique you didn't want. That's much more favorable - again, imo - than not getting a critique that you do want.
There's plenty of room for critique-oriented posting and more casual "check this out" image-posting. But let's remember why these forums were created, and why they continue to be the best on the web: they're incredibly valuable teaching tools. I personally would hate to see that take a back seat to more casual posting.
And, I'll repeat something I say every time this topic comes up - critical comments can be supportive, positive comments when offered thoughtfully. Expressing an opinion about how to improve an image is arguably the most positive, supportive thing one photographer can do for another.
Posted by Bob Falcone on January 26, 2009 at 4:27 PM
My 2 cents worth:
I view this forum as a social forum with critique thrown in as an extra added benefit. I look here to see where others shooting and what techniques they're using (especially the "where" part). I'm not looking to go and copy someone elses photos, but there are so many places, and so many ways to shoot and many aren't common knowledge. But, I digress...
This forum has as it's members beginners, seasoned amateurs and renowned professionals. I think I'm fairly good (you may or may not agree with my self-assessment), but when I see photos on here taken by others, I sometimes want to dump my gear in a drum of salt-water! In any case, the predominant level of skill I see on here is so great, that I'm leery of posting anything other than the best of my best. When I do post something, I'm (obviously) hoping to get some good remarks, but I do appreciate any and all feedback. If I have a photo that I'm not sure of, I'll usually privately e-mail it to a few people and get their input...better to have just a few people think I'm a hack than everyone on the forum.
I've rambled on long enough...just my thoughts.
Posted by Stan Rose on January 26, 2009 at 7:49 PM
Thanks everyone for the valuable input in this discussion! I especially want to thank Jesse for chiming in (missed his post yesterday since we replied at the same time), since he was the one who first referred me to this site, and i credit this site with probably 90% of my improvement as a photographer in the last couple years. Thanks also Paul and Phillip for the kind words! I admit my opinion is shaped by my experience here, when i first started posting here a couple years back, i got honest feedback from folks like Jesse, Rick, Todd, Jody etc, and while at first it was a rude awakening there is no question in my mind that it made me a better photographer over time.
I want to be clear that im perfectly happy with the way this Forum is run; but i was a bit uncertain on what the consensus was as far as critique goes. From the above discussion i do think that probably the best way to go about things is to be clear in the post whether one is just sharing photos or looking for hard critique. To avoid looking like a jerk, i think i'll only offer critique when someone asks for it specifically. Since everyone here has different reasons for participation, i think that is probably the way to go.
Kurt, i do want to reiterate something that has been brought up before when this subject comes up: The most valuable "critique" often comes from the less experienced or less-established photogs here. The most successful photos appeal to people on an emotional level and not because they were shot at f/11 or because the photog used a 3-stop GND, and that's why the top pros i know value their non-photographer friends' opinions just as much as any techhical critique they get on these forums. So, i dont think anyone should feel reluctant to offer an opinion if they have one.
Posted by Scott Bacon on January 26, 2009 at 11:22 PM
The simple fact that this discussion has taken place, should go a long way to inform and remind forum participants of RMNP's mission and purpose. Thanks, Stan.
I'll be sure to carve out some extra time to rake over your next photo post, too...
Helpful discussion folks, and I want to chime in and say that that this forum is a fantastic resource for us amateurs. My participation here is sporadic, but there's no question that I've learned a ton from this site over the last couple years. (I've also learned a ton lurking on PNWNP, and it's too bad that people are unhappy over there.) I also like that this forum, unlike ESS, works for a variety of purposes: critique, current conditions, camraderie, and lots of local inspiration. I'm with those who say critique should be assumed to be welcome unless otherwise stated. If a shot of mine has technical or processing problems, I definitely want to know about it.
It's also worth observing that detailed praise of a shot can be as helpful as pointing out problems. I've often found in my creative endeavors that I'm not necessarily aware of all the elements that make a successful piece work. And even if the photographer is aware of why his shot is awesome, it may be helpful for others to have the photo's successful elements put into words.
Thanks to everyone for the time they put in here! I have not seen any photo forums that compare. One of these days, I hope I can find the spare change for a membership.
Posted by Jesse Speer on January 27, 2009 at 10:20 PM
Hey Richie,
You could implement some radio buttons in the "post a topic". Just a few options that allow the poster to hint at their intent ... "posting for an image critique", "just sharing my latest photo", "I need processing help", etc. Not sure if it's necessary, but it seems like an easy way to focus feedback - for those who are looking for specific types of feedback. But I like Rick's idea. Just add a note if you DON'T need critique. It leaves the door open for all types of critique - from technical aspects to creative aspects.
Great discussion. And Stan, you make an excellent point. Non-photogs are one of the best resources. Even if it's your mom. I'll post a photo here that receives rave reviews, and then ask my wife her opinion - and she might hate it. It leads to some great discussions on what's most important - the photographer's vision, artistic intent and the ability to engage the viewer (apart from any technical aspects). Anyone viewing this forum is more than capable of offering meaningful feedback on any member's photo post - whether they are a pro or beginner.
Posted by Jim Caffrey on January 29, 2009 at 1:20 PM
Wow! I meant to post a reply before I went out of town, but decided to wait. Quite a ball of yarn you got going here Stan. I joined this group for several reasons: the awesome talent I saw, the camaraderie, and the hope that I would be able to improve my technical skills as well as my ability to see and compose a good image. I guess I assumed that by posting an image, I would have to be ready to accept constructive criticism. I am pretty new here, so I have been reluctant to begin critiquing people's work right off the bat. I also, as others have mentioned, feel a little intimidated. So, that being said, I would agree that this forum is a critique forum, and should be treated as such. When I post, I expect, and welcome constructive criticism.
Posted by Dave Gill on January 31, 2009 at 5:18 PM
My experience with this forum has not been even. I posted an image about a year and a half ago and the critique was for the most part good, but one 'regular' poster was unpleasant, caustic, and sarcastic. The question started with whether the color balance should have been set based on part of a stream that was in the shade or the sun lite parts of the photo and whether that was causing an undesirable color cast. My photography business has grown and time has become precious, but frankly, that unpleasant exchange is the main reason that I rarely look at this forum and I don't recall the last time I posted a photo.
As Jim says, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is positive and welcome, but 'constructive' is an important qualification.
Posted by Rick Dunn on February 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM
To Dave's comment, I have oodles of experience with various critique environments. I was heavily involved in an honors critical writing program at Pitt, and took on a project as a Teaching Fellow to help writers deal with a critique-based environment.
Lots of parallels to what takes place here, but one salient point above all - for better or worse, not all critique will be delivered constructively. So, your choice is this... blow it all off because of the occasional poor delivery or learn to ignore the delivery and focus on the validity of the content.
I personally think the occasional non-constructive comment is beneficial. It conditions us to focus on the content, not the delivery. It opens us to all sources of feedback, not just those delivered in pleasant packaging. That's not an invitation to be thoughtless in our comments, but it was no coincidence that the students producing the most compelling work at Pitt were those who learned to extract value from even the least constructively delivered criticism.
Posted by Stan Rose on February 2, 2009 at 5:33 AM
I agree with that, Rick. We are living in the real world after all and it's not always a cakewalk.
If you dont learn to have thick skin here, you're certainly gonna learn it out there!
I have probably learned more from the caustic sarcasm of the above mentioned poster than anyone else on this forum, although i can see how everyone might not find it similarly charming
Discussion
37 repliesPost where the "valuable critique" is located
S
Curious what ESS and PNW are, dont know the acronims!
Tim,
The acronyms were clear at first for me as well. A quick glance at the forum select gave me:
ESS = Earth Sea and sky
PNW = Pacific North West (forum)
Would others agree?
S
And there is also the sense in general that you need to be delicate with criticism over the web. Tone and inflection do not translate well over the web and it can cause a well intentioned criticism to sound harsh.
Most of the times I post an image for comment or critique. I'm relatively new and struggling with a variety of issues in composition, lens use, etc, etc. I generally encourage comments and critiques and try to remember to ask for them in the image I post. Often I suggest ideas I'm unsure of (is this too pink comes to mind). Other times I just open it up.
I find, in a lot of cases, people are uncertain, unwilling, or don't care to comment if they don't know me personally - or if they just haven't seen me post for a while. I've been a member here, NPN, and TPN for about 3 or 4 years. When I started posting again after some time off from TPN it took a while before anyone had anything to say about my images.
I think message boards, like almost everything else in life, can be very cliquey at times. Some people are willing to comment and critique almost everything, while others will only critique something if they like it to begin with, or it's in their line of interest, etc, etc.
Then you have issues about dealing with critiques. I once suggested I didn't agree with comment made about one of my images - not confrontational, just up front as to why I thought it was contrary to what I was hoping to express. It took a while for that person to comment on my images again.
I do occasionally fish for compliments without asking for critiques. Usually if it’s an image I love and don’t care what other people think I’ll just throw it out there. Depends on the forum as well; some are productive, some ain’t so much.
As for when I critique an image - well, usually I only do so if someone explicitly asks for a critique or comments. I’m for more likely to say something if someone asks about a perceived problem with the image. I’m also unsure of critiquing the “big names” or “regulars” on most forums. Just a mental pecking order or something like that.
I’m on a forum for humanitarian photographers. We do one image a week for critiques and you’re expected to participate in the comments if you ever want to get on the list to post an image. It is slow but the comments generally are more thoughtful than any other site I’ve visited. Obviously this is too cumbersome for the RMNP forum, and I wouldn’t want to see it change along these lines.
As far as you posting constructive comments on my images, please, have at ‘er. I’m trying to be more productive on this site and I’d value your input. I’d like that more than a dozen “Great shot”
This is something that can change if enough people are will to put in the time. I for one will be more willing to comment on your's (and other's) images in the future when they ask for input.
You bring up a good point George; some people are here for the camaraderie first, changing the way they create images isn’t necessarily their drive. Some days I just want to show something that meant enough to me to take a picture.
Room for both don't you think.
I myself rarely post photos, but that is mostly due to the caliber of photo’s I see on this site. It’s a hard act to follow, but when I do get the nerve to post a photo I do appreciate comments as that is the only way I will learn. In being new to this hobby it’s hard for me to critique photos as that is also a learning process.
Kurt
Of course, even w/out that much criticism going on here, there's still plenty to learn by seeing what others are doing.
Seriously, I think all of you have very valid points. Stan, I promise to be brutal from now on.
Let's all try to support each other by commenting when asked for.
Morris
You're right, seems like a lot of whining to me. I don't really see a problem around here, as there are designated critique forums within NPN - apart from the regional social forums. RMNP is a very social discussion forum. If someone wants more than the typical "critique" here, I think the specific request should be spelled out. We come here for many reasons and motivations - not all of which leave time for proper critique of all images posted. Seems natural considering the volume of posts here at NPN. No need to alter your own posting habits, Stan - as I'm everyone appreciates your hearty contribution to NPN.
You have to consider the nature of online critiques (and the rushed nature of modern life in general). Most people spend a few brief moments evaluating a photograph, before they move on to another post - or get sucked away from the internet. It's challenging to offer anything deep and meaningful under such circumstances ... and stuff like technical problems will be frequently overlooked. Furthermore, it's nearly impossible to critique properly with the heavy volume of a place like NPN. That's why you see a lot of "atta boys" or "try doing _______ to your photo". I honestly see no problem with this - given the nature of things. Online critiques serve a valuable purpose - within what should be a more robust strategy of evaluating our own work. But online critiques, by nature, will always be a bit "less filling".
These words come from someone who doesn't have much time to spend online ... so take my comments with a grain of salt. I will continue to offer up plenty of "atta boys" - although even my "atta boys" aren't thrown around lightly. I'm game for more, if you ask it of me.
And on a related note, I think a lot of people get stuck in the rut of relying solely on internet-based critiquing. Post your photos online ... but also make a print, tack it on your wall and stare at it for a week or two. And infuse other methods of evaluating your work (giving serious thought to personalized portfolio reviews). Getting addicted to some of the critique habits of places like NPN is a great way to find yourself in the monotonous ruts of the herd (right on, Mel) ... and it can easily develop into the bad habit of rushing through the evaluation of your own work.
What I like about NPN though is that we do have these regional forums, and these are valuable areas for critique. I often post on here first before ESS, and learn a great deal from you guys pointing out things I missed. I think perhaps as mentioned above we should indicate in the posts if we are looking for C&C, just to make it clear.
Jesse made a good point, many of us have little time to spend on these forums due to work, family etc, so often critiquing an image properly is hard; this maybe partly the problem with the many 1 line comments, and many people on ESS are trying to write as many comments as possible. I try to study the images I view for a while, and try to point out what I like, and what I don't like - I think this is more constructive, and it certainly helps me when I receive those kind of comments myself.
The worst kind of comments IMO are the negative critiques without an explanation for why the person doesn't like the image. This I have seen many times, and is possibly due to people not studying the images long enough, and writing critiques in a hurry. Wording in a critique is very important, for that reason IMO that's why it's good to point out the the negative AND the positive.
Bill Brennan
I find the comments and critique here very helpful. I agree with Jesse that other avenues of review should compliment what you get here. I think most people here are positive in their style and helpful, which is nice.
Seriously, I think Stan is a breath of fresh air! Honest helpful critiques are rare here and on the rest of NPN. I really get tired of all the "Great Shot!", "this is Sublime", etc., etc., when it is painfully obvious that the photo needs work or just plain isn't very good. (Yes, I'm guilty of it myself and I feel ashamed!
Having said that I acknowledge that it is a difficult task to be honest and forthright without sounding smug or condescending. Some of us are better at it than others. Its a fine line especially within the confines of electronic communication. I once gave an honest opinion on a shot posted on NPN where there were multitudes of "Great Shot!" type comments. I felt the image had no defined subject and no composition and the light was flat and uninteresting. Mine was the only comment contrary to the string of atta boys. I even received email telling me that I "Better get with it and figure out why this is such a great shot!"
Yes, NPN is a social gathering place and people want to feel welcomed and that they "fit in". And maybe many of us just want to share our photos. That's fine. Others may really want brutal honest critiques so that they can improve. I like the suggestions that, if you want a brutal critique that you ask for it. I thought that the forums used to have a check box where you could state whether or not you wanted a critique or you just wanted to share your photo? What happened to that feature? (Or am I delirious?)
So Stan, I salute you! I appreciate your honest and constructive critiques even though my ego may get bruised now and again. And I will try to follow your example of offering honest, thoughtful, helpful, and TACTFUL critiques!
ESS is a funny forum to me - because of the generally high level of submissions, my instinct is to only post my best stuff there... but my best stuff are the photos that I am usually happy with and not necessarily looking for critiques on. Therefore I try to only post photos that I'm unsure of or have specific questions about - to see if people bring up the questions that are in my mind.
I completely understand the dilema you have stated and I agree with it on many levels, but I also THINK I might understand why it doesn't happen as often as you would like. Let me first give you my background.
I am VERY new to photography. I bought my first DSLR (or SLR of any type) in February of 2008. I joined this site after a friend I of mine told me about it and how it was an excellent place to learn. I have to admit, I am quit intimidated by the terrific work I see on this site, but I have also learned a lot from it. I look at my first photographs from 1 year ago and I think I have improved a lot since then and I credit this site for it. Not only because of the critiques I have recieved, but also because of what I've learned by viewing other people's work. I want honest feedback from people. If parts are good, I would like to know what parts and if parts are not good, I would like to know what parts. I feel it is the only way I can grow as a photogrpaher (understanding my strength and weakness). However, I also understand people being reluctant to provide construction feedback and I think I can attribute it to a few things.
The New Photographer: They might be afraid they do not know enough to give advice or contructive feedback so they repeat what others have already said. (I fall into this category many times). While the truth is their feedback is just as valuable. People that buy our work are not usually expert photographers. They are people that either simply like something about the photograph. So why wouldn't I, or anyone else, not want everyone's opinion?
The Veteran Photographer: They feel if they are too harsh, they might scare away someone and make them loose interest in photography. Or they might not want to hurt someone's feelings. I think the truth here, is no one will scare me away from something I have so much passion for. I might feel less inclined to post another crummy image, but that is what will make me work that much harder to learn the right way and my posts will keep getting better.
I think people also are commenting on several photo's each day and they do not have time to write long paragraphs on each shot, so they take the easy way out and leave a qwick "ataboy". I personally get more frustrated when I post an image and I get 1 or 2 critiuqes period. I would rather have 15 people hating it so I can fix what is wrong, than not knowing what people think of the work presented.
With that being said....maybe others are right and the best place to post might be the anonymous gallery. I have posted there a couple of times to see if the reaction is any different.
Kurt
Suggestion to the group: Since this is something that Rene & I have been thinking about for a long while what I would suggest is that we allow people to put on the subject of the thread or within the thread that we are looking for honest criticism. We should have some sort of nomenclature to trigger what we are looking for?
Any opinions on that or best way to implement?
RichieV
I saw this post before anyone had responded and thought that I'd give it some thought and respond later. Holy cow! You certainly started a discussion and folks have pretty much covered everything I thought to mention.
I was also under the impression that any photo posted here was open for critique, but RichieV's comment made me think otherwise. I think Richie's idea of marking one's post is a good one. Personally, I love harsh, honest critique. If I'm producing crap, I hope someone will call me on it. It's the only way to improve. I have thick skin. Having said that, if someone does issue harsh critique, they should state why they feel that way and offer a way to improve the image. I am as guilty as the next person with the the attaboy's, but I'm getting better thanks to folks like you, Stan. You've been nothing but an inspiration to me. Your honesty is truly refreshing and my critiquing has improved immensely because of it.
Paul
I dunno. We can do it however you all like.
RichieV
Of course there is the social element, but first and foremost this is about the "art and technique" of nature photography. My recommendation would be that if you don't want a critique, state that in your post. Worst case, you get a critique you didn't want. That's much more favorable - again, imo - than not getting a critique that you do want.
There's plenty of room for critique-oriented posting and more casual "check this out" image-posting. But let's remember why these forums were created, and why they continue to be the best on the web: they're incredibly valuable teaching tools. I personally would hate to see that take a back seat to more casual posting.
And, I'll repeat something I say every time this topic comes up - critical comments can be supportive, positive comments when offered thoughtfully. Expressing an opinion about how to improve an image is arguably the most positive, supportive thing one photographer can do for another.
I view this forum as a social forum with critique thrown in as an extra added benefit. I look here to see where others shooting and what techniques they're using (especially the "where" part). I'm not looking to go and copy someone elses photos, but there are so many places, and so many ways to shoot and many aren't common knowledge. But, I digress...
This forum has as it's members beginners, seasoned amateurs and renowned professionals. I think I'm fairly good (you may or may not agree with my self-assessment), but when I see photos on here taken by others, I sometimes want to dump my gear in a drum of salt-water! In any case, the predominant level of skill I see on here is so great, that I'm leery of posting anything other than the best of my best. When I do post something, I'm (obviously) hoping to get some good remarks, but I do appreciate any and all feedback. If I have a photo that I'm not sure of, I'll usually privately e-mail it to a few people and get their input...better to have just a few people think I'm a hack than everyone on the forum.
I've rambled on long enough...just my thoughts.
I want to be clear that im perfectly happy with the way this Forum is run; but i was a bit uncertain on what the consensus was as far as critique goes. From the above discussion i do think that probably the best way to go about things is to be clear in the post whether one is just sharing photos or looking for hard critique. To avoid looking like a jerk, i think i'll only offer critique when someone asks for it specifically. Since everyone here has different reasons for participation, i think that is probably the way to go.
Kurt, i do want to reiterate something that has been brought up before when this subject comes up: The most valuable "critique" often comes from the less experienced or less-established photogs here. The most successful photos appeal to people on an emotional level and not because they were shot at f/11 or because the photog used a 3-stop GND, and that's why the top pros i know value their non-photographer friends' opinions just as much as any techhical critique they get on these forums. So, i dont think anyone should feel reluctant to offer an opinion if they have one.
I'll be sure to carve out some extra time to rake over your next photo post, too...
It's also worth observing that detailed praise of a shot can be as helpful as pointing out problems. I've often found in my creative endeavors that I'm not necessarily aware of all the elements that make a successful piece work. And even if the photographer is aware of why his shot is awesome, it may be helpful for others to have the photo's successful elements put into words.
Thanks to everyone for the time they put in here! I have not seen any photo forums that compare. One of these days, I hope I can find the spare change for a membership.
You could implement some radio buttons in the "post a topic". Just a few options that allow the poster to hint at their intent ... "posting for an image critique", "just sharing my latest photo", "I need processing help", etc. Not sure if it's necessary, but it seems like an easy way to focus feedback - for those who are looking for specific types of feedback. But I like Rick's idea. Just add a note if you DON'T need critique. It leaves the door open for all types of critique - from technical aspects to creative aspects.
Great discussion. And Stan, you make an excellent point. Non-photogs are one of the best resources. Even if it's your mom. I'll post a photo here that receives rave reviews, and then ask my wife her opinion - and she might hate it. It leads to some great discussions on what's most important - the photographer's vision, artistic intent and the ability to engage the viewer (apart from any technical aspects). Anyone viewing this forum is more than capable of offering meaningful feedback on any member's photo post - whether they are a pro or beginner.
As Jim says, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is positive and welcome, but 'constructive' is an important qualification.
Lots of parallels to what takes place here, but one salient point above all - for better or worse, not all critique will be delivered constructively. So, your choice is this... blow it all off because of the occasional poor delivery or learn to ignore the delivery and focus on the validity of the content.
I personally think the occasional non-constructive comment is beneficial. It conditions us to focus on the content, not the delivery. It opens us to all sources of feedback, not just those delivered in pleasant packaging. That's not an invitation to be thoughtless in our comments, but it was no coincidence that the students producing the most compelling work at Pitt were those who learned to extract value from even the least constructively delivered criticism.
If you dont learn to have thick skin here, you're certainly gonna learn it out there!
I have probably learned more from the caustic sarcasm of the above mentioned poster than anyone else on this forum, although i can see how everyone might not find it similarly charming