On critiques and comments, w/Final Thoughts

On critiques and comments,

I have come to enjoy most of the benefits that NPN membership brings including, viewing postings from members in the various galleries, an archive of photography articles as well as the many forums. I especially value the ability to post an image and then receive feedback both positive and negative from all of you and then use your constructive critiques to hone my skills, technique and growth.

I am a tad older then some, in my sixties, and while I will never be an Ansell Adams or Marc Adamus I look forward to improving over the years ahead. That is why I place such a high value on comments and critiques, not to hear just what is right with an image but through your expert eyes, what needs my attention.

So many of you here in the Pacific Northwest have perfected the art of capturing our scenic waterfalls, sea and landscapes. I occasionally shoot a landscape but for over 40years wild birds have been my focus. I understand that every photographer does not share as high an interest in wildlife photography and the different challenges presented with capturing non-stationary subjects.

I received a critique and comment on a posting a few days ago
of a pair of widgeon ducks. The post received a few comments and critiques with suggestions for improvement that was helpful.
Another critique from a respected member of this forum stated in part,

“This is a pretty basic comp that a 4 year old could get with a point and shoot. “

Naturally I didn’t find this critique to be very “helpful,” but rather discouraging after spending thousands on equipment when in his opinion a simple “point and shoot” would have done the job. I wish this member while admitting, “images of ducks just dont seem to get me all hot and bothered,” hadn’t taken the time to bother writing a comment at all.

In short, most of us truly value the time you take in contributing constructive critiques and comments, and follow up by applying your suggestions. I would like to suggest when commenting or formulating a critique of someones work that you consider whether or not your thoughts and expertise will be helpful. If not, it might be best to just move on to the next posting!

Craig

Craig, to be honest, I don't mind opinions like "...4 year old could get with a point and shoot..". Maybe it was too blatant and discouraging, but still an opinion.
I post my pictures on a Polish Photographer forum, a community where each posted picture get tons of comments from a very wide variety of creative photographers, including amateurs and pros. Comments like the one you quoted happen very often there, I would say, it's a standard.
If I get an opinion like that, it makes me think. The procedure is that before I post an image, first I look at the existing pictures on the forum, then I try to imagine the picture on the wall, then I compare the image with many others and try to figure out what is missing. If I do all that, then I post. And still, there are tons of stuff I missed. And the more blatant the opinions, the more missing details come out.
Sometimes you need to filter out the comments, because they are very often untrue, or contradicting, or reflecting personal opinion of the person.

The problem on this forum is not how blatant the opinions are, but the complete lack of them. The forum seems to belong to some selected group of people, some of them with the Universe size egos, and to break through this, to establish your own position is next to impossible. If my problem were comments like you got, I would be very happy with this community. My problem is not the comments like the one you got, but the lack of any comments, the inability to establish any personal ties with the community, the ignorance I get from the community. Some big names on this forum with huge egos seem to be running the show here, they gather all the community's attention, and I am really close to giving up.
It is too bad, because since I managed to establish quite decent relations in communities like the Polish one, Deviant Art, or others, I would like to make some relations in my very own local community. And I am simply running out of ideas how to succeed in this. People are just completely closed, and I don't know how to break this.

Craig, I wish I could get opinions like the one you got...

Craig, I read that reply, and although not really helpful, I took away from it that the poster just wasn't thrilled with ducks... not so much that the photography was to blame. (And that the poster didn't really put too much thought into it because the photograph really couldn't be made by a 4 year old with a point and shoot at all.)

And Cezar has a point. Certain people can post mediocre shots and get 30-40 comments of gushing praise and others can post decent shots and get 3 lukewarm comments. (Everyone don't read too much into that, when certain people post fantastic images, and get 30-40 comments it's justified...)

I try to only comment when I have something valuable to add, but find I'm usually ignored anyway, but what the hey, maybe somebody else reading it will come away with something.

Yeah, I remember reading that comment and thinking it was a rather lazy comment. Could've been written by a 5 yr-old with a 'point and shoot' thought process....

So... while the sentiment may be valid - and while I'm a fan of candid criticism - it wouldn't take much effort to package that sentiment in a slightly more constructive wrapper. Could be laziness; could be a byproduct of contempt, bred of familiarity amongst "friends"; or it could just be an attempt at flamboyance. Either way, I think the crude delivery is more a reflection of the commenter's state of mind than it is a reflection of the quality of your image. Thus, if you can get past the delivery, you win. Because, to Cezar's point, it is a critique, and that's worth something.

This is an odd forum, imo. Some weeks it's great - quality images with wide-ranging and thoughtfully delivered critiques. Then, some weeks, it's like a dysfunctional family working out personal issues in public. Maybe that's the nature of the forums these days....

I agree that the comment was rather flippant and unfortunate. I'm tired from a day of shooting images of birds. I got 3 keepers for my efforts. I'm still learning birds so I take a lot of crummy shots for my efforts. But I love the subjects and the challenge! So I persevere! Craig please don't let one persons flippant comment get ya down and know you are not alone in your love for birds!

Well, I sympathize with you, Craig. Constructive feedback, positive or negative, makes for learning and growth. But a rude comment can be hurtful. I'd take it with a grain of salt and consider it in view of other comments received on your post… Also, consider the source may need to mature a bit.

I think what troubles me more is what Edward said… In reply to the group, not to single Edward out, I just want to say in response: Life is not generally fair! PNWNP is a group of people who enjoy an inspiriational hobby (or profession, if you are a pro). A group takes on a certain character over time. Ours seems to be at a place where it can reinvent itself. Every person in the group has valuable things to say and good images to show for critique. Please don't let perceived unfairness of who gets how many comments lead you to drop out. Then, who's left? And besides, all the rest of us miss out on the valuable feedback we are looking for to improve. In a group, people ideally depend on one another. That means that everyone who participates has the responsibilty to care about the other group members. I want to put in a plug for that and invite people back to the group to share photos and comments in a thoughtful, fun, encouraging manner. And that does not mean every comment needs to gush praise. It does mean that people should try not to be rude, careless or insensitive. Somebody out there probably thinks this is a lot of sap. If so, please share photos and comments elsewhere! And if I'm out of line, someone set me straight. But let's make this group what we want it to be! It's ours for the doing.

This is an artistic community and a learning community. I would put the emphasis on learning. As Catherine points out, we have a lot of diversity in this group from photo newbies to seasoned pros. Some of us make a buck or 2 in contests and with the occasional sale. Some of us have full time jobs in non photo related disciplines. Some of us contribute more than others on this site. Despite our location on the ladder, we participate here to improve our skill. Constructive criticism is always more helpful than spite. Think positive and keep up the good work...

There are a few people in this forum that are disrespectful and flippant in their comments. Even if the basic reality is true, I'm certain that these individuals would never say that type of comment if they were in the same room with you. It's unfortunate that being civilized in person doesn't always extend to how someone expresses themselves on the 'net.

Don't let these comments get you down, that was a nice shot.

Craig, I'm also in my sixties, somewhat new to nature and flower photography, but have enjoyed people and street photography for nearly 40 years. For the most part, I find photographers in general, as well as photographers on this forum, encouraging and willing to share their knowledge. I welcome any comment that encourages learning. I've found this forum to be particularly helpful when I've posted landscape photographs, and less helpful when I've posted macro flower images, especially if they are abstract, and now primarily post my flower images on the flora gallery.

I know little about the techniques involved with bird photography, although I enjoy birding, and might not comment because I don't feel qualified. I've enjoyed viewing your photographs, and I hope you won't let an occasional rude or inappropriate comment from someone who probably knows far less about bird photography than you do, decrease your joy of photographing birds.

Hi Craig, writing and receiving critiques is tough. I hope I have learned to take the bitter with the sweet. And the bottom line...we all have different tastes and preferences. I guess the best measure of improvement is whether you are able to imitate the quality of photos you most admire...and whether you have branched out to add your own twist or creative signature to that art. If you produce a photo that reflects beauty by your eye...there it is! And if that item is at the crossroad to receive mass applause from the audience....well, then even better...you have contributed to the community. Ken S

Hi Craig,
I have been admiring photos posted here for quite some time. Although I have not been in a position to afford the membership so I can upload my photos, I have personally learned alot from all of the people here. I see photos, and I read the critiques and I try to incorperate them into how and what I shoot. Your shots included. I have found this site, and the other networks here invaluable.
When the day comes that I start posting here, I am sure I will run into the occasional rude hit who finds the line between constructive critisism and rudeness non existent. I beleive that when that type of critisim comes my way, I'm learning more about myselve than my shooting technique

I have a bit of a different take on Rick's comment. I think that a big part of the problem is that Rick has been away from the forum for awhile, and many here aren't familiar with him. Rick has been a member here for a long time, and when I first started following NPN he was posting and commenting regularly in PNWNP. At first, I too was a bit taken aback by how acerbic his comments could be. With a quick peruse of prior posts from then, here are a few examples:

-You couldnt frame this better. Nice job here! Although if you post another version of this...I'm gonna throw up!

-#2 all the way. I hated #1...OK, well...not hated...but it did make me a bit like I was going to yammie in a handbag due to the over saturation.

-Perfect. Emotional. Gorgeous. JERK!

-I find this uninteresting. Good conversion, but the subject matter is lacking composition and photogenic qualities.

-I love that first shot you posted. This one is less than so-so

-Neither...sorry, just not doing much for me right now.

-Not doin too much for my personal tastes.

After following for a little longer though, I began to realize that was just his style. In fact, once I realized that I should be taking them tongue in cheek, I really got a kick out of them. I can easily say that I've laughed out loud more at Rick's post than just about anyone's here. Rick can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think his comments were all in good fun and not intended to be taken literally. He just forgets to add this to his more biting posts: In addition, once you get past the harshness, Rick's comments are often very good and quite helpful in improving one's photography.

Craig, you know me better than anyone on this forum and I hope you realize I completely understand why that comment was so offensive. Without knowing Rick, it would be completely over the top. I've seen your gorgeous prints at your home and your shows, and you know how jealous I am of your darkroom and "garage." Since I know your eyes see differently than mine, I'm constantly amazed. Realizing the amount of work you've put into your photography, I hope you can take comments like Rick's with a grain of salt and keep right on posting great photos.

Rick D's comment was dead on:

This is an odd forum, imo. Some weeks it's great - quality images with wide-ranging and thoughtfully delivered critiques. Then, some weeks, it's like a dysfunctional family working out personal issues in public.

I've always viewed the PNWNP as a less formal place then the Galleries. Here we kick back a bit more, post photos that are more of a stretch, wander off topic a lot more, and have quite a bit more familiarity with each other. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't.

My interest in photo forums (NPN is the only forum I post in) is always on a waxing and waning cycle. And right now I am smack dab in the middle of an apogee – at the present I easily tire seeing the same ole same ole. But I still check in on occasion, primarily here @ PNWNP, to check weather related conditions and current events ‘in the hood’. And to be honest, most of my photographic endeavors don’t include the traditional big landscape, I am more interested in the biology and it’s interactions that make up the greater whole. And it seems this forum is just the opposite – no sweat, I understand why, I get it and this is not a knock what-so-ever.

But I do notice a schism. And I am not particularly fond of how some landscapists on NPN view the other genres in nature photography. When I initially saw Rick’s comment, I thought here’s just another example of this… schism.

Then I gave his comment some additional thought. I do not know Rick, I’ve never met Rick. But I do believe Rick is a fine landscape photographer and probably a nice guy. And his comment started to sound as if he was just having a bad day or was in a sour mood. Hence my comment, sorta hoping it served a friendly cuff in the back of the head. I know he meant no malice. But we all have to realize the written word carries a lot of weight. And a comment such as his could have really hurt a thin-skinned newbie or make that individual leave NPN for greener and friendlier pastures.

My thanks to those that took the time to read my original posting and especially to all of you that took the time to share your thoughts on the subject. Prior to posting my thoughts, I had reviewed NPN's guidelines on "The art of image critique" and it's posting guidelines to be sure that my thoughts were not out of line. I agree with the purpose and expectations we should all have whether posting or commenting on a members work. I can take negative criticism, in fact I agree and look forward to how much more helpful a good constructive negative critique can be over the "good job, nice photo" pat on the back.

I admit that the original "flippant" comment was a surprise and hurtful for two reasons.

1. I take my photography work very seriously and perhaps comments on it, too seriously. Having been a lifetime birder, my goal has always been to master photo techniques that help me capture
those "national geo." images that are top notch. "The comment" told me I was not moving "ahead" with my goals but "backwards" in that persons opinion.

2. The other hurtful part of the equation, was it being posted by a member whose own images I had come to admire and therefore I placed a high degree of value on his critique.

Rick L, I owe you an apology! While being familiar with a lot of your work, I am guilty in not knowing YOU and the sometimes cutting, brutal dialogue that helps make you the individual you are. If any future postings are worthy of a critique or comment, I will look beyond the verbage for a constructive point of view.

My thanks to all that have contributed and help enlighten me as a member!
Craig

Craig,
Just coming back to read this thread again. I honestly didnt feel you needed to apologize to me, but I appreciate your sentiments in this post. I am at fault for trying to quickly dole out critiques these days when I get to, unlike a few years ago when I put too much time into commenting.

I hope you also understand that not being a birder myself, I am ignorant of that type of photography...but after trying it a few times, I understand how difficult it actually is to capture avian images and I do have respect for all who work that craft.

I am glad we can work through this...and I promise to learn from my mistakes and offer more constructive comments. I just hope that others on this forum can offer the same thing instead of "great shot" or "I like it" or "I dont like it"...we need to say why we feel either way.

I look forward to offering critiques on your future posts as well as get your thoughts on mine.

As people are shaking their hands in agreement, I want to announce that I give everyone full permission to use any level of "flippancy" in their comments to my images. I am not going to be overly politically correct in my opinion to other images, and I expect exactly the same to my images.
If an image looks like taken by a 4 yrs old with a camera, I am going to say that loud. And if my own image looks like taken by a child, I want to hear that too. Easy.
And I hope that this level of constructive honesty will become a standard on this forum.

"If an image looks like taken by a 4 yrs old with a camera, I am going to say that loud."

Cezar, there is nothing constructive in "flippant" comments like that. They are nothing more than egocentric b*llsh*t written by self-centered, thoughtless people who think they know more than they actually do. They only convey the author's disdain and contempt for another's work while establishing their own quality of character. There is absolutely nothing in the way of constructive critique there.

If that's the kind of "constructive honesty" you're looking for, fine. For anyone who wants to learn and grow, there are other mechanisms than PNWNP.

David, nothing is more frustrating than when you post an image you are proud of, and nobody is giving a rat's ass about it. Flippant comments are at least a form of contact, they mean that someone cares. That someone actually took his/her time to look at the photo and express an opinion.

Before we lynch Rick, I'd like to mention that he and I have done many long and weekend photo trips together and he is one of the nicest guys I've ever met. Everyone makes mistakes and I'm sure wishes he hadn't made those comments.

Personally, I take every comment I receive, good or bad, with large grains of salt.

Again I would like to thank everyone for your comments and points of view. To be honest in retrospect, I'm a little sorry that I entered the original post at all. I did not know Rick, as mentioned, only his work. I probably should have thought that everyone has a bad day on occasion and we all have said or put in writing at sometime in our lives, something unkind and regretful.
In defense of Rick, he has already posted a positive reply as well as communicating with me. I have changed my original thoughts and now know he was having a "rushed" day, trying to comment on several postings and just didn't give a lot of thought when he posted his comment.

Several members are in disagreement on whats an acceptable critique or comment and what is not. I have to agree that while it's impossible to restrict comments to being "constructive," we as "image posters" (myself included) need to recognize critiques to be taken with the grain of salt and move on.
I think we have beat this dead horse into the ground enough, unless you care to add more, I thank all of you!
Craig

I gave my brother a little scolding for his comment. He has had alot going on as of late and he was just a few days out from having his tonsils out (pretty painful for being forty) and his daughter moving back east. That said, being tactful is important when posting a critique. I don't think you would tell someone their ugly on a first date and not want to go out with them again because of that. There are other way's of getting the message across. Just my two cents worth.

My reply was to Cezar's comment, not Rick's. I stand by my statement, though I see that Cezar didn't get it.

I know Rick. He is a nice guy and he's apologized to Craig. Craig suggested we move on, so I will.

Flippant comments are at least a form of contact, they mean that someone cares.

Couldn't possibly disagree more. David is right on. The difference between a thoughtful, constructive criticism and a flippant critical comment is... laziness and/or flamboyance. It's not even better than silence. Silence is at least a constructive form of non-comment, and tells me that I haven't inspired anyone to comment.

No one should be cast out for the occasional poor delivery; we all have our little "moments". But to encourage flippancy as an acceptable means of normal commentary is ridiculous. It's toxic to the sense of community, and, imo, that seems to be very lacking here at times.

Cezar - my suggestion for getting more thoughtful input on an image is to specifically solicit comments when you post an image. Talk about your creative process, what gave you trouble, what you think an image's strengths and weaknesses are. You can facilitate a dialogue by doing more than simply popping the picture up there and waiting to see who comes by. That's actually true for all of us....

You could argue that you shouldn't have to solicit comments - NPN is, primarily, a critique-oriented site - but particularly within the regional forums, there's often more of a social focus than image-critique focus. There was a similar discussion at RMNP along this lines, so you're not alone in your angst. But you can either complain about it and settle for lazy, flippant comments, or you can try raise the level of discourse by doing more to encourage thoughtful critique.

As a closing post (I hope) I still fallback to the NPN posting guidelines a link to which can be found at the top of the page. These guidelines cover the intricacies of constructive criticism quite well. I ask that we all take the time to read these guidelines and take them to heart.

Ok after checking I see the posting guidelines are "below" the posting box at the bottom of the page. So please read and heed!

I typed this up on my iPhone so screen real estate is at a minimum...