Posted by Jim Salge on February 23, 2009 at 10:32 AM
So, a few weeks ago, in response to someone asking how to turn photography into money, someone mentioned "if you like to teach, teach!" Well, that resonated well with me, as I'm not really into stock nor have I persued fine art, and truthfully I haven't made any real money off my photography, but I've long dreamt of leading workshops.
I know I have the knowledge and personality to do this, and my knowledge of the regional landscape I'd be leading in is very comprehensive, but have no idea how to set up the background business. I'm really interested in knowing from those who lead them how they cover insurance, wavers, whether they have to be licenced guides? Where do I go to get started?
I'd also happily entertain advise as to setting up a business itself (tax id's, LLC's, etc's).
Lastly I would love to know how successful people who run them find them to be.
Really at the drawing board here, no information too basic.
Thanks in advance!
Posted by Dan Borzynski on February 23, 2009 at 11:26 AM
I don't do tours or workshops, primarily because I don't want to get involved with everything that goes on, so take this for what it might be worth.
There is a lot that goes into these behind the scenes.
You absolutely HAVE to carry liability insurance. There is way too much crap that can happen which you will have no control over and be sued for. Also, access to a lot of locations as a tour will require documentation of insurance.
Wavers and liability limits, and the legal issues - you will need to consult with a lawyer. There is no way around this. We can give you advice and let you know what we have encountered, but we are not lawyers. There are also state to state differences.
Licensing requirements are another reason why you need to talk to a lawyer.
Getting into the National Parks system as a tour requires a permit. In a good year, you need a minimum of 6 months lead time and about a dozen phone calls. You will also need liability insurance for this.
State park requirements change from park to park and state to state. You'll need to contact them.
You really should also talk to a CPA or other certified business advisor as to the best way to structure the business. At a minimum, I'd look at the LLC route to at least partially shield yourself. As a sole proprietorship, you are completely and solely liable for anything that happens.
I'd also look into any small business programs in your area, especially for those relating to starting a business. That might actually be the best first step and save the trips to the lawyers and CPAs until you get things rolling.
Go to Border's or Barnes and Noble and just start picking up books on small businesses, even if it means a 2-3 hours to the nearest one to do so. If you do this right, your head will be swimming with questions you never knew to ask.
Handling of pricing? Advertising? Can you get location permissions not normally accessible? Payment? Difficulty and/or intensity of the tour? Will it be a workshop or a tour? What will you do if the weather is absolutely horrible? What will the focus of the event be? Are you a people person? Do you enjoy teaching (I see that is a yes, so I am directing this to other readers)? Do you have enough knowledge and flexibility so that if Plan A doesn't work, you can seamlessly go to Plan B without your clients realizing it?
Have you attended other workshops? What do you like or dislike about them? What would you do differently? Also, talk to as many tour participants (photographic friends and maybe hitting camera clubs) as you can to get their thoughts.
Last, in terms of advertising and appealing to the general public (and PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS SARCASTICALLY), but why would someone want to attend a tour run by you? *I've* seen your work and your replies here, so I know I probably would be getting a good event, but I am not going to be your usual customer. What will differentiate your skills, knowledge and locations from that of other companies you will be competing against?
There is nothing wrong with trying to do this, but I wouldn't be looking at a 3 month time frame to pull this off. Start with a good business plan, which given all that is involved, may take three months to write in the first place. Decide what is needed to pull this plan off and go from there.
Great response Dan! I'm sure Jim and others would have a good head start with your ideas!
Jim, I'd like to encourage you to pursue this as I think you'd make a really good workshop/tour guide!!
Posted by Nathan Lovas on February 23, 2009 at 12:02 PM
I don't know if they have SCORE workshops in your area, but they are a great resource for basic business guidance. Here is a link to their homepage: http://www.score.org/index.html.
A really good way to stick in your toe to "test the waters" is offering a workshop through your nearest community college or extension ed program. They will force you to develop a course description, identify qualification requirements for participants (i.e., identify your target market), figure out how you're going to measure success, provide facilities and insurance, and help with the advertising and promotion. On top of all that, you'll get paid whether or not lots of folks respond. Talk about a pure, clean setup for testing the idea and getting important experience in lots of areas before stepping out on your own. And if you decide to go it alone in the future, all the leg work, prep work, market testing and visibility is done. You'll be way ahead of the game, while also garnering the opportunity to "test your chops."
Posted by Mike Spivey on February 23, 2009 at 1:16 PM
An even easier way to do it would be to offer a free workshop to a local camera club.
Do you have a specific type of workshop in mind? Since you are on this board, I assume it would not be a workshop in strobe photography with models.
I'm going to a Tim Ernst workshop in Arkansas this weekend. Tim goes to several workshops a year to learn from other pros. Have you attended other's workshops?
Posted by Steve Foss on February 23, 2009 at 1:29 PM
Hank beat me to it. I've done a couple workshops through the local community college, but was already set up and attracting photo excursion clients before they approached me. For all the reasons already mentioned, it's a great way to get started. And you'll immediately be developing a list of contacts and a growing number of people who will pass on info about how great it is to work with you. That last bit is the greatest advertising there is.
And great advice from everyone so far, I should add. Liability insurance at the least. I pay about $500 for combined gear/liability insurance, so it's not an outlandish amount of money. What (if any) permits you need will depend on where you are taking your workshop groups. Check with the state DNR and US Forest Service where you are if you'll be conducting workshops on state or federal lands.
Also, if you get them up and running and can make connections with camera clubs (they are burgeoning everywhere in the digital age and are a great source of clients), you can really get the word spread. In a couple different cases I've guided singles or couples who traveled here from large cities for the excursion and are part of large camera clubs, and those small excursions have resulted in later bookings with 8-10 members of the camera club. In both cases, the initial clients are members of camera clubs formed through the workplace, and one of those clubs has 150 members because the corporation employs 5,000. And when you start getting that many people out and about and all working together and with you, it's just that many more to continue to pass the word.
While my excursions specialize in lots of one-on-one attention and teaching/learning and are all out in the field, for larger groups I cap my rate at the 3-person rate, and the participants can split that between them equally. They get less personal attention but when you divvy the rate among 8-10, it's a lot more affordable, and the members all know each other because they're part of the same club.
Jim, you've said you aren't making much money with your nature photography, but the high quality of your work is a vital underpinning to your attractiveness as a workshop teacher. People who may hire you will peruse your Web site and look at a lot more than just your workshop info. They'll see excellent photography, and that will reassure them that yes, in fact, I want this guy to teach me to get photos as wonderful as his. That's one reason only to put excellent work on the Web site. Secondly, locations can be very important. Living on the edge of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, location sells my excursions as much as my abilities do, and you've been doing it long enough that I'm sure you've developed some excellent locations. If you put rewarding locations together with solid, low-key and fun teaching/learning, and an emphasis on feeding the spirit through this work, you'll have a great recipe for success.
While I do target subjects, I don't offer typical workshops like you often see, such as "Photographing Utah's Stunning Desert Landscape" or some such. I will focus on subjects based on time of year, however, with and early July being great times for the lady's-slippers and other orchids in the boreal forest, and of course fall color is another example. On a typical excursion, we tend to mix and match and cover a lot of ground in vehicles and on foot, doing landscape work at morning and evening and floral and wildlife work at other times of the day, but it is very flexible depending on the number of clients and their needs for specific images or to learn certain techniques. Most of my clients are somewhere in the range past beginner but short of expert, so teaching photography and how best to operate in these locations is a big part of things. I suspect the same might be true of the client base you'd attract.
For those who enjoy teaching in a small-group or one-on-one environment, which really is the best environment there is, offering this type of service is a great way to feel fulfilled, to pass on knowledge and learn more yourself (I've never been on an excursion that I didn't learn something. My philosophy is that, since I'm going to be out there loving my time in the woods anyway, and I really enjoy working with others, why not combine the two?
So, some food for thought. Best of luck, Jim!
Posted by Bart Heirweg on February 24, 2009 at 5:16 AM
Posted by Jim Salge on February 25, 2009 at 6:58 PM
Thanks all, and esp Steve, Dan and Hank! A lot to think about, but on par with the amount of work and prep I expected. I'll give myself some time to plan these if I proceed.
Best...and any more thoughts along the way appreciated!
Even if you don't plan to use them, check in with the nearest college or extension ed program about what it takes to set up and offer a new class. It will be an invaluable road map for structuring your own, and they will probably bring up details you never considered.
Posted by Steve Foss on February 25, 2009 at 9:50 PM
Jim, if you have the perseverance to read carefully through our wordy posts, you easily have enough chutzpah to start workshops.
Discussion
11 repliesI know I have the knowledge and personality to do this, and my knowledge of the regional landscape I'd be leading in is very comprehensive, but have no idea how to set up the background business. I'm really interested in knowing from those who lead them how they cover insurance, wavers, whether they have to be licenced guides? Where do I go to get started?
I'd also happily entertain advise as to setting up a business itself (tax id's, LLC's, etc's).
Lastly I would love to know how successful people who run them find them to be.
Really at the drawing board here, no information too basic.
Thanks in advance!
There is a lot that goes into these behind the scenes.
You absolutely HAVE to carry liability insurance. There is way too much crap that can happen which you will have no control over and be sued for. Also, access to a lot of locations as a tour will require documentation of insurance.
Wavers and liability limits, and the legal issues - you will need to consult with a lawyer. There is no way around this. We can give you advice and let you know what we have encountered, but we are not lawyers. There are also state to state differences.
Licensing requirements are another reason why you need to talk to a lawyer.
Getting into the National Parks system as a tour requires a permit. In a good year, you need a minimum of 6 months lead time and about a dozen phone calls. You will also need liability insurance for this.
State park requirements change from park to park and state to state. You'll need to contact them.
You really should also talk to a CPA or other certified business advisor as to the best way to structure the business. At a minimum, I'd look at the LLC route to at least partially shield yourself. As a sole proprietorship, you are completely and solely liable for anything that happens.
I'd also look into any small business programs in your area, especially for those relating to starting a business. That might actually be the best first step and save the trips to the lawyers and CPAs until you get things rolling.
Go to Border's or Barnes and Noble and just start picking up books on small businesses, even if it means a 2-3 hours to the nearest one to do so. If you do this right, your head will be swimming with questions you never knew to ask.
Handling of pricing? Advertising? Can you get location permissions not normally accessible? Payment? Difficulty and/or intensity of the tour? Will it be a workshop or a tour? What will you do if the weather is absolutely horrible? What will the focus of the event be? Are you a people person? Do you enjoy teaching (I see that is a yes, so I am directing this to other readers)? Do you have enough knowledge and flexibility so that if Plan A doesn't work, you can seamlessly go to Plan B without your clients realizing it?
Have you attended other workshops? What do you like or dislike about them? What would you do differently? Also, talk to as many tour participants (photographic friends and maybe hitting camera clubs) as you can to get their thoughts.
Last, in terms of advertising and appealing to the general public (and PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS SARCASTICALLY), but why would someone want to attend a tour run by you? *I've* seen your work and your replies here, so I know I probably would be getting a good event, but I am not going to be your usual customer. What will differentiate your skills, knowledge and locations from that of other companies you will be competing against?
There is nothing wrong with trying to do this, but I wouldn't be looking at a 3 month time frame to pull this off. Start with a good business plan, which given all that is involved, may take three months to write in the first place. Decide what is needed to pull this plan off and go from there.
Jim, I'd like to encourage you to pursue this as I think you'd make a really good workshop/tour guide!!
Do you have a specific type of workshop in mind? Since you are on this board, I assume it would not be a workshop in strobe photography with models.
I'm going to a Tim Ernst workshop in Arkansas this weekend. Tim goes to several workshops a year to learn from other pros. Have you attended other's workshops?
And great advice from everyone so far, I should add. Liability insurance at the least. I pay about $500 for combined gear/liability insurance, so it's not an outlandish amount of money. What (if any) permits you need will depend on where you are taking your workshop groups. Check with the state DNR and US Forest Service where you are if you'll be conducting workshops on state or federal lands.
Also, if you get them up and running and can make connections with camera clubs (they are burgeoning everywhere in the digital age and are a great source of clients), you can really get the word spread. In a couple different cases I've guided singles or couples who traveled here from large cities for the excursion and are part of large camera clubs, and those small excursions have resulted in later bookings with 8-10 members of the camera club. In both cases, the initial clients are members of camera clubs formed through the workplace, and one of those clubs has 150 members because the corporation employs 5,000. And when you start getting that many people out and about and all working together and with you, it's just that many more to continue to pass the word.
While my excursions specialize in lots of one-on-one attention and teaching/learning and are all out in the field, for larger groups I cap my rate at the 3-person rate, and the participants can split that between them equally. They get less personal attention but when you divvy the rate among 8-10, it's a lot more affordable, and the members all know each other because they're part of the same club.
Jim, you've said you aren't making much money with your nature photography, but the high quality of your work is a vital underpinning to your attractiveness as a workshop teacher. People who may hire you will peruse your Web site and look at a lot more than just your workshop info. They'll see excellent photography, and that will reassure them that yes, in fact, I want this guy to teach me to get photos as wonderful as his. That's one reason only to put excellent work on the Web site. Secondly, locations can be very important. Living on the edge of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, location sells my excursions as much as my abilities do, and you've been doing it long enough that I'm sure you've developed some excellent locations. If you put rewarding locations together with solid, low-key and fun teaching/learning, and an emphasis on feeding the spirit through this work, you'll have a great recipe for success.
While I do target subjects, I don't offer typical workshops like you often see, such as "Photographing Utah's Stunning Desert Landscape" or some such. I will focus on subjects based on time of year, however, with and early July being great times for the lady's-slippers and other orchids in the boreal forest, and of course fall color is another example. On a typical excursion, we tend to mix and match and cover a lot of ground in vehicles and on foot, doing landscape work at morning and evening and floral and wildlife work at other times of the day, but it is very flexible depending on the number of clients and their needs for specific images or to learn certain techniques. Most of my clients are somewhere in the range past beginner but short of expert, so teaching photography and how best to operate in these locations is a big part of things. I suspect the same might be true of the client base you'd attract.
For those who enjoy teaching in a small-group or one-on-one environment, which really is the best environment there is, offering this type of service is a great way to feel fulfilled, to pass on knowledge and learn more yourself (I've never been on an excursion that I didn't learn something. My philosophy is that, since I'm going to be out there loving my time in the woods anyway, and I really enjoy working with others, why not combine the two?
So, some food for thought. Best of luck, Jim!
Best...and any more thoughts along the way appreciated!
Best of luck whichever way you decide.