Native Ultimate with "propel" for photography?

I'm looking at getting a kayak/canoe for photography on some local lakes and ponds. I think that these hybrids might be the way to go.

What do you all use and what do you think of Native Kayaks?

Thanks!

I use a duckboat since I also duck hunt. It's essentially a wide kayak. I'm looking at buying a lightweight Predator kayak. I like kayaks because they are so maneuverable, fast, and sit low in the water. I've had excellent luck with my Carstens Puddler but am thinking about getting something a little sleeker and lighter too. I keep my camera gear in watertight bags while paddling. I'm not doing much paddling right now of course. There's still about 14 inches of ice on the lakes, and all rivers are froze over too. This one is looking very good. It's 11 ft long so it will maneuver and hide very well, it's camo, it's stable, and I can haul a fair amount of camera gear in it. These kinds of boats are easy to just jam into the weeds along the edge of the water & then cover yourself with duck hunter camo material. You instantly "disappear". Not even late season ducks can spot me, and their lives depend on that.
ttp://www.tp-kayaks.com/_kayaks/_oldtownkayak/predatork111.html
http://www.tp-kayaks.com/_kayaks/_oldtownkayak/predatork138.html
http://www.tp-kayaks.com/_kayaks/_oldtownkayak/predatork140.html

For photography, the smaller boats are generally better because they are easier to hide and so light you can easily lift them on top of your car if you don't have a pickup truck to haul it in. I've built a frame for a blind using PVC tubing, and then drape camo material over the frame. This works well.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0021457229467a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&No=18&Ntk=Products&QueryText=blind+material&sort=all&_D%3AhasJS=+&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form23&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1


Kent in SD


Kent in SD

I have two of the Native kayak/canoes (it is hard to say which they really are), a 12' solo and a 14' tandem/convertable. The hull shape makes them very stable. They claim you can stand up in them safely. I haven't tried it but have talked with some who have and vouched for it. I shot both "Fragrant Waterlily, St. Regis River" and "Cardinal Flower, Osgood River" in my portfolio from my solo Native Watercraft. It is a very good photography boat.

Jim Bullard

Hmm. The Tegris 12 in olive color looks pretty good. Upsides are it looks maneuverable, is light weight, holds a lot of stuff, and probably resists moderate waves pretty well. Downsides are it sticks up out of the water more (higher profile.) That makes it a little harder to hide and also provides more surface area for wind to hit and blow me around (big factor here!) I'm also not sure if it is "sink proof." What I mean by that is with kayaks the bulk heads are filled with waterproof foam so that even if the boat is swamped by a large wave, the foam will provide floatation and keep the whole boat from going to the bottom. I'm not sure the Tegris has that feature, and it's nice to have! If it does have positive flotation, this might be a good boat for me to haul my lighting gear out to photo bridges etc. Mainly, because it has a lot more cargo space than the Predator kayak I've been looking at.

http://www.nativewatercraft.com/ult_12_tegris.cfm

I just took a look at the "top view" on the website, and it looks like it does have positive floation. The hull is designed with a big air space in it. It's basically a long pointy inner tube. I'm still thinking a Predator type kayak might be better over all because of lower profile, but the Tegris looks pretty good too.

I forgot to comment on the "Propel" feature. If that is the little foot operated paddle system under the boat, I looked at that a couple of years ago. Yes, it works, but it limits how shallow the water you can float in is. For duck hunting (and photography on same lakes) the water is very shallow. My current duck boat can float in as little as 4 inches of water. That's important for me. For me, the Propel would not work at all. It would also take up valuable cargo space needed to haul duck decoys or camera gear.


Kent in SD

Interesting that you ask now as this week I paid for layaway on a Native Tegris Ultimate and plan to pick the boat up in a couple of weeks (It's a 3+ hour drive away). I was in the market for a kayak at my new lake cabin anyway and after a lot of internet research and looking at local alternatives, I'm pretty sure this will be a good decision for on the water avian photography and also for waterfowl hunting in the fall. The ultra-light weight, durability, shallow draft and reported stability are what sold me although it is quite expensive and definitely more of a canoe/kayak hybrid than a true kayak. The good news is the boat I'm buying is significantly discounted due to "cosmetic blemishes" incurred during shipping. Once I've had a chance to put it through its paces I'll try to remember to post something, but as Kent noted, it'll be some time before I can even put it in the water with a foot of ice on local ponds and lakes.

Keith (also) in SD

I believe there is a small amount of foam in the ends of my Ultimate model. The "tunnel hull" shape repeats on the inside of the boat with the center of the floor higher than the sides. There is no flotation built into those bumps you see in a a cross section. If you are really concerned you can strap in a couple of air bags front and rear. What I do is keep my gear in a pelican case that is only open when I'm actually taking the camera out or putting it back which I only do when the boat is still. The seat in the Native Watercraft BTW is very comfortable even for several hours at a time. One reason I bought the Ultimate was because my old Coleman canoe had too much freeboard when I was paddling alone and was too hard to control in wind. The Native Ultimate has a much lower profile and you sit lower than in a traditional canoe so wind is less of a problem. You can buy removable top sections to mimic the deck on a regular kayak, fabric that fastens to a plastic cleat that runs along the side, but they are pretty expensive IMO so I passed on them. I may try making some of my own.

Jim Bullard

Jim--

Consider using Tyvec as the fabric. It's cheap, waterproof, and can be spraypainted in camo colors. It's relatively easy to work with. I definitely want a boat that has positive flotation. Keeping in mind I sometimes go out in some very, very nasty winter blizzard conditions chasing the last of the ducks just before freeze up, having positive flotation has twice saved my life when I got into 4 ft. waves coming at me sideways. One of those once completey buried my boat and for a moment only my upper chest & arms were sticking up out of the water. Boat bobbed back up like a cork and I was able to make it the rest of the way to shore.

Keith--
Let's get together when the ice is off the river. We can paddle upstream from 26th & Cliff and see how the boats are working. It's fairly easy paddling through there and there's actually a lot of wildlife too. I can usually get as far as the bike path bridge before having to turn back. It's a nice little trip.


Kent in SD

Hrmm, never really thought of how high up the Natives are compared to other Kayaks. Were I'm at in Black Mountain, NC there isn't really a ton of stuff on the nearby lakes to bury myself in (like reeds and such) as to not be noticeable. I wonder if there is another way go unnoticed on a lake??

Anyhow, the Kayak idea is a good one I think. I was also going to get a pelican case for my camera.

Can someone fill me in or post a photo of where you carry your camera gear on a kayak such as the Old Town Predator?? The main reason why I wasn't going to get a kayak like that was due to the fact that I didn't see where you could carry your gear.

I'd figure that a Pelican case the size one would need for a camera and long lens would be huge for a little kayak like that to hold anywhere.

Kyle--

In my current kayak-like duck boat, I can carry two dozen magnum sized duck decoys plus two robo-duck spinners with no problem. It all fits in the space between my legs, or just behind where I sit. Here's the boat I currently use. As you see, it is designed for a very large cargo space. Attach a frame made of PVC tubing and twist-tie camo material over that and you have a pretty spacious floating blind too! Notice this thing is 38 inches wide. That makes it VERY roomy and stable, but a little harder to paddle against a stiff current:
http://ducklogic.com/cont/prd/_clb/pud.html

There's a bigger one. Note it has holes (tunnels actually) that goes through the front and rear deck. You can get a couple of lenths of 2 inch PVC pipe, run them through the holes and down into the mud, and esstentially nail yourself to the lake bottom to stop the boat from drifting back & forth. Duckboats are very well thought out and this company has years of experience. Prices are very reasonable on these, too. Duckboats are actually a little closer to what photographers need than are sport type kayaks.
http://ducklogic.com/cont/prd/_clb/pin.html

Note just how low a profile these things have. They are called "sneak boats." They are DEADLY on even the wariest ducks! I sometimes use mine to lay out on bare mudflats, with a camo cover over the top of me. I lie on my stomach and take photos while peaking out from underneath. When you're in the water, only about 10 inches stick up above the surface. These boats have positive flotation and are very stable. I've been using an older version of the 10 ft. puddler. It 's a very small and capable boat, and I have a lot of confidence in it. I do know its limits though. (Take it out during a raging blizzard on a big lake and you will be terrified!)

Here's a shot I took last October. I put about $4,000 worth of camera gear/lighting equipment (a good sized pile of stuff!) in my little boat and paddled downstream on the Minnesota River. I set up my lights, anchored boat in the stream, and got a shot no one else has ever done. Then, in the dark, I took down my lights, paddled back upstream using a 3D Maglite as a headlamp, and safely got back to my truck. I know the boat well and have this kind of confidence in it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/2967057980_9784e6ae80_o.jpg


Kent in SD

Kent,
Thanks for the info! I'm torn though, as I don't have a ton of places with a lot of cover for ducks around my area. There is one local lake, Beaver lake, that I can access for some duck photos but the lake is small and I can walk the entire edge of it, I don't know if a boat is needed as I could just set up a blind on the shore of the lake somewhere?? What do you think?

Also, Lake Tomahawk, is close and harbors many ducks. Again...I can walk the entire edge and there are a ton of people that walk this small lake. The ducks aren't very wary of humans and the ones that are sit out in the center of the lake.

The other lakes that are close to my home are TVA lakes, they have dams and are super deep so ducks don't use them too much. I see the occasional GBH, Osprey, things to that nature. But I'd have to travel a lot of water to find exactly where the birds are. When I go there now I'm usually fishing and just take out the camera when something flys by me. I haven't seen a concentration of birds in any area on the lakes thus far but I can' say that I've really been looking for it either.

I'm just confused on how effective a kayak will be for me under these conditions or if I should just innvest that money elsewhere....where it could be more utilized.

I'm going to do more research on this for sure, I'd just hate to buy a boat and it not aid me in what I'm wanting to accomplish.

Kyle--

I keep talking about ducks mainly because I'm a duck hunter. I have very different water here than you probably do. Eastern South Dakota has thousands of glacial lakes, large and small. Everybody thinks there's a lot of birds in FL, but there's a ton more here. At least in summer. I have rivers small (Sioux River, one mile from my house) to big (Missouri River, two hours away) and all kinds of lakes. In spring I photo great blue huron nests, commorant rookeries, and can even position my boat a little ways off shore and photo mammals that come to get a drink. In winter there's usually open water on the Missouri River where eagles come by the dozens to fish. In spring the big lakes begin to open up and attract snowgeese by the hundreds of thousands. (Do need to know what you are doing if fooling around on frigid water.)

Here's what I'll suggest for you. You need to think through what your needs are very carefully. It's starting to sound like you might have enough water near you that you might have some fun. Do you have any swamps to the south, or slow lazy rivers that wind through woods? You might well be ahead to buy a very small boat, one that is lightweight so you can easily put it on your car top, compact, and not much money. Boats are usually pretty easy to sell if you decide you don't want it. Here's what I'm going to toss out, an Old Towne Otter, in green/black swirl. It's 9 & half feet long, reasonably stable, 30-some pounds, will have enough room between your legs to stow your lens, and it's CHEAP! Good, but cheap. Old Town is a big-name name brand.
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/recreation/otter.html

Reading more closely about what water you have, if the ponds are small, you probably don't need a boat. A blind would work. A boat is great if you have places to float it. Do the TVA lakes have lots of little coves etc. to explore? That's where a small boat would work well. Since you don't have a really clear plan yet, I would advise against buying an expensive boat. What you might do is RENT a kayak for a weekend and poke around a TVA lake and see what you think. A lake with a barren mud shore won't be much fun unless there's lots of shore birds to entertain you. A "crinkled" shore line of a wooded TVA lake might have possibilities though, as might a slow moving river or large creek that goes through a swamp or forest. Where I live, the water possibilities are tremendous and I have a decent little boat. If I lived near Lake Superior I'd have an even bigger and better one! So it all depends on what you have to work with.


Kent in SD

Kent,
I'm thinking that for the smaller lakes here it's not a necessity to have a boat. The larger lakes are...Lake James, Fontana, Jocassee, Hickory, Nantahala, etc. For these guys we're talking a TON of water. It's just that most of the shoreline drops of relatively quick due to them being dammed up valleys more or less. These lakes are anywhere from 45 mins away to a 2 hours drive.

I'm sure there is a ton of activity at the lakes since I see Green Herons, Cormorants, Osprey, I've even seen nesting Bald Eagles at Lake James.

I think that the real question at hand is if a small kayak will work for me as I may need to cover a ton of water to search out these critters. I'm all up for paddling, I'm young and vibrant, but what distance is too far before you'd get something with a motor mount.

Now I already have a small 5hp engine that will mount to a small boat if that makes a difference in what I should purchase.

I'm sure that I'd put a boat to use, it's just that the distance I may have to travel could be longer than usual depending on the lake. I'd like to have a boat that I can carry around and such for the smaller lakes, but I'd also like one for the larger ones?? I think that I may need two boats in the long run?

Oh, and as far as carrying the boat. I've got a Toyota Tacoma with a camper shell. I could carry it in the bed or get a Yakima/Thule rack and carry it on the roof so transporting the boat isn't an issue.

This is what Lake Jocassee looks like.

http://www.pbase.com/waterfallrich/lake_jocassee&page=all

And here is Lake Fontana

http://frank.mtsu.edu/~yelverto/fontana.html

Another thing for me to consider is that I'm an avid fisherman. So I could get a boat to serve dual purposes. I'd fish mostly on the slow rivers that are around here such as the French Broad River.

The narrower the boat, the easier it is to paddle. The wider the boat, the more stable it is. Just like in photo equipment, there's always trade offs. I have paddled my little boat a total of 5 miles, but rather than paddling all over the place I try to work smarter than that. I pick out a cove or other small area that seems to be a hot spot, and look into it in detail. I don't see the point of going miles & miles, unless I'm drifting with the current and have a vehicle prepositioned. Remember, with a 35 pound boat you can simply carry it to where you want to put in. I'll mention something else here. On the big TVA lakes, I'm assuming they have people in big power boats zooming all over. That's not a good thing for someone in a low profile camo colored boat. I have a few of those lakes near me, and I tend to stick fairly close to shore. Nothing out in the middle of a big lake anyway.

I'm still thinking the $300 Otter will do most of what you want, but there's also the Pintail I gave a link to above. You could mount a small motor to it. Problem with a motor is they are loud and make the boat heavy. Definitely would want a medium sized boat to keep things stable. Both Old Town and Native have some more expensive boats that are rigged up for fishing and also come in camo, such as the Old Town Predator. If you want to spend more like $800 to $1,000 you could look at a 14 ft. boat that has a skeg. A skeg is like a fixed rudder that helps the boat to track straighter in the water, a nice feature for lakes. My boat does not have a skeg and I do OK. I don't have one because I typically like to get into water that is less than a foot deep. That's usually where the action is for birds and critters.


Kent in SD

Kyle,

This is in answer to your question of where to carry a camera if you use a “regular” kayak. Looks like you are interested in the same uses as me for a boat -- fishing, photography, and some fairly long trips. Here’s how (next paragraph) I do just what you are asking, with a common, inexpensive kayak. I do a lot of fishing, camping, and cover many miles with my kayak, so I use a light touring kayak. Most of these are about 14 to 16 feet long. They paddle easier and track better than shorter (and wider)boats, so you can cover a lot of water with very little effort (no need for a motor). Of course, many shorter “recreational” kayaks are more maneuverable and easier to hide, etc. The smaller kockpit of kayaks that are mostly enclosed does limit how much gear you can keep within reach, but I do manage to keep my fishing gear and camera handy whenever I am on the water. Here's how:

The key is that I keep my camera, with two lenses including a 100-400 mm. zoom in dry bag that I carry between my knees. In a kayak, you brace your knees outward against the sides of the craft so you can use your body to help control it. This leaves a large space between your legs to carry gear. The dry bag I use is not the typical narrow tube, but one with a very large opening, allowing quick access to all the contents. It’s a Seattle Sports Latitude Stuff Sack (Medium size, 18" long). You can see it at the Seattle Sports Website.

I think you can use this method in one of the shorter “recreational kayaks, too, but they are not as useful for longer flatwater trips. Besides being comfortable and easy to paddle, longer kayaks hold enough gear in two dry bulkheads for a 4-day camping trip. It’s a good compromise for all-day paddling, unlike shorter kayaks that don’t track as well. Unlike an open-top boat, most of my gear (except for fishing tackle and the camera) is sealed up, but I find myself using it more than my canoe or my motor boat because it paddles easier (especially in the wind) and it’s more stable than my canoe; and I can take it more places than the motor boat. There is no such thing as an all-purpose boat, so you either need to find a compromise for the kind of paddling you do, or get multiple boats.

I was just looking over some kayak websites to zero in on what Kyle needs, and came up with a very similar boat to what Wayne is describing. The discussion has gone in two different directions. Boats that are good for hiding in or to hunt ducks or photo in marshes etc. are short & wide (32+ inches.) This makes them very compact and stable. My Carstens Puddler and the Old Town Predator are good examples. They are sort of like a Jeep in that they turn in tight quarters and hold a fair amount of cargo.
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/huntingFishing/dirigo_120_angler.html
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/huntingFishing/predator_k111.html

For longer distance and paddling on bigger lakes (or upstream,) a narrower boat (28 inch beam width) with a skeg start coming into their own. They cut through the water like a knife. They are slightly less stable against rolling, but if you aren't shooting a 12 gauge shotgun the difference probably won't be noticed much. Especially with a skeg they track straighter, making less effort to keep it going where you want. These class of kayak will have sealed bulkheads to put gear in, but I would still use a drybag like Wayne was talking about. (In fact, I do keep camera gear in one of those now. I wrap my lighting gear in heavy duty garbage bags if in the boat.)

So, you've come to a fork in the road. If your strategy is to haul the boat to a cove or other small arm of a lake or use on slow current rivers, and want a boat to hide in the cattails, the Old Town Otter, Carstens Puddler or Pintail, will work well. If you want a boat that can handle longer stretches of water with less effort and still come in under a thousand dollars, here's some good choices:

http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/huntingFishing/vapor_12xt_angler.html
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/huntingFishing/predator_k140.html
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/huntingFishing/dirigo_140_angler.html

What these have in common is they are 12-14 ft. long, about 28 inches wide, have built-in places to hold fishing rods/store gear, come in green or brown color, and are under $1,000. If a skeg is available, I'd get one.


Kent in SD

Dozens of companies make all kinds of kayaks, canoes and hybrids. Best thing to do is visit a local kayak shop, see what they have, and try them out. When I was shopping, I decided on a light touring or “day touring” kayak very similar to the Old Town Cayuga 146] (since you are looking at that Web site, but lots of companies make practically the same boat) because they paddle better and hold twice as much camping gear. (Stability was not an issue because all kayaks of this type are more stable than most canoes.) Kayaks made to sell to anglers are a bit more sluggish, and the gadgets for fishing are easy to add to any kayak. I mounted two of my favorite rod holder on my kayak, for instance. (They are more adjustable than most of the built-in ones, too, so I can troll with them, or swing my rods in line with the hull for paddling through tight cover.) If you don’t paddle long distances or carry a lot of camping gear, fishing kayaks are handy as long as the built in stuff is just what you want. If you are fussier about your fishing tackle, or if you really want to paddle for days without wearing yourself out, get a kayak make for more serious paddling, and add your own accessories for fishing.

One more thing -- insuring my camera gear gives me peace of mind on the water.

Kyle,

On the other hand... KAYAKS VS. OPEN-TOP BOATS

You are obviously interested in kayaks, but I wonder if you are more interested in a convenient way to get around on the water. It just occurred to me that you are not already a kayaker, so you really need to try one out before making a decision. (Shops on the water are a REALLY good idea.) I think an important thing to think about is the fact that kayaking is part paddling and part wading. Getting in and out can be awkward, especially when carrying your gear. Kayaks are more of a problem in this respect because there is only one place to sit, and you can’t walk up to the bow to get out, or vice versa. In wild situations, it’s nearly impossible to enter or exit the boat without stepping in the water. (You’ll figure out ways around this by “docking” in places with big rocks or fallen trees on the shore, but that’s not always possible.) That’s partly the reason why so many kayakers don’t go ashore often during the day, and why many of us carry a “pee bottle.” Unless it’s hot out, I wear rain pants or a spray skirt to cover the cockpit opening because some water usually gets in, and you are basically sitting on the floor. In cold weather, I sometimes use my Wiggy’s Waders to keep dry, too. (http://wiggys.com/category.cfm?Category=3 )

I love kayaking, so I put up with that inconvenience instead of using my canoe or motorboat. I can paddle many miles for days with very little effort, and I can go places and travel in weather that would be impossible for even a canoe. But kayaks are not for everyone. If you have a problem with stepping in the water and sometimes getting wet, maybe you should be thinking about a boat with an open top, that allows you to walk the length of the boat to get in and out.

Getting wet or in the water isn't an issue Wayne. I'm a trout fisherman as well...I wade in the rivers around here fishing for Browns, Brooks, and Rainbows on the coldest of April mornings with no waders on. The water doesn't bother me a bit!

Anyhow, I really do appreciate all the help from you guys thus far. No, I'm not a kayaker at all. I'm sure that I'd go out numerous times without my camera before I struck out with it just so I'd feel comfortable. I rented a Hobie SOT kayak while at Huntington Beach, SC and LOVED it! I know they are more stable then a traditional kayak but that was the first time I'd ever been in a kayak of any kind and it only took me a second to get the hang of it.

On the large vs. small kayak...I'm still torn and think that a medium sized boat might fit the bill a little better for me. I just don't know how far I'll have to go on these larger lakes is the thing...I know there are small coves here and there that are inaccessible by a motorboat BUT i've never been up in them as I am always in a motor boat. I can tell you that they are like 20 mins from the loading ramp in some cases. Now there may be a road near the shoreline somewhere that would allow me to put in closer but I doubt it as many of these lakes border national forests and state parks.

Sit-on-top kayaks vs. traditional?? Now there is a question. I loved that hobie that took me and my girlfriend all around Murrells Inlet at Huntington Beach, but where would I put my camera? I wonder if there is one with a bulkhead large enough to stow my Canon with 100-400 mounted??

Most of these questions I feel I can answer at Diamond Brand Outdoors. They have a ton of boats there. They also have a demo day when they take all of their boats to a local lake and let you take them out for a test drive. I missed this last year, but I need to find out when it is going to be this year and plan on attending. A day to test out all of their kayaks and canoes will surely set me in a direction. I may even leave with a boat that day, who knows.

Diamond Brand carries Native, Mad River, Hobie, Perception, Wilderness Systems, and I think that's it for their boats. It leads for a large array to test out though.

I may go down there tomorrow since I'm off work and check out what's going on with that demo day and bring my camera to see if it'll fit into any of those bulkheads on the sit-on-tops.

One more thing...where to I go to insure my gear?

I never liked sit-on-tops. The paddling position is difficult to get right and I just never felt comfortable with them. I use boats for a different purpose though. The sit-ons would not haul decoys very well, and since they have no sides on them any medium wave could come across and threaten to wash any gear not tied down right off. With the boat I have, I can remove the seat and lie down in it. This protects me from cold winds and is also excellent concealment. I've used sit-ons twice, including a 2-day excursion around Hawaii. I didnt like the way they handled, didn't like the exposed position, and didn't find any that was comfortable to paddle. I can see where they are handy if you snorkel though, since it's essentially a big floating sheet of plywood. They also definitely have positive flotation. I've not seen any in "subdued" colors, and it would be my last choice to paddle more than half a mile.


Kent in SD

I hear you Kent....I've never been in a sit-in kayak. It's the only thing I have to base an opinion off of. I was not 100% comfy though that's for sure. I would not buy that kayak I rented...but it took me to some cool places in Murrells Inlet.