Posted by Toni Lankerd on March 6, 2009 at 4:56 PM
For those of you who don't carry insurance on your photographic gear, I highly recommend you do so. There are several sources through which you can get insurance, one of them being a rider on your homeowners/rental insurance policy. Personally, I'm glad I had the foresight to get that insurance. A few years ago, the camera hit the sharp corner of a table and broke the LCD screen. Thanks to my insurance, the repair was completely covered...all $360 of it. Earlier this week, while getting out of a vehicle, my camera slipped from my hands smack onto pavement. You guessed it...it will be a major repair. Yes, I'll be without my best camera for 6 weeks but the major factor is that I won't have to pay a penny for the repairs or replacement, if necessary!
Having your gear covered is worth it!
On another note....I've noticed that more and more members are critiquing the images posted here (I'm guilty as well!). While it's great to see all the postings and more participation on these boards, I'd like to remind everyone that this forum is more for sharing ideas, discussions and yes, images...rather than critique. For those wanting serious critiques, I suggest posting your image(s) in one of the 9 NPN galleries. If you don't feel comfortable posting in the primary NPN galleries, then you should specifically ask for comment and critique with your post here. If no C&C is requested with an image posting, don't give one. If it is asked for, a gentle, thoughtful and thorough critique can be given. If you decide to post in one of the NPN galleries and you need more feedback, let us know here in the discussion forum that you posted an image in a gallery. I'm sure some of us will be happy to take a look and leave a comment/critique.
And last, but certainly not least....The Tulip Festival in Holland, MI is being held the first full week of May. Tim Marks and I have already discussed the possibility of getting together in Holland the weekend before...depending on the weather and Tulip cooperation. If anyone else is interested, please let me know and I'll give as much info as I can.
Thanks for reading my random ( or is that rambling?) thoughts!
Toni
I was just talking to another MWNP member the other day regarding the nature of the comments on this forum. We both concluded that there should be more meaningful critiques and that there are far to many "nice shot" comments. With all due respect, where does it state that this is sharing forum? That's a new one to me. I'm not trying to be snide, I'm genuinely curious. I would argue that MWNP is already an extremely friendly place to post images. I don't ever recall seeing an case where the critiques weren't respectfully given with good and honest intentions. Furthermore, both the Pacific Northwest and Rocky Mountain NP forums critique images. Why should MWNP be different? Will members benefit more from simply getting a pat on the back? Hmmm.
As you can tell, I don't agree with the direction pointed out - I'd like to hear others thoughts on this issue. I realize that people post for different reasons. Thanks for hearing me out.
Toni, I am in agreement with Joel on this one........sorry. I too frequent looking at the other regional forums and they also post and critique photos. I personally am getting to where I'd rather post to the Regional forum as on the broader NPN site.................why? I think the views to critique ratio are more in check. To me, the other picture posting forums there are to large and many times I get the feeling that if you are not one of the frequent posters there, you get alot of views but very few critiques. I'd like to say that I feel like I get more valuable critiques here than there. Also, the current trend on posts here has increased tremendously. I think that if we cannot post photos on here for critiques, you will see the participation on MWNP go down, and probably pretty quickly - not because people get upset from not being able to post their photos for critiques, but more so from us geographically being scattered than some of the other forums. Hope that makes any sense to anyone reading this!
My thoughts are, if you want a critique, post an image on one of the NPN galleries designed for critiques or post an image here and specifically ask for C&C. Making this a forgone critique environment would be an exercise in redundancy, so why do it?
There are many, many photographers who simply like to share their work for the fun of it and who aren't interesting in C&C. In fact, quite a goodly number of people who love photography don't have the confidence to post images in C&C galleries. Creating a C&C-assumed environment on a regional board not only would be redundant (since I said that once already, this statement is itself a redundancy), but will end up preventing some of those people from posting images at all, and in my opinion that would be a shame.
I moderate another forum that's dedicated to the outdoors, and I mod the photography and photo sharing board there. Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying a board for photographers on an outdoors Web site is an exact parallel to a regional board on a site specifically for photographers, but I and a couple others worked long and hard on that web site to eliminate the sense of competition so often brought in a C&C environment and to establish a welcoming, warm, supportive atmosphere. For people who ask for critiques, we give careful and thoughtful perspective. For those who don't ask for them, we simply give support. It's worked very well, and participation on that board has skyrocketed over the last couple years.
Toni has not suggested that no one post photos in here for C&C, she's simply suggested that people be supportive, positive and encouraging with images posted that do not request C&C, and that gentle, thoughtful, thorough C&C be given when people ask for it. So if they ask for it, give it nicely. If they don't ask for it, be their friend, not their art critic. Sometimes all a person really wants is an "attaboy!" It should be their choice whether C&C is given, not ours.
That seems to me a great way to run a board like this. I don't come in here looking for C&C because NPN already offers a full venue for that elsewhere. I come looking for fellowship, shared experience and camaraderie, and I very much enjoy looking at each person's expression/interpretation of their geographic locations, and of their lives, regardless whether I think the photo is excellent or, one might say, not so excellent, in my own opinion. In other words, I just like looking at all your pictures, and when I post one of my own here, I hope you all like looking, too.
That being said, I fully understand the great value of C&C. For photographers who sincerely enjoy the art of giving C&C (and it's as much an art as photography itself), there certainly will continue to be those here who ask for it, so you'll have opportunities. And, as always, if you want to express yourself in that arena more often, there are quite a few NPN galleries that would love your participation. They were specifically set up for C&C, and every photograph posted there is begging for your opinion.
Those are my thoughts.
Good discussion! Nothing's set in stone until the fat chisel sings.
First, sorry to hear about your camera Toni! I recently damaged mine trying to clean the sensor cover. While the scratch doesn't interfere with the image, the dust and lint that has accumulated in the last 2 years (and won't go away!) certainly does. In fact I took some great photos tonight of a nearby waterfall and now have to see if I can somehow get rid of the lint and dust. When I can afford it, I will need to look into options to get it cleaned/repaired.
Regarding the other thoughts, its actually good timing to read the ideas of the C&C vs. having a place to just share images. There have been a few images over the last month I thought of sharing, but haven't posted because I'm not interested in having them critiqued. I'm one of those folks who is more interested in sharing photos just to share and rarely look for critiques. That being said, I have posted here on MWNP specifically asking for feedback and that feedback has been invaluable. I ended up copying and pasting those ideas to a word document, printing them, and taking them out with me the next time I headed out to photograph a waterfall. So, I really like the idea of having the regional forum as a place to ask for feedback on images, but also as a place to just share some neat photos of cool places. I know I was hesitating renewing my membership because I was feeling like posting photos at NPN was just about critiquing them. So thanks for the reminder that its not just about that.
I would definitely agree with Toni about insuring your equipment. A year ago December I dropped my camera in a stream after getting a little too excited about the ice formations and turning the wrong knob. When I lifted the tripod the camera fell into the water. You do have to be aware that making multiple small claims can result in increased insurance rates. You should check with your agent.
The second issue has been a recent topic of some of the other forums. I was one of those folks that joined NPN because it was a place I could display my photos and get some constructive feedback so I could improve my photography. If I just wanted to display my photographs there are lots of other places that I could do that. I also learn a lot from the critiques of other folk’s photographs. I always think my photographs are great but someone pointed out that my birds weren’t sharp. It turned out my new lens wasn’t working correctly. Others pointed out that my photos weren’t straight. They were right. I’ve tried to correct that problem. Several folks pointed out a problem with the white point in a recent photo. I thought it was a great photo but it was even better when I fixed a problem I didn’t know I had. If no one would have said anything I wouldn’t have been aware of the problem and would go on my oblivious way.
It is helpful if someone does provide a critique that they provide some clear suggestions for improvement. When I started out I was just learning how to use the camera and what might be obvious to a seasoned photographer might not be so obvious to someone just starting out. Others of us might not have a good understanding of Photoshop so those who do have the expertise need to clearly point out possible solutions to the perceived problem.
Posted by Ken Bachofer on March 7, 2009 at 10:47 AM
This forum does provide a means for "sharing" ideas, announcements, technical discussions, etc., and that is a good thing. Maybe we need more of that.
But when it comes to posting photographs, I agree with Joel and Phil. I think C&C should be expected - make that meaningful C&C. To me this forum is about improving as a nature photographer. Reading C&C for all photos helps me and is the reason I take time to read the posts. Unlike the NPN forums, which I think are sometimes elitist, the MWNP is a friendly community where I can be comfortable participating.
Actually it isn't clear to me what a "shared" photo would be like. If it doesn't show someone's attemp to make a good image, why post it? I would much prefer that MWNP focus on being a group of good photographers getting better - which requires feedback.
Posted by Brian Vance on March 7, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Toni, sorry to hear about the camera situation, but a good heads up on the insurance.
As for the c & c, I agree with Joel, Mitch, Phil and Ken, but also understand where Eric and Steve are coming from. For me personally, I wouldn't bother to join NPN if there were no critiques, because sharing to me, means "please give me your honest take on my image." It is a great way to get feedback and also to learn from other people's images and the critique offered on them.
It seems that we should incorporate some sort of standard tag line when posting, like "I welcome all c&c," or "I wanted to share this image with the forum" so everyone can have a heads up and comment accordingly.
I also disagree about the redundancy issue. In the galleries, there are folks from many geographic regions who are commenting, but who may not know the Midwest, its locations, light, temperment, etc. It is also more of an intimate place to share and get feedback with people you know and people who know you and your work better than in the galleries. It has a different feel and I'm more comfortable posting here for c&c than I am in the galleries (especially as a new member posting first images).
Just my two cents, but a good topic to discuss. Thanks for bringing the issue up for conversation, Toni.
Insurance - how much are you paying? It sounds like you've got a sweet deal with a very low deductible. And, who's your carrier?
Critiques - I mostly post here, with the expectation that I'll receive critiques. Sometimes, I'm just posting a photo for fun and don't expect it to be well received. Other times, I putting up something that I feel is high quality, and those are the times that I like to hear/read the critique, as I can't always see the forest for the trees. Also, while I could post on other forums more often, I don't, in part because I have a sense of the personalities on this forum, their value, etc. I feel that I get honest feedback from folks here and value it...
Tim!
Posted by wally emmert on March 7, 2009 at 4:51 PM
Toni, I too post photos here just for the critiqueing , i started all this about a year ago and mwnp has been my greatest source of information. It is actually from all of you that i have learned anything about photography...Anyway thats my 1 1/2 cents worth
Those are some interesting perspectives, and several points were raised that I hadn't considered. Thanks for that!
Perhaps I didn't state my position clearly enough, or perhaps I was so wordy that folks lost patience and didn't read it all (sorry if that's the case). I fully agree that MWNP can be a great place to get critiques. My point is it can be requested, not assumed. That way the people who want to just share pics to have fun can still do that, while the people who want to give and receive critiques can do their thing, too, when the poster specifically asks for C&C or has a signature that welcomes C&C. Best of both worlds, was what I was thinking.
And of course, you guessed it, I'm one of those who usually just would post a pic in here for fun. Here's why. Unless I have a technical question I would like answered, I see little value in having other photographers critique my work. It's well known that photographers don't look at pictures the way regular folks do, and since I take pictures for regular folks or to please myself, I'm generally uninterested in what other photographers think of my work. Anyway, that's just my perspective so you know where I'm coming from.
One final point I'd make is that by allowing the poster to select whether he/she wants C&C, we honor personal choice, and that places the emphasis on respect, flexibility and empowerment.
Again, great discussion. I'll shut up now and listen some more.
I usually post for the same reason that I take a photo, I take it so I can share what I have seen with others. I have ganed a lot of information from the forum and hardly ever look at the galleries unless someone refers to something on them. I have learned a lot from the C+C on what I have posted as well as other posts. I feel that what I have taken from MWNP has improved my photography. I appreciate the time anyone spends looking at and evaluating my posts and sometimes I even try to improve them after recieving opinions on how to do it. I am still trying to improve my photography and have less time to spend on my PP skills. I am happy with a "nice shot" or "needs cropping" IE. So tell me what you think or what you like even if it is enough with the eagles already. I enjoy looking at images of places and things I will probably never see in person, even if they are shots I would never think of or take myself. Opinions on what is good and or better is what makes photography a subjective craft. We need not all be the same to be good. And yes insurance is wonderful stuff even if we never need it.
Posted by Bruce Palla on March 7, 2009 at 11:34 PM
I'm sorry about your camera,Toni. Good advice on insurance.
When I post a photo,(Yellow bellied sap sucker from the other day for example), one of the few times I posted in Avian also, I received a "warmer" critique here. I believe our kind midwestern personalities are evidenced in our replies. Our willingness to share our views with others is almost expected here, even if it is just an "attaboy". I'm intrigued by all this chatter, and the fact that we're all home with a computer on a Saturday night.
I'm a loser, what's your excuse?! LOL
Posted by Toni Lankerd on March 8, 2009 at 5:42 PM
Good points and good discussion, everyone!
I intentionally waited with replying to see what the viewpoints were from others, and I can see that although they vary somewhat, most of you would prefer to basically leave things as they are. The intention with my original posting wasn't to stop everyone from posting images here, but to more or less get you all to at least consider posting in the NPN galleries.
We'll leave the forum as is with one slight change. When you post an image, if you want C&C, please say so. If you don't specifically ask for C&C, we'll assume that you are sharing the image and don't want it critiqued. Hopefully everyone will agree that this is the best way to do it?
And thanks for the "condolences" regarding my camera. As fas as I know..it isn't dead yet, although I'd love to get a replacement because it would be the new K20D!
Tim...my renter's insurance is through Auto Owners (through a local independent agent), and costs me less than $100 a year for the camera on a rider to the policy. Last time, I paid the store for the repairs and had a check for the full amount from Auto Owners 3 days later. Hopefully they won't raise my rates after this!
Bruce...what can I say...I was home too!
Posted by Ken Bachofer on March 8, 2009 at 8:03 PM
About insurance - I have my equipment on a homeowner's rider. The cost for $12,000 of equipment is $160/yr for full coverage - replacement cost, no deductible. I wouldn't think of taking my cameras and lenses, especially the 500/4, into the field without protection.
Ken and anyone, you might inquire of your insurance company if they'll honor a claim if you have made any money off photography. Many insurance companies are happy to write a rider to homeowners insurance to cover a hefty amount of amateur photography gear, but if you have made a single dollar off photography and you file a claim, they'll deny the claim.
If you bring in no money for your photography, it's not an issue. If you do, it's something worth checking on.
It's also worth checking on the circumstances under which the policy will and will not pay out. Many have been burned because they have a rider but also take in money from photography, as well as misunderstanding under exactly which circumstances their gear was or was not covered.
We'll leave the forum as is with one slight change. When you post an image, if you want C&C, please say so. If you don't specifically ask for C&C, we'll assume that you are sharing the image and don't want it critiqued. Hopefully everyone will agree that this is the best way to do it?
Agree? Not so much; but I won't beat a dead horse. Other members have already stated most of my concerns. Admittedly, it does strike me as a bit disingenuous to state that the forum will be left as-is, only to then restate the original proposal as the new rule. I know the intentions are good, despite my disagreement with the means of achieving the goal. Well, enough whining from me.
Interesting discussion - I guess I never really thought about whether this forum is a critique, sharing, or combination forum so I don't have a preconceived notion of what the "rule" is. Nor am I aware of any location where it is specifically spelled out. So perhaps that would help - a location that is prominent that outlines what the expectations are, given that this discussion will eventually disappear down the page. In addition, I think if the intent is to encourage folks to post in other forums then perhaps specific encouragement along those lines with more detail about the thinking would be clearer.... I think folks do consider posting in the larger forums, but don't always prefer that option....see below!
I strongly feel that this forum is complimentary to the larger critique forums for 2 reasons (which may be redundant to other posts, but....)
1 - folks here know the "terrain" and locations and appreciate the style of photography possible, which is not always the case with those commenting in the broader forums, especially for landscapes. Both forums are useful, in my opinion, and not having the MW specific commentary would be unfortunate.
2 - the smaller group allows for more meaningful conversation and discussion with folks who are more familiar with your work. This comment builds on #1.
Having said that, I think it's great if folks want to share without soliciting input or opinions and I'm happy to see those images too.
CJ
Posted by Toni Lankerd on March 9, 2009 at 1:10 PM
Thanks, CJ. I'll edit the posting guidelines to suggest C&C be asked for if a member specifically wants critique.
That being said, I totally agree with you regarding the smaller community, others' comments relating to being familiar with the Midwest area in general and allowing for more meaningful conversation than the galleries.
Posted by Ken Bachofer on March 9, 2009 at 4:54 PM
I started visiting MWNP because reviewing the many C&C made me a better photographer. I started posting here because I received constructive feedback from people I had grown to trust and whose capabilities I knew.
So, I don't look favorably on a movement away from what I see as the cornerstone of MWNP: seeking photographic excellence. From now on my MWNP topic lines will end with "C&C requested." If others do the same I'll know which posts to read.
Posted by Toni Lankerd on March 9, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Ken...I'm not suggesting any major changes. The C&C will still be there, for those who want it..some people simply do not want their images critiqued...they are mainly posting images to share with others, and I respect their choice, just as I respect those who want critiques.
The Midwest forum, like NPN itself, is always seeking photographic excellence..that in itself is not changing. The only change is adding a simple line within your description saying whether or not you want C&C.
Discussion
20 repliesHaving your gear covered is worth it!
On another note....I've noticed that more and more members are critiquing the images posted here (I'm guilty as well!). While it's great to see all the postings and more participation on these boards, I'd like to remind everyone that this forum is more for sharing ideas, discussions and yes, images...rather than critique. For those wanting serious critiques, I suggest posting your image(s) in one of the 9 NPN galleries. If you don't feel comfortable posting in the primary NPN galleries, then you should specifically ask for comment and critique with your post here. If no C&C is requested with an image posting, don't give one. If it is asked for, a gentle, thoughtful and thorough critique can be given. If you decide to post in one of the NPN galleries and you need more feedback, let us know here in the discussion forum that you posted an image in a gallery. I'm sure some of us will be happy to take a look and leave a comment/critique.
And last, but certainly not least....The Tulip Festival in Holland, MI is being held the first full week of May. Tim Marks and I have already discussed the possibility of getting together in Holland the weekend before...depending on the weather and Tulip cooperation. If anyone else is interested, please let me know and I'll give as much info as I can.
Thanks for reading my random ( or is that rambling?) thoughts!
Toni
I was just talking to another MWNP member the other day regarding the nature of the comments on this forum. We both concluded that there should be more meaningful critiques and that there are far to many "nice shot" comments. With all due respect, where does it state that this is sharing forum? That's a new one to me. I'm not trying to be snide, I'm genuinely curious. I would argue that MWNP is already an extremely friendly place to post images. I don't ever recall seeing an case where the critiques weren't respectfully given with good and honest intentions. Furthermore, both the Pacific Northwest and Rocky Mountain NP forums critique images. Why should MWNP be different? Will members benefit more from simply getting a pat on the back? Hmmm.
As you can tell, I don't agree with the direction pointed out - I'd like to hear others thoughts on this issue. I realize that people post for different reasons. Thanks for hearing me out.
There are many, many photographers who simply like to share their work for the fun of it and who aren't interesting in C&C. In fact, quite a goodly number of people who love photography don't have the confidence to post images in C&C galleries. Creating a C&C-assumed environment on a regional board not only would be redundant (since I said that once already, this statement is itself a redundancy), but will end up preventing some of those people from posting images at all, and in my opinion that would be a shame.
I moderate another forum that's dedicated to the outdoors, and I mod the photography and photo sharing board there. Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying a board for photographers on an outdoors Web site is an exact parallel to a regional board on a site specifically for photographers, but I and a couple others worked long and hard on that web site to eliminate the sense of competition so often brought in a C&C environment and to establish a welcoming, warm, supportive atmosphere. For people who ask for critiques, we give careful and thoughtful perspective. For those who don't ask for them, we simply give support. It's worked very well, and participation on that board has skyrocketed over the last couple years.
Toni has not suggested that no one post photos in here for C&C, she's simply suggested that people be supportive, positive and encouraging with images posted that do not request C&C, and that gentle, thoughtful, thorough C&C be given when people ask for it. So if they ask for it, give it nicely. If they don't ask for it, be their friend, not their art critic. Sometimes all a person really wants is an "attaboy!" It should be their choice whether C&C is given, not ours.
That seems to me a great way to run a board like this. I don't come in here looking for C&C because NPN already offers a full venue for that elsewhere. I come looking for fellowship, shared experience and camaraderie, and I very much enjoy looking at each person's expression/interpretation of their geographic locations, and of their lives, regardless whether I think the photo is excellent or, one might say, not so excellent, in my own opinion. In other words, I just like looking at all your pictures, and when I post one of my own here, I hope you all like looking, too.
That being said, I fully understand the great value of C&C. For photographers who sincerely enjoy the art of giving C&C (and it's as much an art as photography itself), there certainly will continue to be those here who ask for it, so you'll have opportunities. And, as always, if you want to express yourself in that arena more often, there are quite a few NPN galleries that would love your participation. They were specifically set up for C&C, and every photograph posted there is begging for your opinion.
Those are my thoughts.
Good discussion! Nothing's set in stone until the fat chisel sings.
Regarding the other thoughts, its actually good timing to read the ideas of the C&C vs. having a place to just share images. There have been a few images over the last month I thought of sharing, but haven't posted because I'm not interested in having them critiqued. I'm one of those folks who is more interested in sharing photos just to share and rarely look for critiques. That being said, I have posted here on MWNP specifically asking for feedback and that feedback has been invaluable. I ended up copying and pasting those ideas to a word document, printing them, and taking them out with me the next time I headed out to photograph a waterfall. So, I really like the idea of having the regional forum as a place to ask for feedback on images, but also as a place to just share some neat photos of cool places. I know I was hesitating renewing my membership because I was feeling like posting photos at NPN was just about critiquing them. So thanks for the reminder that its not just about that.
The second issue has been a recent topic of some of the other forums. I was one of those folks that joined NPN because it was a place I could display my photos and get some constructive feedback so I could improve my photography. If I just wanted to display my photographs there are lots of other places that I could do that. I also learn a lot from the critiques of other folk’s photographs. I always think my photographs are great but someone pointed out that my birds weren’t sharp. It turned out my new lens wasn’t working correctly. Others pointed out that my photos weren’t straight. They were right. I’ve tried to correct that problem. Several folks pointed out a problem with the white point in a recent photo. I thought it was a great photo but it was even better when I fixed a problem I didn’t know I had. If no one would have said anything I wouldn’t have been aware of the problem and would go on my oblivious way.
It is helpful if someone does provide a critique that they provide some clear suggestions for improvement. When I started out I was just learning how to use the camera and what might be obvious to a seasoned photographer might not be so obvious to someone just starting out. Others of us might not have a good understanding of Photoshop so those who do have the expertise need to clearly point out possible solutions to the perceived problem.
Phil Schwarz
E2311 530th Ave
Menomonie, WI 54751
e-mail: schwarzp@uwstout.edu
web: http://philipschwarz.zenfolio.com/
But when it comes to posting photographs, I agree with Joel and Phil. I think C&C should be expected - make that meaningful C&C. To me this forum is about improving as a nature photographer. Reading C&C for all photos helps me and is the reason I take time to read the posts. Unlike the NPN forums, which I think are sometimes elitist, the MWNP is a friendly community where I can be comfortable participating.
Actually it isn't clear to me what a "shared" photo would be like. If it doesn't show someone's attemp to make a good image, why post it? I would much prefer that MWNP focus on being a group of good photographers getting better - which requires feedback.
As for the c & c, I agree with Joel, Mitch, Phil and Ken, but also understand where Eric and Steve are coming from. For me personally, I wouldn't bother to join NPN if there were no critiques, because sharing to me, means "please give me your honest take on my image." It is a great way to get feedback and also to learn from other people's images and the critique offered on them.
It seems that we should incorporate some sort of standard tag line when posting, like "I welcome all c&c," or "I wanted to share this image with the forum" so everyone can have a heads up and comment accordingly.
I also disagree about the redundancy issue. In the galleries, there are folks from many geographic regions who are commenting, but who may not know the Midwest, its locations, light, temperment, etc. It is also more of an intimate place to share and get feedback with people you know and people who know you and your work better than in the galleries. It has a different feel and I'm more comfortable posting here for c&c than I am in the galleries (especially as a new member posting first images).
Just my two cents, but a good topic to discuss. Thanks for bringing the issue up for conversation, Toni.
Insurance - how much are you paying? It sounds like you've got a sweet deal with a very low deductible. And, who's your carrier?
Critiques - I mostly post here, with the expectation that I'll receive critiques. Sometimes, I'm just posting a photo for fun and don't expect it to be well received. Other times, I putting up something that I feel is high quality, and those are the times that I like to hear/read the critique, as I can't always see the forest for the trees. Also, while I could post on other forums more often, I don't, in part because I have a sense of the personalities on this forum, their value, etc. I feel that I get honest feedback from folks here and value it...
Tim!
Perhaps I didn't state my position clearly enough, or perhaps I was so wordy that folks lost patience and didn't read it all (sorry if that's the case). I fully agree that MWNP can be a great place to get critiques. My point is it can be requested, not assumed. That way the people who want to just share pics to have fun can still do that, while the people who want to give and receive critiques can do their thing, too, when the poster specifically asks for C&C or has a signature that welcomes C&C. Best of both worlds, was what I was thinking.
And of course, you guessed it, I'm one of those who usually just would post a pic in here for fun. Here's why. Unless I have a technical question I would like answered, I see little value in having other photographers critique my work. It's well known that photographers don't look at pictures the way regular folks do, and since I take pictures for regular folks or to please myself, I'm generally uninterested in what other photographers think of my work. Anyway, that's just my perspective so you know where I'm coming from.
One final point I'd make is that by allowing the poster to select whether he/she wants C&C, we honor personal choice, and that places the emphasis on respect, flexibility and empowerment.
Again, great discussion. I'll shut up now and listen some more.
When I post a photo,(Yellow bellied sap sucker from the other day for example), one of the few times I posted in Avian also, I received a "warmer" critique here. I believe our kind midwestern personalities are evidenced in our replies. Our willingness to share our views with others is almost expected here, even if it is just an "attaboy". I'm intrigued by all this chatter, and the fact that we're all home with a computer on a Saturday night.
I'm a loser, what's your excuse?! LOL
I intentionally waited with replying to see what the viewpoints were from others, and I can see that although they vary somewhat, most of you would prefer to basically leave things as they are. The intention with my original posting wasn't to stop everyone from posting images here, but to more or less get you all to at least consider posting in the NPN galleries.
We'll leave the forum as is with one slight change. When you post an image, if you want C&C, please say so. If you don't specifically ask for C&C, we'll assume that you are sharing the image and don't want it critiqued. Hopefully everyone will agree that this is the best way to do it?
And thanks for the "condolences" regarding my camera. As fas as I know..it isn't dead yet, although I'd love to get a replacement because it would be the new K20D!
Tim...my renter's insurance is through Auto Owners (through a local independent agent), and costs me less than $100 a year for the camera on a rider to the policy. Last time, I paid the store for the repairs and had a check for the full amount from Auto Owners 3 days later. Hopefully they won't raise my rates after this!
Bruce...what can I say...I was home too!
If you bring in no money for your photography, it's not an issue. If you do, it's something worth checking on.
It's also worth checking on the circumstances under which the policy will and will not pay out. Many have been burned because they have a rider but also take in money from photography, as well as misunderstanding under exactly which circumstances their gear was or was not covered.
Agree? Not so much; but I won't beat a dead horse. Other members have already stated most of my concerns. Admittedly, it does strike me as a bit disingenuous to state that the forum will be left as-is, only to then restate the original proposal as the new rule. I know the intentions are good, despite my disagreement with the means of achieving the goal. Well, enough whining from me.
So it goes.
I strongly feel that this forum is complimentary to the larger critique forums for 2 reasons (which may be redundant to other posts, but....)
1 - folks here know the "terrain" and locations and appreciate the style of photography possible, which is not always the case with those commenting in the broader forums, especially for landscapes. Both forums are useful, in my opinion, and not having the MW specific commentary would be unfortunate.
2 - the smaller group allows for more meaningful conversation and discussion with folks who are more familiar with your work. This comment builds on #1.
Having said that, I think it's great if folks want to share without soliciting input or opinions and I'm happy to see those images too.
CJ
That being said, I totally agree with you regarding the smaller community, others' comments relating to being familiar with the Midwest area in general and allowing for more meaningful conversation than the galleries.
So, I don't look favorably on a movement away from what I see as the cornerstone of MWNP: seeking photographic excellence. From now on my MWNP topic lines will end with "C&C requested." If others do the same I'll know which posts to read.
The Midwest forum, like NPN itself, is always seeking photographic excellence..that in itself is not changing. The only change is adding a simple line within your description saying whether or not you want C&C.