Posted by Phillip Noll on March 8, 2009 at 11:49 PM
OK. I think I'm actually going insane!
I was working on a raw file in Lightroom. Got it just how I wanted it and then began editing it in Photoshop (CS3). My goal was to make a jpg for posting on the web. So I tweaked it a bit more, resized it and used save for web. Everything went fine.
I then opened the jpg using the Mac file viewer. I also opened the exact same jpg in Lightroom and had the two applications side by side. The file displayed in LR looks faded! So I opened the file in Firefox and it looks like the one in the file viewer (nice and saturated). I then opened the file in Photoshop and it again looks faded (like it does in LR).(See above. Left is the file in LR/PS and right is the file in Finder/Firefox. In Finder/Firefox the file has more yellow and is more saturated.)
What is going on here? When I created the jpg I converted it to sRGB and saved for web. Why would a file display one way in PS/LR and another in Firefox/Preview/Finder??
Try not using the Save for Web feature.
When I opened this image in PS, it showed that it was tagged with 'Metlako_11-28-10_3' color space (???).
Posted by Phillip Noll on March 9, 2009 at 12:02 AM
When I opened this image in PS, it showed that it was tagged with 'Metlako_11-28-10_3' color space (???)
That's my monitor color space. This is a screen capture that I opened in Photoshop and when I saved it I did not use "Save For Web".
Interestingly, I had initially tried saving this screen capture using "Save For Web" and both the left and right halves looked the same! Does "Save For Web" do something to your files that "Save" does not?
Save for Web can strip off color profiles in order to save room.
I quit using Save for Web a few years ago, and have never had any color related problems (outside of non-color managed browser issues) since.
Give the regular Save feature a shot after you've converted to sRGB and see if it helps.
You're using 'Convert to Profile' rather than 'Assign Profile', right? Just checking....
Posted by Phillip Noll on March 9, 2009 at 12:22 AM
Tried an experiment. I created a nice new jpg (different image) and I saved it using "Save" and "Save For Web". In the Mac Preview app and in Finder, the two files look different! The "Save For Web" file is more yellow and saturated.
I opened both files in PS and they look identical (less yellow and less saturated).
So, I opened both files in Firefox and they look identical BUT, they are the yellow-saturated versions!
Now I'm really confused. Especially since both Firefox and PS are color-managed apps.
Posted by Phillip Noll on March 9, 2009 at 12:27 AM
When I open the two files in PS, the "Save For Web" one does not have an embedded profile so PS assigns sRGB to it. The "Save" file has sRGB already embedded. I guess this is why they look identical in PS.
I'm assuming they don't look identical in Finder or Preview because they are not color-managed apps?
Still not sure what is going on with Firefox though. And I'm too tired now to try to figure it out.
Oh, yes, I'm using "convert to Profile", not "assign".
I have a similar issue with my monitor. I think the issue is that your monitor's color space is not sRGB. Most monitors are pretty close to sRGB, so what you see in Photoshop will be close to what you see on your browser. But with monitors not close to sRGB, the images look different. For posting images on the web, the important thing is that the images look good on your monitor in Photoshop NOT how they look on your browser. Then *most* people viewing your images on *their* monitors will see images similar to what you see on your monitor in Photoshop. I tested this with an old monitor and found this to be true.
I think you have to turn on color management in FireFox. Did you do this? I forget how, but it's not the most straightforward thing to do. That may be why the one with the profile embedded may look the same as the one w/out. I don't bother embedding profiles, because most people viewing the images aren't going to have color managed browsers anyway. Also, with CS4 (which I don't have), I think you may now be able to embed profiles w/ Save for Web.
Finder or Preview on your computer must be color managed if the images appear differently. They just don't assign sRGB to an image if the image has no color profile embedded.
You can see how to switch on color management in Firefox here.
Posted by Phillip Noll on March 9, 2009 at 12:10 PM
I thought color management would be on by default in Firefox (or that they would at least give you a check box or something) but since it is not, and I have not enabled it, my Firefox is not color managed. This must be why the two look identical in Firefox.
Posted by Phillip Noll on March 9, 2009 at 12:34 PM
Ahh...a clear explanation: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24720
What I didn't realize is that non-ICC aware apps just send the RGB data directly to the monitor with no regard to monitor profile or embedded ICC profile. Photoshop/LR have it correct and I should ignore the apparent color shift created by "Save For Web". Its not a "real" color shift!
I think in the future I will avoid "Save For Web" and ensure my files are converted to, and tagged with, with sRGB so that ICC-aware apps know how to display them and non-ICC-aware apps will come close.
Fwiw, I use Save for Web all the time, and embed the sRGB profiles. (using CS2 right now). I have not had any problems. I don't know of any better way to get optimized file sizes while retaining good IQ.
Like Jack, I use Save for Web to sRGB always. But sometimes I do notice a shift in the color if giong from ProPhotoRGB to sRGB if I let Save for Web manage the conversion. Like John, I've found it helps to use ACE to do the conversion from ProPhoto to sRGB.
For now, its best to always save your files with the sRGB colorspace when you want to display them on the web since you can't know what browser the viewer will be using.
Without wishing to complicate this discussion further, lot of good comments above, I use CS3 and find that colors in Bridge are often not correct but Photoshop looks fine. It is more apparent on some images than others. If anyone understands this please help me out.
I also have seen problems with web browsers and I am sure they are not color calibrated in general.
Bill,
I use the Bridge and discovered that the thumbnail quality determines whether color profile settings are used. High quality thumbnails use color profile settings, while quick thumbnails do not. Use the Thumbnails preferences to determine thumbnail quality.
Discussion
13 repliesI was working on a raw file in Lightroom. Got it just how I wanted it and then began editing it in Photoshop (CS3). My goal was to make a jpg for posting on the web. So I tweaked it a bit more, resized it and used save for web. Everything went fine.
I then opened the jpg using the Mac file viewer. I also opened the exact same jpg in Lightroom and had the two applications side by side. The file displayed in LR looks faded! So I opened the file in Firefox and it looks like the one in the file viewer (nice and saturated). I then opened the file in Photoshop and it again looks faded (like it does in LR).(See above. Left is the file in LR/PS and right is the file in Finder/Firefox. In Finder/Firefox the file has more yellow and is more saturated.)
What is going on here? When I created the jpg I converted it to sRGB and saved for web. Why would a file display one way in PS/LR and another in Firefox/Preview/Finder??
When I opened this image in PS, it showed that it was tagged with 'Metlako_11-28-10_3' color space (???).
Interestingly, I had initially tried saving this screen capture using "Save For Web" and both the left and right halves looked the same! Does "Save For Web" do something to your files that "Save" does not?
I quit using Save for Web a few years ago, and have never had any color related problems (outside of non-color managed browser issues) since.
Give the regular Save feature a shot after you've converted to sRGB and see if it helps.
You're using 'Convert to Profile' rather than 'Assign Profile', right? Just checking....
I opened both files in PS and they look identical (less yellow and less saturated).
So, I opened both files in Firefox and they look identical BUT, they are the yellow-saturated versions!
Now I'm really confused. Especially since both Firefox and PS are color-managed apps.
I'm assuming they don't look identical in Finder or Preview because they are not color-managed apps?
Still not sure what is going on with Firefox though. And I'm too tired now to try to figure it out.
Oh, yes, I'm using "convert to Profile", not "assign".
I think you have to turn on color management in FireFox. Did you do this? I forget how, but it's not the most straightforward thing to do. That may be why the one with the profile embedded may look the same as the one w/out. I don't bother embedding profiles, because most people viewing the images aren't going to have color managed browsers anyway. Also, with CS4 (which I don't have), I think you may now be able to embed profiles w/ Save for Web.
Finder or Preview on your computer must be color managed if the images appear differently. They just don't assign sRGB to an image if the image has no color profile embedded.
What I didn't realize is that non-ICC aware apps just send the RGB data directly to the monitor with no regard to monitor profile or embedded ICC profile. Photoshop/LR have it correct and I should ignore the apparent color shift created by "Save For Web". Its not a "real" color shift!
I think in the future I will avoid "Save For Web" and ensure my files are converted to, and tagged with, with sRGB so that ICC-aware apps know how to display them and non-ICC-aware apps will come close.
For now, its best to always save your files with the sRGB colorspace when you want to display them on the web since you can't know what browser the viewer will be using.
I also have seen problems with web browsers and I am sure they are not color calibrated in general.
I use the Bridge and discovered that the thumbnail quality determines whether color profile settings are used. High quality thumbnails use color profile settings, while quick thumbnails do not. Use the Thumbnails preferences to determine thumbnail quality.