Posted by Jonathan Lent on March 13, 2009 at 4:04 PM
I'm not touching one more of my shots until I get a monitor. Everytime I pick up a print its nothing like I expected. I was on amazon, there is a HP LP2475W 24in LCD 1920x1200 and it is available with X-Rite Eye One Display2 for color calibration. $805 for both or $615 for the monitor. Does anyone know about these products and if it's a good buy. I don't really want to spend much more than $800. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Posted by Dan Borzynski on March 13, 2009 at 6:21 PM
Calibrating the monitor will go a long distance towards getting correct color. You absolutely need to get that right.
For just monitor calibration, you shouldn't have to be spending $800. Those packages might include print calibration as well - I just don't know.
Soooo, let's back up a step. What is your print workflow, and what printer(s) and paper(s) are you using? If you are using any version of Photoshop, the big version of Elements, what are your printer settings? What I would like you to do is to go to the printer dialog screens and check and report on your settings. I am especially interested in the following:
IN printer setup: media, printer color management off or on, print quality and the results of a clog check.
In Print with Preview, the color handling selection, printer profile (does it match the paper type) and renderng intent.
When you open the Windows printer settings, assuming that you are running Windows, do the setting match the above?
Let us know all of the settings. Hopefully one of them is wrong, you'll or we'll catch it, and suddenly things will improve.
One last question: How do the prints not match the monitor? This might a tough question to verbalize an answer to, but that would also help.
The reason I am requesting this is because if the above is not correct, buying all the calibration equipment in the world isn't going to solve the printing issues - just make them more expensive.
Posted by Jonathan Lent on March 13, 2009 at 6:50 PM
Dan thanks for the reply.
I'm working on a laptop with a glossy screen. The $800 is for a monitor and calibation software. About the prints, I get them done at a local lab. They do good work but my B&W's come out often to dark comparing to what was on my screen. I haven't printed alot, but I have adjusted colors & tones now assuming they won't look the same when I do print them. Hope all that made since. Most of this stuff I'm still learning and often become overwelmed. I'll get there, slowly but surely.
Posted by David Bostedo on March 13, 2009 at 7:02 PM
OK Jonathan - What type of prints do you get made (type of printer and paper, like Epson Inkjet on glossy paper, or Chromira Photo Printer with metallic paper, etc.)? Do you get ICC profiles for the paper and/or inks that your local lab uses? Do you soft-proof? And, to ask Dan's question again, how do the prints not match your monitor? Are they brighter, contrastier, darker, flatter, less saturated, less detailed, etc?
While I realize you might not have a great screen, do you calibrate it in any way? Some laptops aren't so bad if calibrated.
All that being said (and I'd definitely look into all of that before spending money)....the HP LP24XX models are reputed to be very good photo-work monitors for the money. And around $600 is the usual cost. (If you want to compare, My Simon is usually a pretty good site for price comparisons on electronics.)
Posted by Jonathan Lent on March 13, 2009 at 7:23 PM
David, I almost always choose matte paper. The lab does use Epson Inkjet.
What do you mean by soft-proof ?
B&W to dark. Colored prints more saturated.
And no I've never calibrated my screen. I know I need to but still want a better monitor.
Posted by David Bostedo on March 13, 2009 at 11:12 PM
In order to do a proper color conversion, your print shop likely uses ICC profiles (they should, anyway - I'm not sure if any printer doesn't). This file controls how colors are translated from those used to display on your screen, to those used by the printer. There are different files for each ink/paper/printer combination. And not just the type of each - the specific model. A profile would only be specified for something like : Epson 3800, K3 inks, and Hahnemuhle Photorag 308 paper. It's that specific. And it's really a fundamental part of color management.
Now, in Photoshop or other programs, you can soft-proof (create a print proof in software). This means that you have the computer read the ICC profile, and apply it to your image. Then the computer approximates what your image will look like in a print, and can show you things like shadows that get blocked, colors that are out of gamut, and other potential problems. Adjustments sometimes then need to be made to the image to improve the print (even if it makes it look worse on-screen - and of course you make the change to a copy of the image, not the master file).
It would probably help to read through some tutorials on color management. These are good really good and pretty straight forward :
As far as the problems you're seeing, dark prints of all types are common from uncalibrated monitors, because most LCD monitors are too bright by default. And the saturated colors could be any number of things. Hopefully with a little learning you can improve in the way you want to. Good luck!
Posted by Dan Borzynski on March 14, 2009 at 12:06 AM
I hope we are not scaring you! There is a lot to learn here and most of us have figured it out by trial and error, asking a lot of questions and wasting an unfortunate amount of paper .
You mentioned that you are having a third party lab do the printing for you. Depending on the lab, trying asking at the lab to see what your files look like on their screen. They are almost certainly working with a profiled system and this might give you a better idea as to where the problem lies. If the file looks dark there and matches the print, then we can go back to your system to work on a solution. If they are not working with a profiled system, RUN!
In any event, you definitely want to have a profiled monitor.
The HP display you are considering seems reasonable, especially if you get the bundled monitor calibration. This calibration tool is exclusively for the monitor, it does not include printer calibration, which would probably cost another $200-$300 at the low end.
Since the HP uses an S-IPS panel made by LG, you are likely to get bright, high-contrast images with full color control, exactly what you need for calibration.
Another thing you will need to determine is what does your lab require in terms of imbedded profile and color spaces - Adobe RGB, sRGB or can they work with wider gamut. For example, MyPhotoPipe recommends jpg files and either sRGB or Adobe RGB colorspace. They have downloadable printer profiles if you want to soft-proof your image, but you do not imbed these in the image files.
Lastly, when performing a soft proof, be careful to set the correct rendering intent, which has to do how out of gamut colors are represented. The majority of the time with color photographic images you'll find that perceptual rendering intent will provide good results.
Can't help you with black and white images, I don't normally do them. I have read that selecting a printing service that uses high quality pigmented ink and paper is very important. I've also read that if you are using an Epson printer QTR is a good software RIP (raster image processor) that yields excellent b&w results - and you can test it before you buy it. (http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRrequire.html)
As in the old darkroom technique, it was possible to select developer/paper combinations to produce specific results- some papers were very cold (tending towards blue, like Ilford), others were neutral, while others were decidedly warm and creamy (like Kodak Medalist, preferred for portraiture). Other papers, when used in combination with developer solutions gave exceptional results - I used to love using Kodak Dektol developer and plain old Kodabromide paper - this combination when used on a diffusion head enlarger was capable of quite an expanded gray scale at the dark end - tremendous rendition of dark and shadow areas - that was hard to duplicate with any other combination. There are other wet processing techniques that give you other desirable results - like platinum/palladium printing - a contact printing process that inherently provides the longest grayscale and greatest control over contrast of all the printing processes I am aware of.
I also suggest reading as many of the great online tutorials on converting color images to b&w in photoshop as possible. There are many subtle and not so subtle nuances that can affect the final image quality. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/photoshop/b-w.htm makes a good point in favor of using alternative methods for converting and enhancing an image to give you the control and quality typical of wet darkroom technique.
Jonathan, as an absolutely first, free, and ten-minute step, go to this website and see how your laptop monitor does, and then go to this website, to make sure. At the very least, you'll get a hint of a beginning to an answer about the lightness / darkness of your B+W images, in terms that you can use to describe what your monitor is and is not displaying.
We had an article in our newsletter a year or so ago that answers the whole question of how to get your prints to match your monitor. This gives most of the information you need to know in one article, and it's pretty easy to read: http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Printer_to_Match_my_Screen
Discussion
9 repliesThanks in advance
For just monitor calibration, you shouldn't have to be spending $800. Those packages might include print calibration as well - I just don't know.
Soooo, let's back up a step. What is your print workflow, and what printer(s) and paper(s) are you using? If you are using any version of Photoshop, the big version of Elements, what are your printer settings? What I would like you to do is to go to the printer dialog screens and check and report on your settings. I am especially interested in the following:
IN printer setup: media, printer color management off or on, print quality and the results of a clog check.
In Print with Preview, the color handling selection, printer profile (does it match the paper type) and renderng intent.
When you open the Windows printer settings, assuming that you are running Windows, do the setting match the above?
Let us know all of the settings. Hopefully one of them is wrong, you'll or we'll catch it, and suddenly things will improve.
One last question: How do the prints not match the monitor? This might a tough question to verbalize an answer to, but that would also help.
The reason I am requesting this is because if the above is not correct, buying all the calibration equipment in the world isn't going to solve the printing issues - just make them more expensive.
I'm working on a laptop with a glossy screen. The $800 is for a monitor and calibation software. About the prints, I get them done at a local lab. They do good work but my B&W's come out often to dark comparing to what was on my screen. I haven't printed alot, but I have adjusted colors & tones now assuming they won't look the same when I do print them. Hope all that made since. Most of this stuff I'm still learning and often become overwelmed. I'll get there, slowly but surely.
While I realize you might not have a great screen, do you calibrate it in any way? Some laptops aren't so bad if calibrated.
All that being said (and I'd definitely look into all of that before spending money)....the HP LP24XX models are reputed to be very good photo-work monitors for the money. And around $600 is the usual cost. (If you want to compare, My Simon is usually a pretty good site for price comparisons on electronics.)
What do you mean by soft-proof ?
B&W to dark. Colored prints more saturated.
And no I've never calibrated my screen. I know I need to but still want a better monitor.
Now, in Photoshop or other programs, you can soft-proof (create a print proof in software). This means that you have the computer read the ICC profile, and apply it to your image. Then the computer approximates what your image will look like in a print, and can show you things like shadows that get blocked, colors that are out of gamut, and other potential problems. Adjustments sometimes then need to be made to the image to improve the print (even if it makes it look worse on-screen - and of course you make the change to a copy of the image, not the master file).
It would probably help to read through some tutorials on color management. These are good really good and pretty straight forward :
Dry Creek Photo Color Management
Cambridge in Colour, Color Management Tutorial
As far as the problems you're seeing, dark prints of all types are common from uncalibrated monitors, because most LCD monitors are too bright by default. And the saturated colors could be any number of things. Hopefully with a little learning you can improve in the way you want to. Good luck!
You mentioned that you are having a third party lab do the printing for you. Depending on the lab, trying asking at the lab to see what your files look like on their screen. They are almost certainly working with a profiled system and this might give you a better idea as to where the problem lies. If the file looks dark there and matches the print, then we can go back to your system to work on a solution. If they are not working with a profiled system, RUN!
In any event, you definitely want to have a profiled monitor.
Since the HP uses an S-IPS panel made by LG, you are likely to get bright, high-contrast images with full color control, exactly what you need for calibration.
Another thing you will need to determine is what does your lab require in terms of imbedded profile and color spaces - Adobe RGB, sRGB or can they work with wider gamut. For example, MyPhotoPipe recommends jpg files and either sRGB or Adobe RGB colorspace. They have downloadable printer profiles if you want to soft-proof your image, but you do not imbed these in the image files.
Lastly, when performing a soft proof, be careful to set the correct rendering intent, which has to do how out of gamut colors are represented. The majority of the time with color photographic images you'll find that perceptual rendering intent will provide good results.
Can't help you with black and white images, I don't normally do them. I have read that selecting a printing service that uses high quality pigmented ink and paper is very important. I've also read that if you are using an Epson printer QTR is a good software RIP (raster image processor) that yields excellent b&w results - and you can test it before you buy it. (http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRrequire.html)
As in the old darkroom technique, it was possible to select developer/paper combinations to produce specific results- some papers were very cold (tending towards blue, like Ilford), others were neutral, while others were decidedly warm and creamy (like Kodak Medalist, preferred for portraiture). Other papers, when used in combination with developer solutions gave exceptional results - I used to love using Kodak Dektol developer and plain old Kodabromide paper - this combination when used on a diffusion head enlarger was capable of quite an expanded gray scale at the dark end - tremendous rendition of dark and shadow areas - that was hard to duplicate with any other combination. There are other wet processing techniques that give you other desirable results - like platinum/palladium printing - a contact printing process that inherently provides the longest grayscale and greatest control over contrast of all the printing processes I am aware of.
I also suggest reading as many of the great online tutorials on converting color images to b&w in photoshop as possible. There are many subtle and not so subtle nuances that can affect the final image quality. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/photoshop/b-w.htm makes a good point in favor of using alternative methods for converting and enhancing an image to give you the control and quality typical of wet darkroom technique.
http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Printer_to_Match_my_Screen
-Patrick Herold
Tech Support, www.chromix.com