Singh-Ray Grads with a Polarizer... How Do You Guys/Gals Do It?

For normal landscape shooting, I have a Canon 17-40mm and use a slimline (1-slot) Cokin holder for my P-size Singh-Ray ND Grad filter. I get a touch of vignetting at 17mm but nothing to raise a fuss. But the other day I needed to include my polarizer in order to clear up reflections in the foreground of a lake shot... so I mounted my CPL on the lens first and then I screwed on the Cokin holder onto the CPL filter. Naturally I had black on the sides of the frame in the viewfinder at 17mm (my B&W CPL is not a slim version). So when I got home I looked up slim CPLs, but they don't have front threads. Obviously I can't mount the holder.


I've seen postings where the photographer stated using a CPL and Singh-Ray or Lee P-size filters. How do you make it happen? Just crop the image to remove the black, or is there a secret I'm not figuring out? Or do you just hand-hold the ND Grads?

Thanks in advance!

I use the Singh-Ray thin ring mount polarizer and hand-hold the grad(s). No vignetting at all at 17mm. I just recently switched to the Singh-Ray 4x6 grad filters which makes it even easier to hand-hold them with an ultrawide lens. Another consideration is that hand-holding your GND's allows you more flexibility in placement of the grad line to eliminate visible artifacts of its usage in your image.

What is the filter size of your 17-40mm? Singh-Ray will take a Coken filter adapter and mount a circular polarizer or warming circular polarizer in it for you. They did it for me to use with my 18-35 Nikkor. The price is pretty reasonable. Then you have the best of both worlds.

- Dan.

If I know vignetting is going to happen wide @ 17mm, I will opt to hand hold a gnd filter, and skip the polarizer. The obvious choice is that under any blue sky scene, the polarizer used at that wide is going to have its own problem with banding across the sky. If I do find a case to use both, I just don't zoom out as much. - I use the Cokin P-mount btw, w/ singh-ray cir pol.

The short best answer when working in the fielf is simply make proper choices based the limitations of the equipment. If you can't do A+B+C, choose A+B, B+C, or A+C. For me, in general, the polarizer at 17mm is gonna be the first obvious choice to go.

Once again NPN comes through.

I think my option is a slim CPL and handholding when I do need the combo (not often). The B+W CPL I now have weighs almost as much as a kit lens I think! B+W uses some serious brass and glass (BTW Dan, it's 77mm).

Bret, you're right, if I handhold I can move the GND around a wee bit to reduce Grad Line Syndrome.

Gary, I've never had a need for using both in the past. This time was my first where the FG was rocks in a lake, and the CPL opened up the lake bottom very well. But I even get a little vignetting with the CPL alone I noticed. I haven't used the CPL much, I mostly prefer the GNDs. I've noticed that at 17mm a CPL tends to make an uneven sky (understatement!).

Looks like a classified ad is going up for a regular-frame CPL. Thanks guys!

Hey Paul-
If I could give one more option - not sure if you've considered this or not. I still carry my ND Grads, but I haven't used one in a long time. Simply because I never liked stacking filters, you always loose something and usually create more flare. Even with really good filters (I use B+W c-pl's & have a full set of Singh-Ray Galen Rowell ND grads), you're still running the risk of adding an unwanted effect to your shots.
So I stopped using ND-Grads, and now do a quick bracketed exposure (less than a second after the first image). One exposure for the sky, one for the foreground. I don't really consider it an HDR image, because I generally just use a gradient mask in PS to combine the images - it's exactly the same as if I had used a ND-Grad in the field, but I don't have any risk of vignetting, no loss of detail because of stacked filters, and no added chance of lens flare because of more elements. The great thing is, since the grad is done in post, I have much more control over it's position, and when the light is changing in the field you don't always have a lot of time to keep adjusting your nd grads (my experience anyways ).
Another thing I do with this 2 image "grad", while in the field, if I'm shooting into the sun - Take my foreground exposure and actually block the sun in the frame with my finger during the shot, then take the sky shot. That way, when I combine the images later, I'll have less lens flare in the foreground.
I think this is the year that I stop carrying my nd-grads in my gear bag (unless I know that I will have a special purpose for them - but I can't honestly think of a time when my new technique wouldn't work better for myself). I'll finally have room for stuff I really use, like another lens - or more likely... FOOD
Hope this helps.

Another option is to use a polarizer and a 100mm filter system rather than the 85mm Cokin P system. Unfortunately this drives up the cost of all the components. With a 100mm system, you could use a 2-3 slot filter holder and put the polarizer in one of the slots. I believe Lee makes this sort of polarizer.

The other thing I'd mention about hand holding a nd-grad is from my personal experience. I watched Art Wolfe do it, then I've tried it myself a couple times. Maybe I just needed more practice at it, but - well, it's awkward. And any movement you make will be transferred directly to the lens & may soften your image. This is only compounded by longer exposures. If you have any kind of "foreign body" on either the lens/c-pl, or the grad filter, you run the risk of scratching something in your adjustments. It just never worked well for me. I'm always searching for an easier way (which usually means simpler and has a positive impact on my photography) - and the 2 shot "grad" mask in post has gotten me shots I may have missed in the field with a real nd-grad. Plus, you can really customize your "post" grad much more than with a set plastic filters.
I would like to hear your thoughts (and others) regarding this. Some photogs disagree with this method, saying that it is digital "fakery", and that's ok. We all have to choose our own tools and methods. I personally don't consider it unethical, because the images are more true to what I saw in the field, and they were likely taken less than .5 seconds apart.

Like Dave I no longer (or rarely) use my split ND Grads. I make two exposures, one for the sky and one for the foreground for blending in PS. It allows quicker response to changing conditions, eliminates additional filters in front of the lens and if you haven't already purchased them, it saves a lot of money.

Unfortunately I'm too late on the saving money part.

Take my foreground exposure and actually block the sun in the frame with my finger during the shot, then take the sky shot.

Excellent tip! I had taken some canyon shots at Colorado National Monument w/o any grads, but the FG-exposed shot had tons o' sun flare washing out the horizon and below.

I imagine a 4x6 filter would be easier to handhold... I've had to edit out my thumb from the corner of images several times in the past! But if I could swing larger filters then I could use Mel's solution. Right now I can afford the brochures, that's about it.

BTW, I've tried the Grad filter in Photoshop CS4 (actually in ACR) and if your sky/FG isn't more than 2 stops apart, it's not all that bad. You can at least control the separation line position easily and adjust the exposure after you set the area to be edited. Since it's ACR, it's all non-destructive. Has anyone tried it?

The other thing I'd mention about hand holding a nd-grad is from my personal experience. I watched Art Wolfe do it, then I've tried it myself a couple times. Maybe I just needed more practice at it, but - well, it's awkward. And any movement you make will be transferred directly to the lens & may soften your image. This is only compounded by longer exposures. If you have any kind of "foreign body" on either the lens/c-pl, or the grad filter, you run the risk of scratching something in your adjustments. It just never worked well for me. I'm always searching for an easier way (which usually means simpler and has a positive impact on my photography) - and the 2 shot "grad" mask in post has gotten me shots I may have missed in the field with a real nd-grad. Plus, you can really customize your "post" grad much more than with a set plastic filters.
I would like to hear your thoughts (and others) regarding this. Some photogs disagree with this method, saying that it is digital "fakery", and that's ok. We all have to choose our own tools and methods. I personally don't consider it unethical, because the images are more true to what I saw in the field, and they were likely taken less than .5 seconds apart.

Wayne, there's always the Classifieds forum!

Paul-
I try to stick away from many of the PS filters, they just seem too generalized for my liking. I think that the grad filter would be the same, although I can't say for sure because I just never tried it - so forgive my ignorance.
My method from capture to post would be this-
In the field I use a tripod, manual focus & manual mode exposure (I've been using Live View a lot recently) get my exposure for the foreground & sky - shoot them in quick succession with a remote release (don't want the comp to move at all). It's important to note - when you change your exposure from the foreground to the sky exposure, DON'T change your aperture, only change your shutter speed. You most likely know this, but for anyone else, by changing your aperture, you'd change your depth of field - making it harder to match your two exposures in post.
Once the images have been imported into LR, I'll select them both and "round trip" export them to PS CS3/4. Once there, drag one of the files "Background Layer"'s onto the other image while holding the SHIFT button (that way they should match perfectly). I usually drag the foreground layer onto the sky exposure image - not sure why, just something I've always done. Once they are stacked in the same file (you can close the other image file) I check and uncheck the "Eye/Layer Visibility" icon to make sure they are indeed aligned. Once happy, create a layer mask on your top layer (I think it helps to have the foreground exposure on the top) and apply a gradient to the mask itself to reveal the sky exposure below. You can fine tune it to your hearts content. The longer the gradient line you draw, the longer the gradient mask will be - basically creating a longer transition for your "Digital ND-Grad", or you can go short and abrupt. It really depends on your subject and scene. This technique has never let me down. You can also use the grad mask you've made & convert it to a selection (if it seems appropriate), save the selection and then invert it when you apply sharpening, so that the sharpening effects don't touch the sky - less pixelation effects that way. Let me know if you have any questions about this, I'm always glad to help.

Dave, thanks! I pretty much do all you said up to the mask part. I need to experiment with that, because right now when I DO do a double image, I'm only erasing away sections and it looks not so great. I have a Total Training video all about masking, reckon I'd better watch it! Also, thanks for confirming about same aperture/different f-stop. And I now remember Marc Adamus telling me not to sharpen skies, but lately I've been forgetting about that, so another good reminder you gave me.

I just discovered that my 5D2 works with the $22 RC1 wireless remote shutter release, so I'll be grabbing one of those soon... better than pressing the shutter button, even with the 2-second lockup.

Thanks a BUNCH for your advice!

Handholding is the best option for shutter speed upto 10 sec or so..beyond that it's very difficult.
Two shots digital blend often don't work for longer exposures (say 30 sec or more) as the light changes quickly during the golden hour.
I use both techniques depending on the situation and what I have with me during the shoot.
Kevin Mcneal had a technique to attach NDs in front of the lens with some kind of string or bands - I am yet to try that

I'm with Dave and Wayne. For me, it's much quicker to combine 2 exposures using a simple layer mask than trying to mess with an ND Grad, especially when I'm using a CP. I have alot of respect for the purists who want to 'get it right in camera', but how many of them don't do significant post processing of their images anyway - very few, I would guess, if they want their images to compete in the digital era.

Another technique used by long time professional Tim Fitzharris is to use a small amount of gaffers tape to adhere the ND's to the front element. It's not for me personally but it would allow you to have the benefit of mounting the CPL & ND's without having to hand hold the latter.