A serious question about posting image-related comments on this forum

It's been the better part of three weeks since the forum posting guidelines were updated and I confess to finding myself confused about how to deal with them.

A couple of days ago I looked through roughly a dozen images that had been posted on this forum. Some of them--a significant minority--included some notation about critiques being welcome or encouraged; those I know how to deal with. But the majority of these images included no such statement, so I had to conclude that they were posted solely for the purpose of sharing. I was (and remain) sufficiently unsure about these images that I largely ended up not posting anything in these threads at all, because I'm not sure what's appropriate/acceptable. I gather anything that isn't entirely complimentary is out; that much I understand. But what kind of complimentary remarks are "in"? A critique can be--and on NPN, often is--entirely positive...but it's still a critique. I found myself wondering if it's okay to post positive remarks that smack of the critique format...and I found myself entirely uncertain. For instance, if I see an image which I think does a great job of capturing a certain emotion--because of the light or the composition or the subject matter itself or some combination of these and/or other factors...that's critique. It's wholly positive, but it's assuredly a critique. Is that kind of thing out if the image poster doesn't specify that critiques are desired?

Please understand--I'm not trying to be a wisea** or sarcastic or flippant. I'm simply trying to get a practical feel for implementing the current guidelines in the spirit in which they're intended because at the moment I feel completely at sea in trying to determine what's an acceptable comment and what isn't. If someone can provide some guidance, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks.

Kerry,

I'm always under the impression that any photo I post on NPN, regardless of where it is posted, is subject for critique. However, I'm more likely to post photos that I want to simply share on MWNP. Of course, if someone wants to critique it then that's an added bonus!!

Simply put, post what you want about an image. I don't see any harm in critiquing an image, even if it was originally meant to be shared. Hope this helps!

Nathaniel, thanks for your thoughts.

I don't know if you saw this thread or have read the recently revised posting guidelines. I'm trying to meet the spirit and the letter of these guidelines.

Kerry, I understand where you're coming from completely. Thanks for posting your concerns, because it seems the forum is in an uncertain place regarding appropriate commentary. When I joined this wonderful online organization around Halloween last year, I felt I had found my home in terms of a place to network with like minded nature photographers. I'm a very satisfied customer and have learned a lot from the forums, galleries, articles, etc...When I joined, I read the info on posting, guidelines, etc and when I thought I was up to speed, I began posting images and commenting on other images per the guidelines.

I always thought of the galleries as places for posting subject oriented images (avian, flora, fauna, etc) and the forums as places for posting geographic oriented images (images from the midwest, southeast, etc.). I don't ever remember reading anything about 'critique' galleries versus 'sharing' forums. That doesn't mean this distinction doesn't exist, it simply means I'm unaware of it. I'm open to being schooled on this!

As a result, I was under the assumption that all forums and galleries were set up to get comments and critiques, and have enjoyed both avenues for posting images. No matter where I posted images, I received comments and critiques, and always appreciated them no matter whether they were positive or negative. I cannot even comprehend an environment where people want to post images in a public forum, reassured by some vaguely implied guidelines that all comments offered better darn well be complimentary. Thats absurd. I didn't even know there was a problem until the posting guidelines were updated.

I recently went to the menus for both the galleries and the forums, and selected guidelines. I ended up in the same place. It seemed to me, there was no difference for posting in the galleries or the forums, The guidelines were identical. Can someone please help me find my way so I know how to appropriately comment on images posted in the forums?

After reading through the guidelines and discussion a bit, I've changed my view slightly. I suppose that if someone posts a photo and isn't looking for feedback, they shouldn't request anything, and viewers shouldn't post critiques on that photo. Now if someone does request feedback, then it's fair game to all.

I guess it's not a bad idea to have slightly relaxed expectations in this forum, as it'll make "showing off" different areas and ideas a bit easier.

Nathaniel, why would you post an image in a public forum if you didn't want feedback? That's the whole point of going public with anything, isn't it? What am I missing here? Someone please help me understand!?!

Wow, this sure is different than the PNWNP forum... those guys all post with the expectation that you'll nitpick it apart, in order to help them advance. In fact, they're not that excited about "pat on the back" replies, they want to hear what's wrong and they take it well. And please, I'm NOT saying we should do that here, it's really just an observation of different "climates" in a forum (for lack of a better word!).

I suppose the best and easiest solution is.... ask if you want it picked apart!

::::trumpet blast:::::

As a current PNWNP ( and one who derives about 80% of my income presently from Photography!) contributor, I value good critique....

I've been shooting images for 25 + years and learn from every workshop I conduct, every time I am in the field and above all from the input from the vast amount of good to really great photographers here on NPN.

I ve "hung out" on Nature Scape's and the like, and found that the input there, for the most part is very educational but NPN is for me, the best forum for photos, and information... from armature to pro on the Internet.

While I can see where Toni is coming from ( and I respect her view as she is a really good shooter & forum leader) , I for one like to get the feedback, good or bad or indifferent from other folks.

I have learned( from viewing the work, and comments here on NPN) who the photographers I can take input from, and accept, because they know they know their P's & Q's about photography from the ones who continue to post "snapshots" and are still learning to shoot competantly.

I make a living in photography primarily from doing workshops. I also sell images via the stock route and sell a fair amount o prints. After getting beaten up by some photo editor, who usually knows not a lot about photography, your skin gets thick pretty quick.

My workshops are usually between 3-4 days. We spend lots of time in the field. However most of my attendees tell me that the time reviewing and critiquing our work is AS valuable if not more than the field work.

I 've been lurking in this forum a lot. My schedule has made it tough to post and frankly I am running out of images I shot in the Midwest to post. I don't feel images from, say, the Columbia River Gorge belong here, they belong in the PNWNP area so therefore I don't post like I used to. However, the overall quality of images here has improved greatly from when I was an every day contributor in this forum. I believe that it's partly due to 1) Toni, 2) new blood and 3) the learning experience that has been gained from the critique.

Paul is correct. There is of nit picking in the PNWNP. Check out that forum sometime.... you will see that folks will tell Marc Adamus that his image might not be as good it could be because............ I think that's great and by the way... so does Marc.

Last week I spoke at the NFRCC ( www.nfrcc.org ) convention ( Niagara Frontier Regional Camera Club) convention in Buffalo with Rick Sammon and Michael Reichmann( www.luminous-landscape). I judged over 400 prints and 750+ slides.
Believe me, the difference between a really good image, and a GREAT image is usually a small "(nit") difference. By compdent folks giving honest critiques, I believe that all viewers can learn and grow & consistently make great images.

Visit the PNWNP and see. Theres no animosity here, no bitter feelings going on. Just lot of great shooters giving their input.

Just one mans opinion.
JG

I welcome feedback and even though I may not ever implement the changes it causes me to view images differently after that. I don't mind anyone critiqueing and even editing a image so I can see what they are looking at or for. With digital we can shoot more and get into a rut or develope a bad habit as quickly as we can improve.

Kerry...it's perfectly acceptable to post complimentary comments if a member doesn't ask for critique. The "Icy Shores" image posted by Benjamin is a good example of that!

Brian...Some people simply just want to share images of places where they have been and what they've seen without the critique. Personally, I prefer critiques on my images, but by the same token, I respect the decision of those who don't.

I'm glad to see this topic get more discussion. I have the same confusion as Kerry, and voiced that opinion during the original discussion. For me, reading posts became an effort to determine what an acceptable response under the guidelines would be. (If comments were requested - what does that mean? No critique?) I also saw the sudden drop in meaningful feedback, so I bowed out. You also may have noticed the absence of Joel T.

Here's my suggestion. Based on the feedback I've read, and Toni's comments, a majority of image posters want feedback. So, the default assumption should logically be that C&C is requested without the poster specifically asking for it. That would put things back to how they were. Now, for those who are only sharing an image and don't want feedback, they would clearly say so in their post (I've seen "Just thought I'd share this. No need to critique.")

I'll continue watching to see how this turns out. Regards, over and out.

I would have to agree with a lot that has been said. As I said in the earlier post the whole point of posting most photos is to get some feedback. The new policy seems to have cast a pall over the forum. I put a stock comment on my images so that anyone can feel free to comment but I’m not sure what the point of looking at the forum is if no one is critiquing photos.

I would agree with Ken the default should be critique unless someone specifically asks not to have a citique.

"Brian...Some people simply just want to share images of places where they have been and what they've seen without the critique. Personally, I prefer critiques on my images, but by the same token, I respect the decision of those who don't."

Toni, I understand your position as you have stated it before. I just disagree with it, as do most of the people responding to Kerry's original post. The updated forum posting guidelines has had a negative impact on the forum, and so far, that has not been addressed. Nor has anyone responded to my questions regarding NPN's guidelines for galleries versus forums, which is frustrating. I'm also wondering where the people are that you are suggesting come here to share snapshots of their travels. They seem eerily silent in this discussion, as though you are defending ghosts. Not only that, in the five months I've been coming to this forum to learn and grow as a photographer, I do not recall a single person post such an image as you have described. The response to your changes to the forum posting guidelines has been overwhelmingly negative and the changes thoroughly unnecessary. I hope you begin to respond to people's legitimate concerns instead of simply restating your policy.

Folks, my apologies; I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest with this thread. I would be lying, however, if I said that I was entirely surprised by the reaction, simply based on what I've seen--and haven't seen--on this forum since the posting guideline changes were put into place.

Since the nest has already been disturbed, I'm going to carefully poke at it a bit more...

There's no question that, since the new posting guidelines have been put into effect, this forum's modus operandi has changed. Image post rates are noticeably down; comments in image threads have been reduced even more dramatically.

Of one thing I am absolutely positive--this was not the intended result of the new guidelines.

When the original thread on this topic was broached, I opted to stay out of the discussion. Frankly, I thought both sides of that conversation had valid points. I believe the new guidelines were established in an attempt to enhance the forum experience for everyone by allowing those of us who prefer the C&C approach to image postings to co-exist easily with those participants who might not be engaged at all without a seamless way to invoke a lower key (perhaps less intimidating) environment. I think that the new guidelines were developed with the very best of intentions.

Unfortunately, it appears that the law of unintended consequences has reared its ugly head, as is so often the case. On the one hand, many established forum participants seem to be confused about how to proceed at best and, at worst, have dropped out of sight completely. On the other hand, there's been virtually no evidence of a silent majority of former lurkers now posting images for the purposes of sharing--the very category of individuals for whom the guidelines were changed in the first place. It seems we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Is there any chance we could reopen the discussion about how to best address the concerns that led to the guideline changes in the first place with the stated goal of retaining what was best about this forum in the first place while still retaining the notion that some adjustment of the original guidelines might be in order?

I've been participating on this forum for a long time, as I know many others here have. I very well remember when the MWNP forum was virtually moribund. There was a time, not that long ago, when there was scarcely any reason to bother checking this forum at all. I was greatly encouraged about 18 months ago when I saw new signs of life which have made this a much more vibrant place. My concern is that a lot of those gains could unintentionally be undone and I'd hate to see that happen.

Personally, I love having my images critiqued. However, I don't see why it's harmful to anyone if we allow (not require!) users to simply post images in order to share them without receiving a critique. I have occasionally wanted to post an image that I know isn't great simply to show-off an area, but I didn't because I didn't feel it was up to typical standards, both in terms of my own ability and NPN's expectations. While I may not use it very often, having the option to post an image saying "This is a cool spot, and here's a quick look at it." without expecting a critique is something I'd value. Does this mean that there are to be no critiques in MWNP? No, but it does allow the option for a little more relaxed posting.

I joined this forum & network to become a better photographer. I very much appreciate any feedback that I receive from my posts. THAT"S WHY I'M HERE. I also want to learn from other peoples posts and critiques. There are some very talented photographers on this site (obviously). Sharing images and thoughts benefit everyone. Rip my images or praise them, I'm looking for honest feedback. I'm trying to grow, I don't know it all and never will. I provide feedback freely when I have something constructive to share and feel strongly about. I hope most of us feel the same...

I'll maybe go out on a limb here and take it a step further, if you just want to "share" your pictures without critique, maybe there are better sites to do that. Use one of those flicker type sites to share your photos. I hope this site is a little more professional and has higher standards than just another place to share photos. There are plenty of outlets for that type of internet posting of photography. Critique me, I'll critique you, heck, critique what I just wrote.


One last thing. Sorry if I have ever critiqued someones photo they were just trying to share. I guess I misunderstood the purpose of Nature Photograpers.Net. Ken where did you and Joel surf off too? Maybe I could join you? Hate to see you leave!!!

Peace,

I don't see why it's harmful to anyone if we allow (not require!) users to simply post images in order to share them without receiving a critique...

I get the feeling that some of you are taking it (a very minor change!) the wrong way. The only thing that is changing is that when you post an image...let us know whether or not you want critique. Is that so difficult to do?? That's all there's to it...add one simple line asking for C&C. If you don't...it will be taken for granted that you are just sharing the image.

I'm not taking anything away...nothing else is changing, so please....don't try to read between the lines, because you won't find any hidden messages there!

Toni, again you restate your policy without listening to the overwhelming opinion voiced here (please reread my last comment for a simple solution.) If your change was so "minor" why is everyone so opposed to it? I don't want to spend much more of my time on this so I'll get to the point. This is not a dictatorship so you need to listen to the paying customers. Quit trying to argue your case and just fix the problem.

Over and out ...again.

If your change was so "minor" why is everyone so opposed to it......the default assumption should logically be that C&C is requested without the poster specifically asking for it

So let's hear it....tell me why "everyone" is opposed to it.....

"Why should that be the default assumption? Just because it's always been that way?"

Yes. Also because forum members are:

a) confused by the change
b) upset by the change
c) leaving the forum because of the change
d) posting less because of the change
e)commenting less because of the change
f) overwhelmingly opposed to the change

And with all of these negative trends on the forum, you refuse to even address people's concerns, which is perhaps the most troubling part, in my opinion. Thanks, Ken, for stating the matter so clearly.

I understand that people are getting upset, but please--let's try to keep our collective cool. The potential for misunderstanding surrounding this form of communication is legion; let's try to give one another the benefit of the doubt. I honestly don't think that anyone involved in this dispute has a different goal than anyone else; we're simply seeing some disagreement about how to get there.

Toni, since the guideline change, this forum isn't quite the same place. As a few people have pointed out, participation by longstanding members is down. Participation from previously quiet members is unchanged. Overall participation--both posting images and comments in threads--is down across the board. It seems highly unlikely that this is a coincidence; something about this change has impacted things negatively.

Adding a C&C line to one's post doesn't appear to be a big deal, but it seems that maybe it is. For instance, I skipped commenting on one of Nathaniel's recent posts because he didn't specifically ask for critique. He has since stated that he misunderstood the guidelines (so I'm off to take another look at his image and post a comment momentarily), but I doubt he's the only one. I didn't comment on one of CJ's images recently for the same reason...though I wondered at the time if the lack of a "C&C welcome" type of message was on oversight on his part. It just seems that we're spending a lot of our time now wondering if the absence of a comments welcome tag is an oversight or not and if it isn't what's okay to post.

I suspect that part of the issue is that--as far as I know--this is the only forum/gallery on NPN that encourages images to be posted but ensuing critiques aren't the default option. That means there's one set of guidelines/expectations here and another set everywhere else on NPN.

When the current IC boards were first established on NPN, way back in 2003, when an image was posted there was a dialog where the poster had to choose "critique" (the default) or "showcase" upon uploading/linking the image. The "showcase" option implied that the image was being posted for that reason--and, presumably, that no critique was requested. Almost no one every chose that option, so I guess it was eliminated...and a long time ago at that.

I kind of wish that capability still existed. But since it doesn't...what about Ken's suggestion to make the critique the default and the "share" option a poster would specify upon posting? That does seem more in line with the NPN convention, on the one hand, and the majority opinion of those who have weighed in on this matter on the other.

Having been a member of NPN for years and seeing the MWNP forum inactive for much of that time I would like to take a moment to thank Toni and others for taking the time to get it to the point where a passionate discussion such as this is possible. This might be an example of "any press is good press". This type of thread may just be another shot in the arm to take this forum to the next level.

That said, I have always assumed that any image is subject to critique unless it specifically states otherwise. I was apparently wrong with my assumption but certainly don't mind typing a single line stating "All C&C welcome". I welcome all critiques, positive or negative, in regards to any image I post on NPN. The critiques I have received here have helped improve my photography and photoshop skills.

Well said, Kirk. I appreciate your input and historical perspective. I joined last October and didn’t know this board was inactive for a number of years. I’m glad to be a part of the emergence of the forum, and like the direction it has taken as much as you. This is exactly why I have become vocal on this issue.

Three weeks ago when it was proposed, I had no dog in the fight and wrote that I saw both sides of the issue, with an inclination to leave things as they were (in the spirit of ‘if it aint broke’). The problem for me is, that the results of the change have been negative.

I agree with the way Kerry has framed it. There were only good intentions all around, but sometimes, unintended consequences have real world implications, and the changes have resulted in more confusion and an overall negative trend in the direction of the forum as a whole.

In a perfect world, it is a simple solution to have people add a simple phrase indicating c & c is welcome, but it turns out to be more problematic in practice. Some people aren’t aware of the change, some are habituated to not including it yet expect and welcome comments because they are used to it, and still others are too excited about posting their image and forget to include the phrase. For whatever reason, it just hasn’t worked as planned, and the result has been a decrease in commentary overall, reversing the positive momentum of the forum, if you believe the direction has been positive.

I personally want to get to where the Pacific NWNP or the RMNP forums are, where you can expect to have 15 to 25 diverse, helpful comments and critiques on images you post. But I can also appreciate that some people might want a slower paced, business as usual forum, like it was in previous years. Is this what this debate is all about? I don’t know, but I’m in the camp that likes more critique, not less.

I’ve said enough about all this for one thread. I’m tired and hope to wake up tomorrow with ten new images to view and comment on! God bless the MWNP and cheers to ALL who make it the forum that it is,

Brian

Toni,

I think I failed to communicate my thoughts properly. I was agreeing with your policy, saying that it seems kinda silly to have every image posted here to be required to accept critiques.

I agree strongly with what Steve said- I really don't think typing an additional line is going to hurt anyone. Also, to me, the more options we have while posting something the better. If this requires a little speed bump for us to get used to this new style, that's fine. Change isn't always easy. I tend to think that we, not the guidelines, are responsible for whatever state this forum is in, so it's up to us to get it back on its feet. If we see a new member (i.e. me) post an image that doesn't ask for C+C, maybe we should kindly point out that they need to indicate if they want to receive a critique. Just a little added effort will make us seem like a more open and friendly community, which will go much farther in maintaining the activity of this forum than a change of guidelines.

I also don't think there's ever been a debate on what type of community this is. We often overlook the responsibilities and burdens of the leader, and as a result fail to see that they're trying to balance everybody's needs and desires. Though I lurk more often than post, I think Toni's been doing a fantastic job in staying active with the discussion and with the forum itself.

I was a bit surprised to see this topic re-open again, as it seemed that the mandate had pretty much been set in stone. Obviously there's very strong feelings both ways, and I agree that we need to take a deep breath and keep things in perspective. I saw it was mentioned that I wasn't around as much, and this is true to a point. Please note: I haven't “quit” MWNP, but instead have simply decided to follow the suggestion given in the first posting – that of becoming more involved in the “critique” forums; fair enough, makes some sense. I still pop in to MWNP from time to time, I just won't be as frequently active here. No biggie. I've greatly enjoyed and will continue to enjoy interacting with the folks here on MWNP. You're all great people.

Quickly, to Steve F.: While I completely respect your opinion (which you've spent a great deal of time laying out), I really don't appreciate the underhanded insults in your posting here. For someone who's supposedly waving the “can't we all get along” banner, you seem more than willing to pass judgment on the other good folks here, myself included. “Whatever” does indeed seem an appropriate response. Quite frankly, I'm a bit disappointed. Please don't simply assume you know the full story of what people are doing and why.

Anyhow, Since opinions are being offered again, I figured I'd give another swing at the horse. I didn't offer this assessment in the previous post since I didn't want to offend anyone, but if we're all being honest with each other, now seems like as good a time as any. So here you go, reasons why I prefer a critique-unless-requested atmosphere; in no particular order of importance:

1. A critique-unless-requested policy would create continuity between the various regional forums (PNWNP, RMNP, etc, operate in this manner).
2. Critiques establish a baseline expectation of quality. Like everyone here, I value my time, and I don't really want to waste my time looking/commenting on sub-par images just to make people feel good...sorry people. There's a reason why I'm a member of NPN – the photography here is consistently very good. Why tear down one of the very things that make NPN a great place to be involved in? We simply can't be everything to everyone. It's a pleasant thought, but doesn't work in practice.
3. Offering only praise is disingenuous and shallow, offering only superficial benefits to the recipient.
4. If one doesn't care what other photographers think about their image (fair enough), why post the image for photographers to see in the first place? Obviously photographers will view it as photographers. Unless the posting is informational, it ultimately strikes me as disrespectful of other people's time, to simply expect a pat on the back. Am I missing something here?
5. As the saying goes, “If it isn't broke...”. Yes, the forum was growing and participation seemed to be on the upswing. Enough said.
6. The vast majority of members do indeed want critiques. Thus, it would make more sense to occasionally offer a “critique not needed” if that really was the case. Judging by other regional forums, the frequency of this occurring is extremely rare. Honor the members wishes.


Enough from me. I won't say anything more regarding this issue. Promise. Take care and best wishes everyone.

I hope so too Steve. Thanks for the follow up. Peace.

Lot's of passion out there. I agree with Joel, and he makes a great point that a vast majority of members desire comments and critiques of their images.

How about intruducing a simple check box when posting an image? Comments and Critiques welcome, or No Comments and Critques requested. May that simple click in a check box help solve this problem? Just a thought.

Respectfully,

I have been contacted by several folks from this forum, and what follows is my response to one of them with some further clarification.

Though "photo sharing" is a very legitimate reason to post a photo, my feeling is that unless otherwise stated, photos are posted primarily on NPN in hopes of receiving thoughtful critique with the goal of improving one's photography.

However, what a person expects from posting a photo should be spelled out in their post - whether it is for sharing, showcasing or critique. Without this information, those responding really have no way of knowing what the person posting the photo is looking for. Without providing this information in the original post, I think the vast majority of commenting will default to "critique mode."

As I have for years, I remain convinced that "satisfactory responses" to a posted photo MUST start with the person posting it! Just state your primary motivation for posting the photo, whether it be for sharing, informational purposes or for critique. If no guidance is given, expect default mode - which on NPN means photo critique.

Regional forums have a great deal of lattitude on how they are run. The moderators of regional forums have the thankless task of keeping them informative and enjoyable for all who participate. As can be seen here, this is not always an easy task. A little flexibility by all can make a big difference.

I hope this helps!

I noticed that the guidelines have been changed to something I think everyone can get along with. I'm very glad we were able to get to this point

Thanks for your input, Jim!

To everyone else:
Just to set the record straight....it was never my intention to change the default from critique to sharing, but in wording the posting guidelines the way I did, that's the way it came out, unfortunately, and I do apologize for that. The guidelines have now been changed to what Jim said..."please state your primary motivation for posting the photo". I hope that meets with everyone's approval and expectations!

And guys...thanks for (mostly) keeping your cool throughout this discussion...that's what makes this forum so great!

Toni, thanks for clarifying things. I didn't intend to turn this into a cause celebre when I started this thread, but it kind of became one; please accept my apologies for that. Thanks for remaining so even-tempered and doing such a great job moderating this forum.

When i post here I assume I will be critiqued, To make it simple, simply state in your posting that you want it or maybe you just posted photo to pass on something you saw in your travels you want to share..I really like being critiqued negatively and positively...
Success usually does not come without a failure....Thanks to all of you for commenting on my photos over the past year..

I forgot something,, Hey kerry nice topic to get a good conversation going.

Wow. That's what I get for going away for awhile. I miss all of the fun. Congratulations to all of you for handling the debate so well. Anyone reading this thread will know that MWNP members are passionate about their craft.