OK, another (maybe not-so-great) idea I'd like to serve up...
I am thinking about creating a Prints & Posters Gallery on NPN. It would essentially be a standard IC gallery intended for NPN members to post their prints and posters for sale. It would work like this:
1. NPN members would post photos that are available as prints.
2. Member would provide full details, including sizes available and prices.
3. Buyers would contact member directly to purchase.
4. Comment section would be active for the posting of questions, comments, etc.
5. No auto-deletion after 35 days.
This would be a "value added" feature for NPN Membership and NPN would in no way be part of any transaction. The Prints and Posters gallery would get plenty of promotion on NPN.
With nearly 100,000 unique visitors monthly spending on avereage over 10 minutes per day on the NPN site, I'm betting a Prints and Posters gallery would get plenty of traction. Let me know your thoughts on this one!
Hey Jim, sounds like a good idea, is there a limit to how many images can be posted as I have about three hundred and fifty images that I sell. Would the posting limits be like the other galleries, one post every 48 hours or do you go wild and post all at one time? Would everyone have an individal gallery or are everybodies images mix together?
Jim, I think it's a great idea and agree with limiting the number of prints, otherwise it could just become overwhelming for visitors. Would non-traditional "prints" be allowed. I'm thinking of tile murals and that sort of thing.
Larry Reitz
Posted by Phillip Noll on April 3, 2009 at 10:15 AM
Here's a few thoughts for consideration.......
What if the Prints and Poster's Gallery was juried? NPN members could submit their images once a week, a jury (perhaps the NPN staff?) would pick the top 2 (or 3, or 4 ,etc.) for inclusion in the group of images available for purchase. You could limit the number of images any given NPN member could submit and then only the very best images would be available for sale through NPN. You could then start over every year so as to have a fresh batch for the public to choose from (with previous years still available of course).
Seems to me that you would want to limit the total number of images available for sale or it could get overwhelming to potential customers. Some kind of quality control (juried selections) would also be prudent so that customers would recognize NPN as a source for the very best images available. If the Prints & Posters gallery has too many to choose from and if the quality isn't top-notch, the public may lose interest.
Phillip has a great idea. You would want the best of NPN to be eligible for the "for sale" gallery. What if weekly picks = eligible for the Prints gallery? That will ensure that they're great images, and it will automatically limit the number that any member can have there.
Pete D.
Posted by Mia McPherson on April 3, 2009 at 11:08 AM
I thought this would be separate, like our portfolios are. Then that section could be easily limited to a certain number, to say, each memeber can sell 15.
It would not need to be juried and the viewer could eaisly look them up by the person's name.
Some people who win EP's have no intention or desire to sell prints. Some people who have never been selected for EP's sell a fair amount of prints.
If only the "best" could do this, I don't think it would be fair.
Posted by Wayne Rhodus on April 3, 2009 at 12:01 PM
Anyone who sells prints would embrace another venue to market their images but I think this is dangerous in the sense that NPN has traditionally been a place where amateur and professionals alike display their work side by side. Were you to do this, NPN would definitely want to have only the very best images for sale and not just allow any images at the discretion of the photographer him/herself.
If images for sale become eligible only through a juried process that would seriously impeed the realistic chances of an amateur photographer (whatever their experience level) having their work selected. The full time professionals will have a much larger body of quality work to submit and would dominate the site.
I know this would be voluntary participation but I could see the possibility of NPN losing some of it's amateur members if they decided to test the waters by submitting some images for inclusion and being rejected. Isn't there enough rejection and competition out there all ready?
Don't get me wrong, I would hope the professionals would dominate the images for sale forum, they should. I just think there is a down side here that needs to be considered and if NPN isn't getting a cut then there's no incentive to do this except to drive more traffic to the site (and do you really need that).
Just my $0.02 for consideration.
Posted by Jamie Botdorf on April 3, 2009 at 12:17 PM
I like the thought behind offering members another avenue to present their work...but maybe it would be easier to allow each person to post one of their best (favorite) shots and general info about what kinds of prints/pricing they offer, contact info, etc. and then link visitors to their PhotoPortfolios.net portfolio (or personal website) to show their larger collection of prints/images. The gallery then becomes a new front door to their work.
This would still allow people to comment/ask question, get interested buyers in direct contact with the photographer and leverage the gallery forum capabilities in tandem with the membership benefit of the PhotoPortfolios.net site.
Posted by Greg Maklae on April 3, 2009 at 12:21 PM
While this looks good on paper, a way to limit its size is needed. A juried selection is not the way to go, as is the case with the galleries, only a select few will be allowed in. It must be available to all members, since we all pay our dues. My suggestion is to limit the number of entries to say 1 or 2 a month, and charge a posting fee of say $5 . The money collected can go to either to improve the site, or be donated to certain (nonpolitical) groups, such as in this area the Adirondak Mountain Club, which would benefit photography in the long run. The receiving group can be rotated around the country so photographers from all regions will benefit.
I have to say, as a newbie, that I love the idea of being able to sell prints/posters here, as well as on my personal site.
I think a) the number of prints a person can have available for sale is a def. must and b) there is no way it should be a "juried" selection of NPN prints--as well said previoiusly, we all pay our dues. And the "market" out there is not only looking for expensive, stunning images taken with multi-thousand dollar equipment by experts known throughout the world, but simpler, more affordable offerings as well.
Maybe you have "the best of NPN" available as an addition?. But each member should be entitled to have their work for sale, to reach the tremendous click rate and viewers this site commands.
Everyone has made valid points thus far. I just want to ad another thing to ponder? Listing the price of the prints on NPN! Most of us here that already offer prints mainly have the same sizing, print methods etc. Is there going to be any grumbling that comes into place if several photographers have basically the same images, size, etc. and one lists his / her pricing per print several dollars to hundreds of dollars cheaper. I am thinking the general public maybe will think " what the h%$l is going on here?" Just my 1/2 cent!
There are certainly elements of this idea that I like, but the more I think about it, the less I want to see it on NPN.
For me at least, NPN is a place for learning and for being part of a community. While there is a friendly challenge with the weekly picks, there really isn't a sense of competition between us, which I believe is largely responsible for NPN being a more constructive and valuable website than others. Once you involve money, people's behaviors change, and usually for the worse. Sure, we get some exposure by being here, but generally speaking we aren't at NPN to make a buck, but instead to become better photographers.
I'm totally in favour of making some changes to PhotoPortfolios.net to encourage sales there. It's already got a much better framework for offering prints and posters, rather than trying to come up with all sorts of limits and conditions for a gallery on NPN...
This is why I seek input before I do something like this!
My initial thought is that is would simply be an open gallery - any member can post. The thought of being selective of who or what is posted had not crossed my mind. One post every 48 hours would be the limitation. So, there is no competitive aspect whatsoever to it.
Putting myself in the shoes of the non-photographer visiting this site, I suspect I might be interested in purchasing a print or two for my wall. Having a gallery where all prints are posted would be a handy way of finding what I'm looking for.
But, some seem to have reservations about this idea so I'll need to put my tinfoil thinking cap back on. Seems like PhotoPortfolios would be a better place to do this.
I think the idea has some merit and deserves discussion. There have already been some good points. Here are a few of my thoughts off the top of my head. (not much in there, so take this for what it's worth..)
1. Definitely no "judging" or selection process. It should be open to all paid members who wish to participate. Market forces and quality of work would be the driving force on whether or not any sales are made.
2. Even if the max submission would be the 48 hour rule, there is potential to have so many images posted that an image would scroll off the first page after a day or so - like in ES&S. I liked the idea of perhaps monthly.
3. Also, make it searchable. In other words, folks would have to keyword their images. Visitors coming to NPN might be looking for images of Aspens, Mt. Rundle or Sand Dunes and having a search feature would make that much easier for the visitor rather than scrolling through pages and pages of images.
4. Keep it nature related, which is at the core of NPN. One of the main reasons I came with and stuck with NPN is because I'm not interested in seeing pictures of the Seattle skyline, the GG Bridge or cute little pictures of puppies and babies.
5. Pricing. I would agree with Cindy in that at least making publishing the pricing optional. Although I agree and would expect there to be a great pricing different between photographers, again it's market driven. You get what you pay for (well, that's the theory anyway.) Personally, I place a high value on my own work and won't give it away. Although really a topic for another discussion, it's why I don't participate in RF (royalty free) marketing. Even though I'm not a working professional who makes my living at photography, I respect those who do make a living at it, and I price things hopefully in the ballpark of what a professional would for fine, nature prints. If people find value in our work, they'll pay for it.
Having said that, you mentioned posters. Posters may be a great avenue because they can be produced cheaper and therefore sold at a lower price. You're paying a lower price because a poster is not intented for long time archivability and posters are great for college dorm rooms, but not necessarily framed hanging above your fireplace or in a 5star hotel lobby.
6. Lastly, if you do end up implementing something along these lines, I would recommend it be a completely different section of NPN and not just another gallery pull-down. Personally, I'd like to keep it separated from the raw commenting and participation in the various galleries and forums.
Jim,
I think everyone has listed some very good ideas throughout all the comments. I also think Lon's list has some excellent suggestions pulling some ideas from that list of comments. I feel #4 on Lon's list should hold the main theme for that selling area as well.
One additional thought might be to have the sellers showcase pages with just one special image each or on a slide show of several images from those who would like to sell their prints and posters, then hot link that one image(s) to the individuals portfolio or maybe even their personal web site. This would maybe cut down on the number of pages that a buyer would have to scroll through.
Anyway, just tossing out another idea in an attempt to streamline or help simplify it a bit.
I think the main NPN site should remain as is; a learning and social community of, by, and for nature photographers. I was around when the overt marketing here very nearly caused the demise of NPN, and, like Cindy, I don't want that to happen again.
I suggest that Photoportfolios.net be used as a vehicle for marketing and selling. I think it would be relatively simple to add fields as follows:
1. Types of products they offer, e.g. 'rights managed', prints, calendars, books, etc.
2. Print sizes available, if selling prints; hard cover/softcover if selling books, etc.
3. Pricing, if they to include this info
4. Contact information above and beyond the existing E-Mail link.
By doing it this way, another gallery does not have to be created and managed, overt advertising and competition on the main NPN site is kept to a minimum, and each photographer will have the responsibility to maintain their portfolio as it is already being done.
I know I haven't been around much lately--just lots of stuff going on. However, the suggestion to have selling within NPN simply doesn't feel right to me.
I think you should open up a chain of "NPN" galleries in big cities. Selling everyone's prints, calendars, cards. It would be like a giant co-op with the NPN name on it.
Your idea of providing more value to subscribers is good, but the maketing and sales should not be on the main NPN site.
Some modification of Portfolios.Net would seem to be the most logical venue.
It looks like Preston beat me to it. I was going to post this morning that the portfolios seem to be the natural avenue for print selling. It would be great if it could be incorporated here. I have about 150 prints in my gallery which sell well and 30 which are definitely the best sellers. If the print sale section was designed like the critique galleries, then these best selling images would soon be at buried deeply. I think the portfolios would allow photographers to choose what to offer for print. Perhaps something more could be done to promote images from the portfolios as well as a link to the best selling images on NPN. Anyway, great idea Jim! Thanks for all you do to make this such a great place!
Keep NPN as it is. The marketing of photos and the selling thereof should be on one's own turf (read website). NPN is about sharing and learning, open this can of worms and it will get messy around here like it did before. Giving us the opportunity to list our websites, blogs, and workshops is all we really need. If a person likes what they see in the forums they have ample means to get to the web page where they can buy a print or a poster from us if we are in the business of selling.
Now Benjamin Glatt has a cool idea but very costly.
Money (and greed) are very powerful. I do not want to see NPN go this route. I am relatively new here, so I won't say too much, but the reason I joined is because of the sharing and learning possibilities that are here. If you want to give the members here more value, and increasing the likelihood of members selling their work is the way you want to do it, then I agree with those who proposed using the portfolios site. Keeping it off of NPN is the only way to keep NPN what it currently is, a great place to share and learn. Just my thoughts.
Discussion
22 repliesI am thinking about creating a Prints & Posters Gallery on NPN. It would essentially be a standard IC gallery intended for NPN members to post their prints and posters for sale. It would work like this:
1. NPN members would post photos that are available as prints.
2. Member would provide full details, including sizes available and prices.
3. Buyers would contact member directly to purchase.
4. Comment section would be active for the posting of questions, comments, etc.
5. No auto-deletion after 35 days.
This would be a "value added" feature for NPN Membership and NPN would in no way be part of any transaction. The Prints and Posters gallery would get plenty of promotion on NPN.
With nearly 100,000 unique visitors monthly spending on avereage over 10 minutes per day on the NPN site, I'm betting a Prints and Posters gallery would get plenty of traction. Let me know your thoughts on this one!
As for how many prints and poster sell depends upon what kind of visitor we get a NPN. But it is worth giving it a try.
-Jay
Larry Reitz
What if the Prints and Poster's Gallery was juried? NPN members could submit their images once a week, a jury (perhaps the NPN staff?) would pick the top 2 (or 3, or 4 ,etc.) for inclusion in the group of images available for purchase. You could limit the number of images any given NPN member could submit and then only the very best images would be available for sale through NPN. You could then start over every year so as to have a fresh batch for the public to choose from (with previous years still available of course).
Seems to me that you would want to limit the total number of images available for sale or it could get overwhelming to potential customers. Some kind of quality control (juried selections) would also be prudent so that customers would recognize NPN as a source for the very best images available. If the Prints & Posters gallery has too many to choose from and if the quality isn't top-notch, the public may lose interest.
Just an idea.
Pete D.
It would not need to be juried and the viewer could eaisly look them up by the person's name.
Some people who win EP's have no intention or desire to sell prints. Some people who have never been selected for EP's sell a fair amount of prints.
If only the "best" could do this, I don't think it would be fair.
If images for sale become eligible only through a juried process that would seriously impeed the realistic chances of an amateur photographer (whatever their experience level) having their work selected. The full time professionals will have a much larger body of quality work to submit and would dominate the site.
I know this would be voluntary participation but I could see the possibility of NPN losing some of it's amateur members if they decided to test the waters by submitting some images for inclusion and being rejected. Isn't there enough rejection and competition out there all ready?
Don't get me wrong, I would hope the professionals would dominate the images for sale forum, they should. I just think there is a down side here that needs to be considered and if NPN isn't getting a cut then there's no incentive to do this except to drive more traffic to the site (and do you really need that).
Just my $0.02 for consideration.
This would still allow people to comment/ask question, get interested buyers in direct contact with the photographer and leverage the gallery forum capabilities in tandem with the membership benefit of the PhotoPortfolios.net site.
I think a) the number of prints a person can have available for sale is a def. must and b) there is no way it should be a "juried" selection of NPN prints--as well said previoiusly, we all pay our dues. And the "market" out there is not only looking for expensive, stunning images taken with multi-thousand dollar equipment by experts known throughout the world, but simpler, more affordable offerings as well.
Maybe you have "the best of NPN" available as an addition?. But each member should be entitled to have their work for sale, to reach the tremendous click rate and viewers this site commands.
Just my .03!
For me at least, NPN is a place for learning and for being part of a community. While there is a friendly challenge with the weekly picks, there really isn't a sense of competition between us, which I believe is largely responsible for NPN being a more constructive and valuable website than others. Once you involve money, people's behaviors change, and usually for the worse. Sure, we get some exposure by being here, but generally speaking we aren't at NPN to make a buck, but instead to become better photographers.
I'm totally in favour of making some changes to PhotoPortfolios.net to encourage sales there. It's already got a much better framework for offering prints and posters, rather than trying to come up with all sorts of limits and conditions for a gallery on NPN...
My initial thought is that is would simply be an open gallery - any member can post. The thought of being selective of who or what is posted had not crossed my mind. One post every 48 hours would be the limitation. So, there is no competitive aspect whatsoever to it.
Putting myself in the shoes of the non-photographer visiting this site, I suspect I might be interested in purchasing a print or two for my wall. Having a gallery where all prints are posted would be a handy way of finding what I'm looking for.
But, some seem to have reservations about this idea so I'll need to put my tinfoil thinking cap back on. Seems like PhotoPortfolios would be a better place to do this.
I think the idea has some merit and deserves discussion. There have already been some good points. Here are a few of my thoughts off the top of my head. (not much in there, so take this for what it's worth..)
1. Definitely no "judging" or selection process. It should be open to all paid members who wish to participate. Market forces and quality of work would be the driving force on whether or not any sales are made.
2. Even if the max submission would be the 48 hour rule, there is potential to have so many images posted that an image would scroll off the first page after a day or so - like in ES&S. I liked the idea of perhaps monthly.
3. Also, make it searchable. In other words, folks would have to keyword their images. Visitors coming to NPN might be looking for images of Aspens, Mt. Rundle or Sand Dunes and having a search feature would make that much easier for the visitor rather than scrolling through pages and pages of images.
4. Keep it nature related, which is at the core of NPN. One of the main reasons I came with and stuck with NPN is because I'm not interested in seeing pictures of the Seattle skyline, the GG Bridge or cute little pictures of puppies and babies.
5. Pricing. I would agree with Cindy in that at least making publishing the pricing optional. Although I agree and would expect there to be a great pricing different between photographers, again it's market driven. You get what you pay for (well, that's the theory anyway.) Personally, I place a high value on my own work and won't give it away. Although really a topic for another discussion, it's why I don't participate in RF (royalty free) marketing. Even though I'm not a working professional who makes my living at photography, I respect those who do make a living at it, and I price things hopefully in the ballpark of what a professional would for fine, nature prints. If people find value in our work, they'll pay for it.
Having said that, you mentioned posters. Posters may be a great avenue because they can be produced cheaper and therefore sold at a lower price. You're paying a lower price because a poster is not intented for long time archivability and posters are great for college dorm rooms, but not necessarily framed hanging above your fireplace or in a 5star hotel lobby.
6. Lastly, if you do end up implementing something along these lines, I would recommend it be a completely different section of NPN and not just another gallery pull-down. Personally, I'd like to keep it separated from the raw commenting and participation in the various galleries and forums.
Anyway, just a few thoughts. Keep us posted.
Lon
I think everyone has listed some very good ideas throughout all the comments. I also think Lon's list has some excellent suggestions pulling some ideas from that list of comments. I feel #4 on Lon's list should hold the main theme for that selling area as well.
One additional thought might be to have the sellers showcase pages with just one special image each or on a slide show of several images from those who would like to sell their prints and posters, then hot link that one image(s) to the individuals portfolio or maybe even their personal web site. This would maybe cut down on the number of pages that a buyer would have to scroll through.
Anyway, just tossing out another idea in an attempt to streamline or help simplify it a bit.
I suggest that Photoportfolios.net be used as a vehicle for marketing and selling. I think it would be relatively simple to add fields as follows:
1. Types of products they offer, e.g. 'rights managed', prints, calendars, books, etc.
2. Print sizes available, if selling prints; hard cover/softcover if selling books, etc.
3. Pricing, if they to include this info
4. Contact information above and beyond the existing E-Mail link.
By doing it this way, another gallery does not have to be created and managed, overt advertising and competition on the main NPN site is kept to a minimum, and each photographer will have the responsibility to maintain their portfolio as it is already being done.
I know I haven't been around much lately--just lots of stuff going on. However, the suggestion to have selling within NPN simply doesn't feel right to me.
Kind regards,
-P.
Your idea of providing more value to subscribers is good, but the maketing and sales should not be on the main NPN site.
Some modification of Portfolios.Net would seem to be the most logical venue.
Keep NPN as it is. The marketing of photos and the selling thereof should be on one's own turf (read website). NPN is about sharing and learning, open this can of worms and it will get messy around here like it did before. Giving us the opportunity to list our websites, blogs, and workshops is all we really need. If a person likes what they see in the forums they have ample means to get to the web page where they can buy a print or a poster from us if we are in the business of selling.
Now Benjamin Glatt has a cool idea but very costly.
-P