There's a discussion on RAW vs DNG lower down, I know, but I figured this would get read more as a new post.
This is less of a discussion, more of an announcement, but if you ever want to submit images to the wildlife photographer of the year competition, then you don't want to be converting your files to DNG (unless you embed the original raw.. increasing the size of course). I just learned that the hard way, and it seems very likely that most of my entries will be rejected on that (in my opinion ridiculous) basis. They want the original RAW, and will only take DNG if that's what your camera naturally shoots in.
Well, this will be an interesting discussion, no doubt.
Floris, the title of the thread certainly is arresting, but I'm left wondering how many other contests will only accept RAW, and if there are some other contests with the same restriction, whether it matters to the vast run of nature photographers who aren't interested in contests.
And, lastly, whether such a restriction will last.
On a practical workflow note, when I convert RAW to DNG (which I have to do with some camera models before my older Photoshop CS2 or other programs will read the files), I never overwrite my original RAW file, so I'll always have it. That makes the issue moot. Backup memory is cheap!
Actually... if you shoot jpeg they will accept your 'original jpeg as captured by the camera'...
But if you convert from one raw format to what adobe would like to make the official open raw format (which I support), tough luck. I'll be uploading my DNG's anyways, and maybe they'll change their mind. But yes, I agree, it's a rather silly rule. They still get to see your unedited 'negative', so what's the big deal?!
What's the difference between an unedited RAW file and an unedited DNG file other than format?? I would say their request is based on a lack of understanding of the various file formats.
Based on a discussion with Joe McDonald in early 2008, he found that you can alter the photo in PS then reconvert the altered photo into a DNG file quite easily. If I remember his comments correctly! Not sure if that was the proper order of how he did it when he was experimenting with this very scenario of contests vs dng files, since we're talking more than a few weeks ago and my memory may not be perfect. But I definitely remember he said it was possible to submit an image that has been altered as a new dng file!
hmm.. Seems you're right Don, you can save any old file as a DNG from the ACR window. Well, I guess DNG is not what it claims to be: a digital negative. No more DNG for me. (I see no reason to store both, when the raw will serve me just fine, and why embed the original raw in the DNG and take up twice as much space? I have enough hard drives floating around as it is... I don't want twice as many!)
The contest rules would make sense to me except that they also accept JPGs. So a DNG might be altered but they trust you to submit "original" JPGs? And if your camera can shoot DNG, they'll accept one and trust you not to have altered it?
I realize it's hard on major competitions to enforce anti-fraud rules anymore, but it would be nice if they were at least consistent.
Floris, I think your frustration is well placed but your conclusion is incorrect. This thread should have been titled: "Don't enter competitions with draconian rules!"
Competition organizers are free to make whatever misguided demands they want. As photographers sometimes we need to vote with our feet. A standardized raw format is a good direction for photographers. If this competition diminishes its value, we should avoid submitting.
I'll disagree with everyone. It seems like the intent of the rule is to have the photographers submit an unaltered, original file as it came out of the camera. They allow JPEGS because not all cameras shoot RAW. In fact if you shot film and had to scan the image you would not be able to produce a RAW file either. Not sure how this is a draconian rule, especially if it is true you can alter DNG files. And yes, you can alter JPEGS, but if your camera only shoots JPEG then that's all you have. To not allow JPEGS could "disqualify" a number of people. Granted "most" people submitting to such a contest would probably have a camera that shoots RAW. But I remember seeing a TV show on the shooting of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition and one of the professional photographers hired by SI did an entire shoot in Las Vegas with nothing but a point and shoot camera.
Scott, disqualifying my images because they were converted to DNG on import is no different from saying that anyone who shoots jpeg can't enter the competition.
Heck, if I was a less honest person I'd convert my DNG's to jpeg, alter the date/time/camera info, and pass it off as an out of camera jpeg and no one would be the wiser. So.. in effect, what they are doing is causing honest people like me a lot of trouble, and creating a false sense of security for themselves that all the images they accept are honest to the medium of "straight photography".
Accepting JPG and rejecting DNG is like closing a window when your front door is missing. Besides, some cameras produce DNG natively, some raw formats (like NEF) can be altered and re-saved. One way or another you are disqualifying someone for completely arbitrary reasons.
If the intent is to prove the image was unaltered, well... it's bits of digital data. Unless the camera can sign them digitally at the point of creation there is no real way to guarantee it. Make participants sign an agreement (and good luck defining what "altered" means,) impose penalties on those who violate the rules, and that's about all you can do.
This approach simply says the organizers are not quite familiar with photographic and computer technology which, when you think about it, is a little embarrassing for a competition of this type.
This approach simply says the organizers are not quite familiar with photographic and computer technology which, when you think about it, is a little embarrassing for a competition of this type.
I agree with the frustation, because(another frustration) I have cs3 and a 5d2. So I also have to convert to DNG. Its a small extra step but I convert as needed to dng with Photomechanic and then when im done, delete the dng, always keeping the original raw. Its easy in Photomechanic bc you can sort by file type.
I agree with the majority general conclusion here. I don't know how the Contest monitors can ensure that they are getting an unaltered original. Too bad we cannot just trust people's to exercise integrity.
What I find perplexing, though, Floris is your comment (if I understood it correctly) that because you can alter DNG, "no more DNG for me." Hmn. Just because you CAN alter it, it doesn't follow for me that you shouldn't use it. That seems a little unfair to Adobe. I don't think they have ever said that format was the equivalent of a film negative. Indeed, it seems obvious to me that if you are "converting" your native RAW file to DNG, that it clearly is not. I will confess that I have been a DNG convert (pun intended) for a couple years now. I always embed the native file though (the contest rules is another good reason why). I agree with Guy that a standard file is something good for us to work toward. Whether we will ever get there is--of course--another thing.
wildlife photographer of the year >>>
What nobody seems to have noticed is - one of your entries has reached the final round this year. Congratulations. I hope they accept the DNG and you get selected.
Of the 11 of my images that made it on (plantlife, and 10 for a portfolio kind of award), for 8 of them I have the .CR2. They only pick 5 for the portfolio, so I still have a good shot at that. I sent them an email explaining how providing a DNG that was converted upon downloading the CR2 follows the 'spirit of their rules', but they're not having that. I wish people who actually understood photography made the rules. Or that they would recognize that their rules are crap and make judicious exceptions.
Discussion
19 repliesThis is less of a discussion, more of an announcement, but if you ever want to submit images to the wildlife photographer of the year competition, then you don't want to be converting your files to DNG (unless you embed the original raw.. increasing the size of course). I just learned that the hard way, and it seems very likely that most of my entries will be rejected on that (in my opinion ridiculous) basis. They want the original RAW, and will only take DNG if that's what your camera naturally shoots in.
Floris, the title of the thread certainly is arresting, but I'm left wondering how many other contests will only accept RAW, and if there are some other contests with the same restriction, whether it matters to the vast run of nature photographers who aren't interested in contests.
And, lastly, whether such a restriction will last.
On a practical workflow note, when I convert RAW to DNG (which I have to do with some camera models before my older Photoshop CS2 or other programs will read the files), I never overwrite my original RAW file, so I'll always have it. That makes the issue moot. Backup memory is cheap!
What a stupid rule. The problem is not DNG. The problem is the contest rules.
Pete D.
But if you convert from one raw format to what adobe would like to make the official open raw format (which I support), tough luck. I'll be uploading my DNG's anyways, and maybe they'll change their mind. But yes, I agree, it's a rather silly rule. They still get to see your unedited 'negative', so what's the big deal?!
I realize it's hard on major competitions to enforce anti-fraud rules anymore, but it would be nice if they were at least consistent.
I couldn't agree more, and David summed up the peculiarities nicely.
You guys wanna contact the BBC and convince them to allow my DNGs?
Competition organizers are free to make whatever misguided demands they want. As photographers sometimes we need to vote with our feet. A standardized raw format is a good direction for photographers. If this competition diminishes its value, we should avoid submitting.
Guy
Heck, if I was a less honest person I'd convert my DNG's to jpeg, alter the date/time/camera info, and pass it off as an out of camera jpeg and no one would be the wiser. So.. in effect, what they are doing is causing honest people like me a lot of trouble, and creating a false sense of security for themselves that all the images they accept are honest to the medium of "straight photography".
If the intent is to prove the image was unaltered, well... it's bits of digital data. Unless the camera can sign them digitally at the point of creation there is no real way to guarantee it. Make participants sign an agreement (and good luck defining what "altered" means,) impose penalties on those who violate the rules, and that's about all you can do.
This approach simply says the organizers are not quite familiar with photographic and computer technology which, when you think about it, is a little embarrassing for a competition of this type.
Guy
+1
What I find perplexing, though, Floris is your comment (if I understood it correctly) that because you can alter DNG, "no more DNG for me." Hmn. Just because you CAN alter it, it doesn't follow for me that you shouldn't use it. That seems a little unfair to Adobe. I don't think they have ever said that format was the equivalent of a film negative. Indeed, it seems obvious to me that if you are "converting" your native RAW file to DNG, that it clearly is not. I will confess that I have been a DNG convert (pun intended) for a couple years now. I always embed the native file though (the contest rules is another good reason why). I agree with Guy that a standard file is something good for us to work toward. Whether we will ever get there is--of course--another thing.
What nobody seems to have noticed is - one of your entries has reached the final round this year. Congratulations. I hope they accept the DNG and you get selected.
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/whats-on/temporary-exhibitions/wpy/
Of the 11 of my images that made it on (plantlife, and 10 for a portfolio kind of award), for 8 of them I have the .CR2. They only pick 5 for the portfolio, so I still have a good shot at that. I sent them an email explaining how providing a DNG that was converted upon downloading the CR2 follows the 'spirit of their rules', but they're not having that. I wish people who actually understood photography made the rules. Or that they would recognize that their rules are crap and make judicious exceptions.