As you all know I don't do black and white, but I'm trying. Here are three images from my recent trip to the Moab area. I'm not sure what to think about them. Do the compositions work, is the BW done correctly? Your thoughts would be much appreciated!
This first image is from Arches and the other two are from Fisher Towers.
The conversions look great to me Erik, all have a nice range of tones. I like the comp and the light on #2 the best with #3 not far behind. The comp is very nice on the first one too. For someone who "doesn't do black and white" these are really good.
There is no 'correct' way to do B&W to my knowlege. But ill give you my opinion anyways. From a compositional standpoint, I think #1 is great. #2 is OK but its pretty straight-forward, the centered comp is a bit uninspiring. The higlites seem a little uneven to me in #2. I think the conversion is best in #3, but the comp is a bit rhs heavy. Its still pretty nice though. I think #1 has the most potential, my only thought is that im not sure about the sky, theres a pretty strong gradient from the horizon to the top, from fairly bright to near black. I think if you can get the kind of sky in either 2 or 3 going in #1, then that would be a real strong shot.
Erik, I find the highlights rather harsh and lacking in detail, especially in #2.
Posted by Barry Bailey on May 10, 2009 at 12:42 AM
Hi Erik,
It's been a while since we've talked. Nice to see you trying out B&W!
I think you did as good as the conditions allowed in harsh mid-day sun. The "Three Gossips" shot #1 is my favorite. It has a nice balanced feel and uses B&W's best attribute of showing off the textures of the foreground soil. The driftwood also leads your eye into the picture to the background elements of the "Three Gossips" and the rock formation on the right. The harsh/contrasty light does make it difficult to capture smooth light gradients, but it looks like you maintained some shadow detail in the darkest areas of the image. I believe Ansel would have given you a solid B+...
I saw some of your coastal work lately and was impressed with your one with the ocean and the sea urchin or star fish in the foreground. If I get out of Fort Collins this week I'd like to stop by and see some more of it.
It's been a while since we've talked. Nice to see you trying out B&W!
I think you did as good as the conditions allowed in harsh mid-day sun. The "Three Gossips" shot #1 is my favorite. It has a nice balanced feel and uses B&W's best attribute of showing off the textures of the foreground soil. The driftwood also leads your eye into the picture to the background elements of the "Three Gossips" and the rock formation on the right. The harsh/contrasty light does make it difficult to capture smooth light gradients, but it looks like you maintained some shadow detail in the darkest areas of the image. I believe Ansel would have given you a solid B+...
I saw some of your coastal work lately and was impressed with your one with the ocean and the sea urchin or star fish in the foreground. If I get out of Fort Collins this week I'd like to stop by and see some more of it.
I think you did as good as the conditions allowed in harsh mid-day sun.
This pretty much sums up my feelings here. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, is it?
Stan's thoughts also reflect my own regarding #1, which is my favorite of the lot. The b&w conversion is spot on. An excellent composition, with the shadows of the foreground objects making it work so well for me.
I'm no b&w connoisseur myself, but I do think the comp in #1 lends itself best to the starkness you are trying to portrait. Of the last two I like the comp in #2 better as doing anything but centering that spire seems to throw things out of balance. As mentioned earlier, I'd maybe tone down the bright areas in that one. I did that Fisher Towers hike earlier this week for the first time myself. It's really an amazing area when seen up close!
I can't comment on the conversions as I've never done a B&W conversion myself. The three gossips and courthouse are strong images in themselves and I prefer to see them dominate the composition more.
Putting aside the conversion aspect, I noticed some time ago that you have a certain style that I really like, and it's apparent in shots like this, where you're taken out of your normal element and put somewhere completely different from Rocky. That's a strength, in my book!
Midday light is supposedly not to be avoided when shooting b&w, so that doesn't bother me at all. It's all about tones, which you've captured well in these.
I like the comp on #1 the best also. I'm no expert on exposure but it looks a bit overexposed to me. The highlighted surfaces on the 2 rocks on the left haven't any detail and while there is some detail in the shadows there aren't any true blacks either. Then again the light may have exceeded the exposure latitude of the sensor. I seem to have a lot of "experience" in doing this myself.
I like the 1st one the best...the comp, the lighting, and the highlights don't seem as harsh in this one. There seems to be, however, more demarcation in the sky in this one from real dark to real light...as stan said, if the sky looked like it does in # 2 & 3, it would be better. I'm no expert at B&W, though. But I still like # 1 the best, although I think you did a really nice job with all for not one that does B&W that much.
Erik, your bw work is looking good! A few thoughts:
#1 - the conversion looks pretty decent but you're losing some of the depth ("dimensionality"?) of the individual elements in the frame. My eye first goes to the larger rock to the middle left; the front face of it seems to be lacking depth and detail. Same with the large branch. You might see if you can tweak the grayscale conversion settings to bring out more of the midtones on those to provide more relief. Otherwise maybe some subtle dodging and burning could bring them back to their full 3D look. I agree with the other comments; nice comp on this one.... maybe just a bit complicated, if anything. Might be stronger with fewer points of interest: ie. "what's it a picture of?"
#2 - the strongest point of this is that it really emphasizes the subject. There is no question about your intent and the main subject, which is quite interesting. The form and texture of the main spire really make a strong statement. And I like the bw conversion here; looks like a wide range of tones, appropriately placed. However, overall the comp doesn't work for me. Seems unbalanced, too centered maybe? And the wide angle distortion really distracts my eye to the background elements in the left side of the frame. Finally, the bush. That bush somehow seems to steal the show and I can't help but wish it just wasn't there. Again, maybe too much going on for this particular comp.
#3 - really glad to see the bush out of the way, but the distortion really bothers me. The weakest of the bunch... when it could have been the strongest. I get the sense that by this time shooting you were homing in on the meat of the subject. The comp looks good, the balance of elements and tones is nice, but the pinching effect just kills it. A tilt/shift lens could have really made this work. Also, the empty sky doesn't quite work. "Negative space" is essential, especially in bw work, but this is just empty. Negative space needs to be either contained or balanced by stronger, "positive" elements, which in this case would be either significantly lighter or darker than the background sky. Try not to leave large spaces of the frame uninteresting, unless that's the point. (make sense?) The eye seems to fall into them with not much hope for escape.
I really love to see that you're pursuing more bw work and I think you have a very natural aptitude for it. In my opinion strong black and white images need to be really simple or really detailed, not much in between. Consider this - we see in color. Removing the color element removes a large portion of the visual clues that we perceive when looking at an image. It's immediately surreal, and takes investigation to understand. This process of discovery should be fun, and rewarding, not strenuous. Strong bw images must have immediate impact, whether simple or complex comps. This is where the technical aspects of perspective, depth of field, tonal range etc. really are essential.
All this being said, I must clarify that in no way do I consider myself an expert bw photographer. But I want to be someday.... and not to hijack your thread in any way, but if you want to see some of my bw work, if only to see illustrations of what I'm trying to describe above, you can visit these collections on my site:
Discussion
17 repliesThis first image is from Arches and the other two are from Fisher Towers.
It's been a while since we've talked. Nice to see you trying out B&W!
I think you did as good as the conditions allowed in harsh mid-day sun. The "Three Gossips" shot #1 is my favorite. It has a nice balanced feel and uses B&W's best attribute of showing off the textures of the foreground soil. The driftwood also leads your eye into the picture to the background elements of the "Three Gossips" and the rock formation on the right. The harsh/contrasty light does make it difficult to capture smooth light gradients, but it looks like you maintained some shadow detail in the darkest areas of the image. I believe Ansel would have given you a solid B+...
I saw some of your coastal work lately and was impressed with your one with the ocean and the sea urchin or star fish in the foreground. If I get out of Fort Collins this week I'd like to stop by and see some more of it.
Take care,
Barry
www.barrybaileyphotography.com
It's been a while since we've talked. Nice to see you trying out B&W!
I think you did as good as the conditions allowed in harsh mid-day sun. The "Three Gossips" shot #1 is my favorite. It has a nice balanced feel and uses B&W's best attribute of showing off the textures of the foreground soil. The driftwood also leads your eye into the picture to the background elements of the "Three Gossips" and the rock formation on the right. The harsh/contrasty light does make it difficult to capture smooth light gradients, but it looks like you maintained some shadow detail in the darkest areas of the image. I believe Ansel would have given you a solid B+...
I saw some of your coastal work lately and was impressed with your one with the ocean and the sea urchin or star fish in the foreground. If I get out of Fort Collins this week I'd like to stop by and see some more of it.
Take care,
Barry
www.barrybaileyphotography.com
This pretty much sums up my feelings here. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, is it?
Stan's thoughts also reflect my own regarding #1, which is my favorite of the lot. The b&w conversion is spot on. An excellent composition, with the shadows of the foreground objects making it work so well for me.
I can't comment on the conversions as I've never done a B&W conversion myself. The three gossips and courthouse are strong images in themselves and I prefer to see them dominate the composition more.
Midday light is supposedly not to be avoided when shooting b&w, so that doesn't bother me at all. It's all about tones, which you've captured well in these.
#1 - the conversion looks pretty decent but you're losing some of the depth ("dimensionality"?) of the individual elements in the frame. My eye first goes to the larger rock to the middle left; the front face of it seems to be lacking depth and detail. Same with the large branch. You might see if you can tweak the grayscale conversion settings to bring out more of the midtones on those to provide more relief. Otherwise maybe some subtle dodging and burning could bring them back to their full 3D look. I agree with the other comments; nice comp on this one.... maybe just a bit complicated, if anything. Might be stronger with fewer points of interest: ie. "what's it a picture of?"
#2 - the strongest point of this is that it really emphasizes the subject. There is no question about your intent and the main subject, which is quite interesting. The form and texture of the main spire really make a strong statement. And I like the bw conversion here; looks like a wide range of tones, appropriately placed. However, overall the comp doesn't work for me. Seems unbalanced, too centered maybe? And the wide angle distortion really distracts my eye to the background elements in the left side of the frame. Finally, the bush. That bush somehow seems to steal the show and I can't help but wish it just wasn't there. Again, maybe too much going on for this particular comp.
#3 - really glad to see the bush out of the way, but the distortion really bothers me. The weakest of the bunch... when it could have been the strongest. I get the sense that by this time shooting you were homing in on the meat of the subject. The comp looks good, the balance of elements and tones is nice, but the pinching effect just kills it. A tilt/shift lens could have really made this work. Also, the empty sky doesn't quite work. "Negative space" is essential, especially in bw work, but this is just empty. Negative space needs to be either contained or balanced by stronger, "positive" elements, which in this case would be either significantly lighter or darker than the background sky. Try not to leave large spaces of the frame uninteresting, unless that's the point. (make sense?) The eye seems to fall into them with not much hope for escape.
I really love to see that you're pursuing more bw work and I think you have a very natural aptitude for it. In my opinion strong black and white images need to be really simple or really detailed, not much in between. Consider this - we see in color. Removing the color element removes a large portion of the visual clues that we perceive when looking at an image. It's immediately surreal, and takes investigation to understand. This process of discovery should be fun, and rewarding, not strenuous. Strong bw images must have immediate impact, whether simple or complex comps. This is where the technical aspects of perspective, depth of field, tonal range etc. really are essential.
All this being said, I must clarify that in no way do I consider myself an expert bw photographer. But I want to be someday.... and not to hijack your thread in any way, but if you want to see some of my bw work, if only to see illustrations of what I'm trying to describe above, you can visit these collections on my site:
http://natcoalson.com/photographs/bw_1/index.html
http://natcoalson.com/photographs/13palms/index.html
http://natcoalson.com/photographs/racetrack/index.html
There's also individual bw work in most of my collections; obviously some comps/subjects work better than others.
Keep it up! Can't wait to see more...