I'd like to see it so you have to leave a comment before you can read the other comments. This would for one create more comments, and more importantly stop all the ditto headed comments.
I think a lot of people read the other comments first. Personally I don't do that because I don't want my comments prejudiced by the thoughts of others.
There are a lot of lurkers who would be very disappointed if they could not read the comments and learn from them.
Fewer people would likely comment on images if that rule were implemented. Some might possibly feel forced to comment, rather than to be able to freely comment when they desire.
Some times I do read other comments before I comment, and quite often that prevents me from beating a dead horse to death. Then some times some one might say exactly what I would say, so I say I agree with their critique, or even ditto it. A ditto is an affirmation and it is not always an empy-headed comment.
Then other times I don't read what any one else has said before I comment.
I can not comment on every image, but if you check my ratio, it is pretty high. My point in saying that though is that is just me, I feel that by giving critiques I learn a great deal about self critiquing. Some one else might feel they only want to comment on 5 images per post but learn many lessons from what other people are saying.
So while I believe your idea has merit, I don't think it is a good idea. Just my lowly opinion of course.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on June 13, 2009 at 10:26 PM
I understand that a lot of your suggestion comes from there being a rather low ratio between the nunber of views and the number of comments. That, it seems, is inherent in amy forum such as this.
Why? I believe that there re several valid reasons for this. First (and this being the primary reason I tend to disagree with your suggestion) is that there are a lot of new photographers who visit this site. A lot of them, and I would have put myself in this category many years ago when this site first started, don't feel that they can constructively critique the image. If you are just learning the basics, it is pretty tough to analyze an image that breaks all the rules and yet works. Other than a "nice shot", they may be intimidated to give a longer reply.
Which brings me to my second reason. There are a lot of images I see here of high quality or are from new photographers that just don't inspire me to comment. There is nothing wrong with the image but at the same time, nothing I can really put my finger on and say "this is what I would have done differently. I shoot semi-professionally and still find a lot of the critiques useful to be able to identify the reasons I am pretty neutral about a particular image.
Last, with respect to a couple of select top photographers such as Guy Tal and Marc Adamus, I really don't see any reason to add a further comment after 19 "great shot!" They are good and we all know it and sometimes the comments go places that can be enlightening for the rest of us. I'd hate to lose that.
So what do we do to encourage more replies? I don't know. This thread comes up in some form every 5-7 weeks. I thnk that in that respect, it is a good thing. WE can remind people to add their thoughts regarding an image.
For new photographers, simply writing their reaction to an image and the reasons for it can be a good learning exercise. Do it often enough and composition, lighting and exposure begin to become internalized and your shooting will improve. You may not know why, but you'll see progress. It is probably as good as being out in the field shooting but now you jave several brains to pick rather than just your own.
Doug, thanks for starting this thread. We do need to be reminded occasionally to post comments.
Posted by Peter Barnes on June 14, 2009 at 2:17 AM
As someone new to Nature Photographers, and relatively new to taking my photography seriously, there are many times that I want to read the comments for what I can learn from them, but don't want to post one of my own. Why? See Dan's post above: What I have to say has already been said several times or I haven't anything constructive to add. But that shouldn't prevent me from seeing what others have written. I like how it is now - if I have something to say I can write that before reading other comments, if I want. Otherwise I can read what is already posted and then decide if I have anything useful to add.
Doug, to your point this is why we placed the comment box at the top of the response thread in the IC galleries. If anyone does not want to read the comments already posted, they don't even have to come into view - just scroll down far enough to use the comment box.
In the discussion forums, we place the comment box at the end of the thread, to encourage people to follow the conversation and pick up where the last comment left off.
In the end, no software feature or mechanism is going to get anyone to participate any differently in this regard - at least not in any genuine sense. Your idea and suggestion is nonetheless appreciated!
Posted by Jim Bullard on June 14, 2009 at 10:21 AM
I read the comments first to see if what I would say has already been said. If it has I don't comment unless I have something more to add.
Doug, I thought about ways to elicit more comments in the past but always come to the same conclusion: forced comments are not very useful. If someone feels they have to post a half-hearted note because they want to see what others had to say, that comment will probably not be very useful to the photographer.
Voluntary critique, whatever it happens to be, is more meaningful and it's really not a big deal for the poster to sift through and filter the ones they find most useful.
I feel that we should have the option to read other's comments before- or whenever we choose. I learn from other's comments often, and sometimes will disagree with less positive critique I have read. .
It also took me a good while to feel i had enough skill or talent to start to comment and offer crtiques. (That's why my post-to-comment ratio is high).
Now, that you all have helped me learn and grown, i can pass that on.
sandy r
Posted by Richard Ditch on June 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM
I like the current format and don't think forcing anyone to comment first before reading other comments has any merit or will lead to more useful comments on any image.
1. I form my impressions of an image and my intended reply from looking at the image irrespective of what others have already said.
2. I like to read what others have already said before I write my response: that can save me time in composing my response and eliminate redundancy for other readers.
3. I occasionally use "ditto what X said" when X has covered what I intended to do.
4. frankly, I resent the implications in your phrase "ditto headed comments" as that implies I'm a follower of Rush Windbag.
5. sometimes I include a response to someone's else's comment: an expansion of a point; a clarification; or a counter statement when I don't agree. I couldn't do that it I couldn't read the comments in advance.
6. I see nothing wrong with a "great shot" comment on a Great Shot that has already received lots of "great shot" comments. Anybody who does good work deserves praise and I don't see the wisdom in holding back just because other people have already given praise.
7. Finally, "ditto" Lia, Dan, Peter, Guy, Judith, and Sandy.
Ditto to Richard, Lia, Dan, Peter, Guy, Judith and Sandy.
There shouldn't be obstacles to learning.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on June 14, 2009 at 10:01 PM
Richard -
With regards to #6, a least for me, a lot of it depends on who posted the image. For someone whose name I don't recognize if I am browsing the image galleries, especially if they are new, I do make the "great shot" comment. I do not believe that many of the older members here really need my encouragement to keep posting - they are committed to this in the long run. On a very rare occasion I may post "great shot" to Guy or Marc or a few others at that level in the other galleries, but that is because even by their standards they are posting an exceptional image.
On the other hand, for newer photographers, I'll try to post the "great shot" comment if the image deserves it. I understand how hard it is to start here. I lurked for the first six months this site was up before posting even one comment, and it was about 18 months before my first image went up. Why? I'll be the first one to admit that I am a bit of a chicken. Here I am putting images that I liked up for the rest of the world to see and I only owned a camera for about a year (yes, that timeline is right). Are people going to like them? Am I missing something with the photo? What am I doing... The early feedback I got, even just the encouragement from so-so images. really helped.
I should add that I'm a teacher at heart and I'd rather put my efforts towards those who can benefit the most from my posts. I'm not really disagreeig with your comment, just coming from a different viewpoint.
While I agree that commenting should be entirely voluntary, and that it may not be valid if forced, I do wish some commented more. I wonder if it should be a voluntary commitment from all of us to comment on the previous 5 posts, at least when we post ourselves or as we have time. There are a few who post here who seem to possibly think it is just a market for them to display their photos. That judging from their comment to post ratio. I have had a lot of time on my hands, so I spend too much of it posting comments, and I know other's time is more limited.
But a 5 to 1 ratio is a basic commitment to the forum in my mind. The word forum in it's usage here implies discussion, and that comes in the form of comments from us.
Discussion
13 repliesI think a lot of people read the other comments first. Personally I don't do that because I don't want my comments prejudiced by the thoughts of others.
Anyone thing this is a good idea?
There are a lot of lurkers who would be very disappointed if they could not read the comments and learn from them.
Fewer people would likely comment on images if that rule were implemented. Some might possibly feel forced to comment, rather than to be able to freely comment when they desire.
Some times I do read other comments before I comment, and quite often that prevents me from beating a dead horse to death. Then some times some one might say exactly what I would say, so I say I agree with their critique, or even ditto it. A ditto is an affirmation and it is not always an empy-headed comment.
Then other times I don't read what any one else has said before I comment.
I can not comment on every image, but if you check my ratio, it is pretty high. My point in saying that though is that is just me, I feel that by giving critiques I learn a great deal about self critiquing. Some one else might feel they only want to comment on 5 images per post but learn many lessons from what other people are saying.
So while I believe your idea has merit, I don't think it is a good idea. Just my lowly opinion of course.
Why? I believe that there re several valid reasons for this. First (and this being the primary reason I tend to disagree with your suggestion) is that there are a lot of new photographers who visit this site. A lot of them, and I would have put myself in this category many years ago when this site first started, don't feel that they can constructively critique the image. If you are just learning the basics, it is pretty tough to analyze an image that breaks all the rules and yet works. Other than a "nice shot", they may be intimidated to give a longer reply.
Which brings me to my second reason. There are a lot of images I see here of high quality or are from new photographers that just don't inspire me to comment. There is nothing wrong with the image but at the same time, nothing I can really put my finger on and say "this is what I would have done differently. I shoot semi-professionally and still find a lot of the critiques useful to be able to identify the reasons I am pretty neutral about a particular image.
Last, with respect to a couple of select top photographers such as Guy Tal and Marc Adamus, I really don't see any reason to add a further comment after 19 "great shot!" They are good and we all know it and sometimes the comments go places that can be enlightening for the rest of us. I'd hate to lose that.
So what do we do to encourage more replies? I don't know. This thread comes up in some form every 5-7 weeks. I thnk that in that respect, it is a good thing. WE can remind people to add their thoughts regarding an image.
For new photographers, simply writing their reaction to an image and the reasons for it can be a good learning exercise. Do it often enough and composition, lighting and exposure begin to become internalized and your shooting will improve. You may not know why, but you'll see progress. It is probably as good as being out in the field shooting but now you jave several brains to pick rather than just your own.
Doug, thanks for starting this thread. We do need to be reminded occasionally to post comments.
In the discussion forums, we place the comment box at the end of the thread, to encourage people to follow the conversation and pick up where the last comment left off.
In the end, no software feature or mechanism is going to get anyone to participate any differently in this regard - at least not in any genuine sense. Your idea and suggestion is nonetheless appreciated!
Doug, I thought about ways to elicit more comments in the past but always come to the same conclusion: forced comments are not very useful. If someone feels they have to post a half-hearted note because they want to see what others had to say, that comment will probably not be very useful to the photographer.
Voluntary critique, whatever it happens to be, is more meaningful and it's really not a big deal for the poster to sift through and filter the ones they find most useful.
Guy
And, after all, we do not have to comment on every image.
Judith
It also took me a good while to feel i had enough skill or talent to start to comment and offer crtiques. (That's why my post-to-comment ratio is high).
Now, that you all have helped me learn and grown, i can pass that on.
sandy r
1. I form my impressions of an image and my intended reply from looking at the image irrespective of what others have already said.
2. I like to read what others have already said before I write my response: that can save me time in composing my response and eliminate redundancy for other readers.
3. I occasionally use "ditto what X said" when X has covered what I intended to do.
4. frankly, I resent the implications in your phrase "ditto headed comments" as that implies I'm a follower of Rush Windbag.
5. sometimes I include a response to someone's else's comment: an expansion of a point; a clarification; or a counter statement when I don't agree. I couldn't do that it I couldn't read the comments in advance.
6. I see nothing wrong with a "great shot" comment on a Great Shot that has already received lots of "great shot" comments. Anybody who does good work deserves praise and I don't see the wisdom in holding back just because other people have already given praise.
7. Finally, "ditto" Lia, Dan, Peter, Guy, Judith, and Sandy.
There shouldn't be obstacles to learning.
With regards to #6, a least for me, a lot of it depends on who posted the image. For someone whose name I don't recognize if I am browsing the image galleries, especially if they are new, I do make the "great shot" comment. I do not believe that many of the older members here really need my encouragement to keep posting - they are committed to this in the long run. On a very rare occasion I may post "great shot" to Guy or Marc or a few others at that level in the other galleries, but that is because even by their standards they are posting an exceptional image.
On the other hand, for newer photographers, I'll try to post the "great shot" comment if the image deserves it. I understand how hard it is to start here. I lurked for the first six months this site was up before posting even one comment, and it was about 18 months before my first image went up. Why? I'll be the first one to admit that I am a bit of a chicken. Here I am putting images that I liked up for the rest of the world to see and I only owned a camera for about a year (yes, that timeline is right). Are people going to like them? Am I missing something with the photo? What am I doing... The early feedback I got, even just the encouragement from so-so images. really helped.
I should add that I'm a teacher at heart and I'd rather put my efforts towards those who can benefit the most from my posts. I'm not really disagreeig with your comment, just coming from a different viewpoint.
But a 5 to 1 ratio is a basic commitment to the forum in my mind. The word forum in it's usage here implies discussion, and that comes in the form of comments from us.