Going back to Ray's post down the page a bit I was interested to see Graeme's and agree with some of what he says.
I think it's worth a deeper discussion, as its not as simple as it appears. I understood that the moderators some time back were going to look into the whole critique question and were going to steer away from the " Nice shot Bill " routine.
That's fine but I find it difficult to think of a way of implementing this. There are many shots coming up every day on this forum, where really it is hard to find anything really wrong apart from the odd twig up a birds bum or something. We have to go for the shot and that's the end of the story- if a better one was available then surely it would have been posted. I very often say "nice shot " etc purely because I think it is. Even though I don't like a picture it is sometimes hard to explain why.
I am sure others have views on this, but how it could be moderated is beyond me.
One could argue that the less comments made - the better the shot!
I have seen some cracking examples of pics posted on this forum that have hardly attained a mention, but have gone down a bomb on several other forums. It really must be quite off putting for a relative newcomer to post what he thinks is a great achievement and get little response because folks are scared of saying " Nice shot "
Come on - lets have some really honest views because I am sure most of you out there have them.
Oh - and thanks for the birthday wishes. I wish the 7 in front of the O was not a seven.
Cheers
JohnR
All very interesting and I am sure this is going to be a big debate having just scanned through Ray's last post. I don't really feel I can say much as I haven't been using the forum long. Maybe that is another thing, newbies feel a little intimidated with big names and members that have been posting on here for years. Lots of folks I have spoken to recently say "you post on UKNP, you're brave!!".
I feel I have learnt a huge amount from the forum in the last few months, not only from my posts, but mostly from reading tech details and comments on others. Having looked back through the years of images on here, I really don't see a huge difference in comments made, perhaps thats just me !
I agree John that there are some really superb images that hardly receive a comment. As soon as a big name posts a shot its as if the flood gates open and everybody thinks pheeeew, I can say "nice shot" on this one as 20 other people have too.
Others may not like writing a negative comment when there are already 5 "nice shot" comments, I guess it depends how confident the individual is in voicing their own true opinion. Some shots really don't have a lot wrong with them though, so what more can you say other than "nice shot"?
Thanks Lewis
At least some understands what i am trying to say !
Cheers
john
Posted by Barry Southon on June 24, 2009 at 10:28 PM
John
You're as old as you want to be and I have just stopped lying about my age the grandkids put a stop to it. 70 is not old these days think young and enjoy.
Now I'm really old and a slow learner. As a fairly new member of three years duration I was totally intimidated by the forum on one hand but found it inspiring on the other.
Inspired by the quality exhibited and obvious expertise demonstrated and apparent willingness to share knowledge that made the forum for me. Even the pro's I thought this was unique I thought you were all pro's.
I felt intimidated through my total lack of knowledge and refrained from commenting how could I comment I didn't know what the hell I was talking about?
I used the forum to try and access a mine of information and attempt to envoke debate. I posted my failures and drew on advice gleaned. I'm not on an ego trip I was never on that bus.
In my opinion the forum has changed in the last year or so and its not for the improvement clicks have manifested themselves take a look at the index factors.
I'm still convinced its a great forum but truly lacking in a progressive format. Perhaps a sub division could be considered where questions can be put that do envoke debate and can be from all levels of skills. I have learnt far more from debated subjects and what greater compliment can you have than to inspire others to push parameters. Long may the forum continue with perhaps the odd nudge.
I'll raise a glass to you this evening John happy birthday and thanks for your contributions
I think at times the number of comments on some posts is a little low but I don't see how mods can enforce this. Personally, I don't think there's much wrong with this forum, I like it a lot. Also, I've yet to be on a forum that was as good as it used to be
I don't think people should be afraid of simply posting 'nice shot' if that's what they think. It's true that sometimes it is not easy to offer constructive criticism, particularly if the shot is near perfect or if others have already mentioned the obvious nits. But I think the worse thing we can do to an image is ignore it - there's nothing worse than 150 views and 1or 2 comments.
I'm a "nice shot" fan, nothing worse than being ignored. We have a forum on our club website that's died a death as folk believe unless they can say something to help improve a pic they prefer to say nothing.
Good topic John. Its good to air things once in a while.
Agreed whole heartedly with Matts comments and would add also that there are still individuals who post and offer very little or no comments. I find that quite annoying.
Certain things were going to be changed as I understood it by the Mods but I see no alterartions so far.
I would have to say though if you keep things exactly the same for ever more eventually things will die. Thats why car manufacturers keep bringing out new models.
Major
Posted by Matt Doggett on June 25, 2009 at 4:24 AM
I have to say that I agree with the above posts. Although I don't post that regularly, when I do I try to add comments to around half a dozen other images or so. Sometimes these might only be along the lines of "great shot!" but I do this because either I am pushed for times or I know that I still apprecate these comments when others post them about my images. At least it lets the photpographer know they are doing a good job :)
Surely if we steer away from just being able to compliment others on this forum then it would make the whole thing seem very intimidating for others wanting to post if they don't see as many positive comments about others' shots?
Having read Ray's comments in the earlier thread then perhaps there is more need for constructive criticism and sharing of ideas, but perhaps sometimes the photographer wishes to retain some secrets for themselves? I wholly agree with the fact that comments like "shame about the OOF stick/grass" etc are not so helpful as it's not always possible to move these things out the way and perhaps we should be asking the photographers more about what they awere trying to achieve with an image? However, please don't stop those who just want to say "well done!"
Agree with Major. It seems like a lot of people are thinking the same thing but not airing their opinions.
This forum is for the benefit of everyone on it and I don't think that should ever change. However, what people find beneficial is very different.
When I joined, (relatively recently) I thought as Barry did: this is a fantastic resource allowing me to speak to other nature photographer, even pros, to get help(!) through constructive criticism.
I've come to learn that getting the most out of posting an image included giving a little information about why I posted it and what you are wanting the viewer to feel and understand. What makes the image special to you. I find it hard to comment on images that have only the exif data to describe what's going on.
If, after that effort, people still don't like it, that's fine but at least the context is there so viewers can advise on what could be done to achieve the desired story or share a similar experience if they have one.
Chris
Posted by Andy Astbury on June 25, 2009 at 5:03 AM
Belated Birthday Greetings John
As Matt says, moderator enforcement on the comment number side of things would be a difficult thing to administer; and from what I know of the mods ideology I don't think it's something they would even want to get involved with.
Reading through Rays original thread there seems to be a consensus of opinion in the replies that UKNPN is not what it was - and I must admit to agreeing with that ethos to a large degree - it isn't..
Time was when this forum was populated by images of a "high commercial standard" - well composed, well thought out images that where technically as near perfect as you could get. These images were posted by photographers who do actually make a living from commercial photography, and some that didn't and who just took them for the love of it.
Either way, the largest percentage of posted images were superb.
Other images appeared on the forum though, from photographers who wanted to learn how to "up their game" and produce images of that standard; the forum contributors duly proffered their help and assistance and everything in garden was rosy...
"If you can get pats on the back on UKNPN you know your standard is good..." was quite a common thing to hear.....something that was a bit unfair really, as it made the forum sound like some sort of ivory tower - which it wasn't; it was just a place where the majority knew what they were talking about, produced excellent quality images and were very helpful.
It was quite common for image "reworks" to be posted in replies in order to illustrate points of critique raised, or to illustrate a technique too; something I know proved very useful.
However, there was quite a large influx of new members some time ago, and suddenly there seemed to develop a certain amount of "cliquishness" on the forum - where some of these new members started sticking together and patting each other on the back with comments of "superb image" and the like - when the images clearly were not...
Offers of constructive criticism from established forum members were dutifully shot down by more comments of the "well it works fine for me" ilk - I remember doing a rework on an image myself and all hell broke loose - scathing email, the works!
Personally from that point on I have only really offered critique on images by posters I know will take it in the spirit in which it is offered, and it was around this time that there was a niticeable drop in postings and comments from forum stalwarts - folk like Graeme Lee for instance, who were the backbone of the forum.
I pick on Graeme because he's responded to Rays thread - I thought he'd fallen off the end of his 500mm - HELLO MATEY
Anyway, to get back to the point John raised in the first place, and from a personal standpoint, I don't offer as much critique anymore for the simple reason that I don't know how it will be received - seeing as this is a public forum it doesn't matter how accurate the critique is if afterwards there is one comment that derides said critique, then either the critiqu-er (is that a real word ) or the subsequent derider of the critique can look bad in the eyes of public....when you're in the business of teaching folk this is a bit of a risk to business, so I say nothing
It's the safest way....but does little or nothing to help either the original poster, (if indeed they wanted it) or the forum in general.
UKNPN is a critique forum - not a showcase.
Back in the old days everyone felt free to offer constructive critique without out-and-out contradiction - however now; and I know I'm not the only one, you really do have to think twice about it - the usual result is "no comment".
On the flip side of this, when I see an image that flicks all my switches what am I supposed to say other than ".. good strong image, great comp - nice one"????
Every image posted on this forum illicits a response from everyone who views it - I often wonder myself why I see flawless images get 50+ views and no comments - what ON EARTH are those 50 viewers thinking
Matt is absolutely right - ignoring an image on a forum such as this is wrong.
Just an idea but what about a simple 'badging' system - if someones ratio of pics/comments is 1>2 they get a picture of a grumpy looking Bustard, 1>5 a nice Avocet and 1 > 10 a Golden Eagle!
Just trying to think of ways to encourage more/better commenting - I don't want to leave the site for forums new particularly as I've seen it grow from years ago when it was even in the old format etc. - look at how the Ebay seller rating thing has worked..
Or maybe its a step too far? probably I guess
Posted by Andy Astbury on June 25, 2009 at 5:08 AM
What a good idea Mark - at 3606:195 what would I be I hate to think
Thank you all for your comments and insights both in this and on Ray's topic too - all points of view are welcomed & noted.
We are looking to improve the forums and how they work, and some work is in hand - although as the Mods have to earn their living elsewhere, putting a crust on the table has to take 1st priority and can sometimes mean things go slower than we would otherwise like.
The Mods will reply with our thoughts and views in due course .
One of my main issues is the comment ratio's on some of the shots, as Lewis says, if one of our more famous members posts an image the comments come flooding in, now I don't have a problem with this because the image in question is probably world class and probably as good as your going see anywhere, the problem I have is if 30+ people can take the time to comment on the said image why can't 30+ people take the time to comment on the images directly above and below, in most cases these images may only have between 3 and 6 comments, this must be very disheartening for the person who is just starting out in wildlife photography, imagine how encouraging it would be to the newbie if the 30+ offered their advice on improving your photography.
As a 'newcomer' I'm not sure if I'm qualified to comment on this or so many of the inspirational images I see here.However I'd like to address the reasons why people post here and not other sites . Many here do post at other sounding boards and most probably for differing reasons .My reason for posting here is probably selfish being that of advise and knowledge .But its a reason . The pool of knowledge and experience here is in my opinion not to be found anywhere else .Sure there are sites like Flickr and alike where ticks in boxes and gold stars are common but are you being 'judged' by your piers? We all like compliments and as said it lets you know if you are on the right track.But by the same token, for me even more importantly, if I'm doing it wrong.
I too have had the"you post on UKNP, you're brave!!". But if you don't ask you'll never know !
I find the site inspirational ,evocative and at times a hoot .I have met and exchanged banter with really terrific people here,testiment to the set up ,running and the sort of folks it attracts . Long may it continue.
As to the reported changes that have historically happened or are proposed all I can say is I like it the way it is .
I'm in the ' up their game camp' Disheartened ?Nah ! Encouraged and enlightened ?.Most definitely . I may not comment on all pictures or threads but this site like no other does inspire me to say sod tea I'm off out to spend 3hours with a tin of dog food wait in a hedge with brambles up my arse and see if by chance a fox may come wondering past me .If I have my whits about me I may just take the odd piccy or two.Cheers to John and Ray for the opportunity.
Padawan Mark
Ps.Lurkers? They are a fact !http://www.useit.com/alertbox/participation_inequality.html
I see relatively few complex and intelligent images here, where the photographer has done something edgy, is demonstrating real flair and talent, and trying to push the boundary a bit more by taking a risk with their images. When these images do appear - surprise surprise - they get substantial 'views' and relatively few 'comments' .
I've pondered over this and come to the conclusion that its simply a lack of experience and understanding, perhaps tinged with a slight element of fear - the images are complex and difficult to 'read' - but that doesn't mean they're not appreciated, and to be so bold and actually do so in print might elicit a mocking response. The truth is - an oof blade of grass is much easier to comment on - positively or negatively than the perceived emotional spiritual or intellectual content of an image, and those latter areas of consideration are perhaps waaaay outside many people's comfort zones for discussion on a public forum.
The best images I've seen on here in the last year have had many technical flaws, but my goodness were they stuffed full of emotion and atmosphere - and I commented on one this past week that deserved a real discussion on this forum, for many reasons, and sadly it elicited virtually no responses.
The last two images of foxes here, were one that was wild, here:
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=44342&CGISESSID=fc1135ef8aa445430aa4e413232b40a9&u=1667
viewed 218 times and eliciting 4 comments
and one that was captive, here:
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=44235&CGISESSID=fc1135ef8aa445430aa4e413232b40a9&u=1707
viewed 240 times, eliciting 8 comments
Now all credit to the two photographers for excellent images - but I'll say that my preference is for the wild fox - but I'll qualify that and say the ONLY fox image I have in my collection is a captive one (and its rubbish and nowhere near as good as the referenced fox!).
But whether wild or captive, whats really critical here, in my humble opinion, is that we have one image that IS a fox image - right in-your-face vulpes, and another totally different and much more edgy image that is an impression of a fox.
The captive fox is a lovely engaging portrait, technically well executed and the placement of the animal is for me right on in respect of the background tones and relative to the frame edge, and it grabs you and pulls you in. The wild fox is blurred almost beyond recognition, but not quite - it's retained enough foxiness to make this image work, and the vertical voyeuristic composition heightens the narrow opportunity to view it - both physically view it and emotionally and spiritually connect with it through your bleary eyes as you squint through the curtains on that winter night, wakened by the shrill yelp thats roused you.
Yet this latter wild sensuous and bold image only elicited half the comments of the captive fox. And that is a real pity.
The emotional/spiritual content of the image aside (all subjective, of course!), the wild fox author also commented on the imaging possibilities that digital afforded him - that the technology was so far advanced now that such images were actually POSSIBLE with relative ease - images that would have been incredibly difficult to obtain even a few years ago. This went unremarked upon.
Neither image is 'better' than the other, they are just differing interpretations of a single subject, and in all honesty the 'captive' status is pretty irrelevant - both of these images tested the abilities and equipment of the photographers concerned - both of whose work I admire.
But I think what this comparison might reveal is that only one of those images tested US, the critics and would-be emulators of boundary-breaking work, and I think we (collectively) failed the test!
To finish this ramble I'll quote Mark, above:
" As a 'newcomer' I'm not sure if I'm qualified to comment on this or so many of the inspirational images I see here."
Yes Mark, you are - that you deem some of the work 'inspirational' (or perhaps not!) is all the qualification you require.
I think that there are a number of points which are being overlooked, bit saying that, some of the following will have been touched on, and for that I apologise in advance.
So as the thoughts come to mind, then down they’ll go.
1. For every poster there is a different reason for posting, be it to gain information or for plaudits/showcasing.
2. For every lurker there is a different reason for visiting this site, be it only a wish to relieve the day to day boredom.
3. Not everyone is comfortable in admitting that they just don’t know something in public.
4. Not everyone is articulate when it comes to the written word. My wife is frequently asked by very intelligent people, where she works, to cobble together a letter for them. They say, I’ve written down the gist of what I want can you knock it into shape as you have a way with words.
5. You’re assuming that everyone knows what questions to ask, many don’t.
6. You are also assuming, that those who potentially might comment have what they personally consider to have a sufficient knowledge base, and not to look a fool when they comment, but to be constructive in what they say. Many don’t have this knowledge base, that is why they visit this site, TO LEARN.
7. Many posters don’t truly like criticism, I think Andy A raised this. I personally don’t comment on certain peoples work, purely for this reason. They say they can take it, but they can’t. But then again there are some who can, and do welcome a constructive and honest comment, but they can take some finding. If I’m in any doubt, I usually start with a phrase like “Please don’t take any offence …..”.
8. Yes, the site can be daunting, and this in itself can obviously can put people off. So make it more friendly and less clicky.
9. A lot of the time the information supplied by the poster can be very sketchy, comments like ”usual set-up”, there really is no such thing, is one example which comes to mind, and if that is the first time someone has viewed that posters work, where does this leave them ??
10. It is not unknown for derogatory remarks to be made about other peoples work/comments. This reflects badly, not only on the person who makes the comments, but also on the site as it sets a tone.
11. The majority don’t say where they are based, and I’m guilty here, although I’ve just corrected this. This has the advantage, that a viewer, can see if someone is local to themselves, with the intention of touching base with them.
12. Every persons opinion should be respected, and it isn’t. If someone takes the time to comments on my work, then I really appreciate it, even if it just “Nice one”, at least they have bothered.
13. When it comes to the numbers of people who comment on my work against those who just view it, it really doesn’t bother me , as I look at it from the point of view, that there are at least XXX number of people keeping track of my work.
From my recent post(s) I have learnt a lot, namely that there are some you can take to the pool of knowledge, but turn away, and others who will drink it dry. As a direct result of this, I have decided, that the best option is to provide the minimum information that I consider relevant to a constructive criticism, the more information you give, the more ammunition you give to others to be use against you, I haven’t got the time to go into detail to the enth degree, but saying that, I’ve added a postscript to my posts, saying that if anyone request further info., then they only have to ask, and I’ll do what I can.
There is hope here, but it is upto everyone to work at it.
The big question is "why do we post",surely the point is to receive critism be it positive or not and to learn from the feedback!There are many photographs on here that probably should'nt be posted because they are technicaly near perfect and the only critism is good,but if the photographer posts how he got the shot,the technical ins and outs and his thoughts behind the images surely this is a help to the up and coming photographers,a difficult subject I've posted a few out there shots which don't seem to get many views yet this is a route I like to follow,John M's comments hit the nail on the head,well put,the fox shot mentioned though captive is a well photographed individual and used to photographers but trying capture it in a different way was difficult,laying on the floor was an obvious choice giving a different view yet 18 other photographers were stood up taking the same shot!! There will always be ways not necessarily to improve an image but to see it in a different light and I think this should be commented on and explained as opposed to just saying its a good or bad image!
We all started somewhere and there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum that is not always utilised,I tend to comment on images that I like and will in future try to comment in a more helpful way on all images!!
While I respect Mark's request for a 'badging' system, I urge the Mods not proceed with such an idea - ranking people can only lead to intimidating the less active or 'newbies' into posting even less. A ‘low ranking individual’ will probably feel their opinion is perceived as being worth less than that of a ‘high ranker (I had to concentrate on spelling that right!!)’. Our 'freedoms' are micro-managed enough in life; I don't need my 'pleasures' to be bureaucratic governed too!
Part of the definition for the word 'forum' is "a place for open discussion or debate": it strikes me that if someone's only comment about a shot is "nice", then, in an ‘open’ forum, that is enough. If we want to stimulate more debate, we should start posting debatable images! As this, and past threads prove, if we provide a talking-point there is no lack of response or opinion!
I agree with the thoughts of others that photographers could help this process by adding more description (motive, approach, emotion, field-craft, etc) to the images they post.
I agree that a badging system is not the way to go. I think because there are such good images on here, we assume everyone is technically capable, so comments like "a bit more DOF would improve this" could maybe be elaborated on by stating " instead of shooting wide open, try stopping down to F8 or F11 when shutter speeds allow. This will help getting all the subject on the focal plane".
Do you think this would be taken badly by some people that would already know that?
I tend (or at least I did) critique my own image in my description so it would make people aware that I knew it was far from perfect, the reasons I thought so and this would save them telling me what I already knew and could comment from their perspective.
Would that work here for others? Most people seem happy with things here so I'll retire from this thread gracefully
Firstly, my 9-5 job has been manic the last few weeks so not had time to get out and do anything and had alittle time to spend making comments, being looking in and seeing that the standard is still very high.
If I see an image that is stunning and I have nothing more to say, well thats all I can say !! I try to offer more constructive critique on images, I feel need it ie sharpening or composition etc.
I love this forum for its friendliness and honest advise/comments, for me it's the best on the net.
The only thing I would like to say is I think this forum is still the best around so don't knock it too much, I also think the mods do a grand job as they do it of there own backs and that to me has to be commended.
As to 'The Mods', I thought one of them was made of tougher stuff , a nettle sting and a week in hospital - well I never ; and to think I looked upto you
I'll post some photos later - Tom Not if M has anything to do with it you wont! - Nick
Danny
Posted by David Taylor on June 25, 2009 at 7:19 PM
As someone whose images attract few comments for whatever reason, I still think it worth while posting if only to punctuate the steady stream of (excellent) images of birds, butterflies and dragonflies that apppear on a regular basis. I try to be different but due to ill health have not been posting or commenting much lately. I don't feel qualified to criticise constructively many of the images that appear which are outside my sphere of interest, but I do know an excellent image when I see one so would comment accordingly if I felt it needed it. Criticism can be very subjective so there can be very different opinions formed on viewing an image.
Write what you feel but be polite if negative points are raised.
What with the thread “A Question for the Lurkers”, effectively being closed and falling off the bottom of the page, and this thread being kept open for “the old guard”, I suppose that is that.
I would like to thank all of you that emailed me, I will reply to everyone over the next few days, and do what I can to help. For those who as of yet still wish to contact me, please do, even if it is just to borrow the tutorial CD/DVD’s I have.
There seems to be some concern about possible changes here !!
Well basically I wouldn’t worry, as I don’t believe to a second, that the flow of information etc., is going to change in the least, that is possibly after an initial flurry. It just isn’t in the personal interests of some people, to divulge their techniques/tricks, to all and sundry. The cliques, for want of a word, will continue to thrive and quite possibly increase.
One last thing, try and look beyond what you initially perceive in an image, and try to see what the photographer is actually trying to achieve. When it comes to comments made, look at what is actually being written, and by who, and it will soon become very apparent as to who knows what they are talking about, and who is just shooting the breeze. Also. you will start to get the feeling as to who will help you the most, if they can.
Again many thanks to all of you who contacted me, I will try and continue to help you and to any others, just ask and if I don’t personally know the answer, then as they say, “I know a man who does”.
Stop trying to be melodramatic - you are simply coming across as being rather childish & neurotic, and I'd expected a bit more maturity than that from you.
The Mods are not showing any favouritism to either you or anyone else. It is simply the case that a single discussion is easier for everyone to follow, this topic was posted after yours, and as your topic was dropping way down anyway it was closed and a link added to point people towards continuing the discussion in this one. If we had the ability to merge your topic onto this one, we would do so.
There's nothing wrong with saying "nice shot" in my book. I don't need to justify why I like or dislike anything to anyone. I photograph wildlife because I love wildlife and love getting close to wildlife, especially Badgers and Red Deer. If people like my photos that's nice. If they don't then that's fine by me. I don't do it get my ego boosted. They're only photos.
My post in my opinion had nothing to do with being as you say and I quote “Stop trying to be melodramatic - you are simply coming across as being rather childish & neurotic, and I'd expected a bit more maturity than that from you.” .
The two posts are completely different.
The post “A Question for the lurkers” revolved around my question:
“What do you LEARN, lurkers in particular, from the postings on this site, about taking natural history images. Emphasis on “TAKING”, as against post processing.”
This thread surely, is all about the comments that are being currently made, about posted images.
I also took the opportunity to thank all of those who contacted me directly, as thier emails were most illuminating and gratefully recieved. It is worth noting, that apart from Graeme Lee’s comment alluring to the emails, no one, Tom, Philip or yourself, have enquired as to their content, which I find very surprising, as I thought it would be of interest as to what the “Lurkers” actually thought. I will add this tho’, they were sent to me privately, and that’s how they will stay, private.
I also thought it worthwhile trying to allay some people’s fears re what might be acceptable or not, re the wording of their comments in the future.
I’ve been here before, so I know nothing substantially will change, as do you.
Members will come and go, questions will be asked, but 99% of them will be off the forum, where they will also be answered. The individual learns and progresses, but the forum as a whole doesn’t. That is what the majority of the forum obviously wants’. Were back to that pool of knowledge again aren’t we, re drinkers and non drinkers.
Re dropping off the bottom of the page. If I had been a mod, then I would have seriously considered anchoring my post to the top of the first page for say a week, as what had been coming thro’ in the comments made, were I think, valid for the general health of the forum, both now and for the future. But hey, that’s just me.
I will try in the future, not to post anything remotely helpful in the form of a thread, like “A Question for the lurkers”, “Low Level Shooting” etc.. I was putting together an article, re the thought processes, including the hide details, behind my new site, but I think I’ll keep that to individual requests now, assuming I bother to finish it.
Anyway, must go now and be rather “childish”, and play with my grandchildren.
Thanks Nick for your response, it was most illuminating.
How can a forum grow if 99% of the information is exchanged via private messaging????
I don't know why I rise to this crap but I clearly do. The forums a few years ago would be full of people describing their images, post processing tips, fieldcraft skills, feeding site setups, tips and tricks ALL IN THE OPEN FORUM for all abilities to see.
Now if you want any of that, it seems it's behind closed doors
Give me that historical openess any day........
The e-mails people send to you are private - and that is how they should stay. That is why I, and the other moderators, have not asked you what you have received from others. What passes between you and others is your private business, not ours.
If people wish to make their views known to the moderators, then they are always free to contact us directly or, if they wish to go public, they can start a topic for discussion. Our contact details are at the top of the forum (as they have been for a long time). I'm quite sure they don't need to use you as a conduit.
For the record the only thing that we ask people to hold back are details of any sensitive locations or species. We do not ask that anything else be withheld, nor exchanged via PM or e-mail - that is entirely up to the poster's discretion.
well if you want a classic example of another reason that I left UKNP its staring you in the face."Stop trying to be melodramatic - you are simply coming across as being rather childish & neurotic, and I'd expected a bit more maturity than that from you" all I can say is its a good job that Nick did not say that to me,its not your place Nick to let your personal feelings get the better of you,and Ray and any other member or non member for that matter is entitled to some respect.Once again the "naughty school boy" syndrome appears. May be we could all club together and send Nick on a PR course,send your donations if you feel you can help. I am appalled that any moderator feels that he can speak to a member in such a way....
Stewart......
Whoooa, all getting a bit out of control here lads !
I don't really see what you are hoping to achieve from encouraging people to email you directly Ray? Other than bi*#%ing behind the mods and forums back.
Lots of the comments on here seem to be the same old tripe, "it wasn't like this in my day" stuff, which seems to be aimed at new members. You talk about a growing forum, how can a forum grow without new members? As a new member myself I feel very reluctant to post or comment at all now!
I sense an undercurrent here, so I would like to redress the balance a little, and I can only speak as I find.
I’m not very knowledgeable when it comes to photography, infact I have only been doing for less than a month.
What I have learnt, I learnt from Ray.
He is one of the most generous/sincere people I have ever met,
He has freely given his time, use of his camera equipment, loaned me CD’s and DVD’s to help me, I could go on.
When I was with at his new site, he didn’t only sat what he was doing, but explained why, then showed me some of his tricks in order that I could better understand what was going on.
As a result of knowing Ray, I have saved a lot of money and time, and saved me from years of frustration.
One thing he does keep saying, that he isn’t pushing his methods onto me, but hopefully giving me a foundation to work from.
If any of you ever have an opportunity to go out with Ray, bite his hand off.
One word of warning about Ray, he does like his tea, and when on site he always seems to have the kettle on.
Many thanks Ray, for everything, you are a real diamond. I can’t wait until we start taking some pictures at the site.
This type of thread happens from time to time. People say things.... I put in my 2p worth about thinking a few years ago was better on here, lots of others pipe up, some have a personal bash..... then it vanishes and people get on with taking pics...... new members join... and so on...
It'll all be forgotten about by tomorrow.......
Regardles how inadequate I am at expressing my views articulately, I certainly haven't had a pop at newer members.
Dear oh Dear !
I really am beginning to wish I'd not started this thread. There is one honest and simple reason why I did.
It was because Kim Connolly put a pic on of a fan tailed warbler which I thought was a grand little shot, and she herself would be the first to tell you she is learning.Comes back full circle to the " Nice one" comment.
It got hardly a mention, and I thought that was not much encouragement. As it happens she's not bothered by that but and will certainly not be pleased with me for me mentioning it.
"That's all she wrote"
JohnR
PS
I have lost count of the prvate e mails I have had asking for advice which has been freely given, but I certainly don't think its a good idea to ask people to send them privately.
UKNP Forum is the official UKNP (United Kingdom Nature Photographers) Forum which is part of the Nature Photographers Network™ (NPN), an international cooperative network of amateur and professional photographers dedicated to the art and technique of nature, wildlife and landscape photography. This is this forums only purpose.
The above is the first paragraph from the guidlines - note the emphasis.
Important: This forum does not exist to discuss this forum; it you want to put forward ideas for improving this forum please email the owners directly; heaven knows we have asked enough Unfortunately all other communication about forum improvements or concerns to any other individuals on the forum will produce no fruit as we don't accept once used, and often subsequently skewed, comments.
We, the Moderators and the owners, of this site have worked hard to get it to be the success it has become and its is a success: the above purpose, conceived 7 years ago, works. But that is only half the success, the rest is also largely due to the the members of this site sharing in, and adhereing to, the above purpose.
The latter half of the above thread does not adhere to this purpose in the slightest; it is a pity that the latitude of moderation that has existed recently is now being abused leaving us no option other than to moderate a wee bit harder - a sad day indeed.
Lewis, as a newbie to this forum your insight is not tainted and is bang on the mark - please, please, keep posting as it is you and your ilk this forum exists for.
Terri, Whilst Ray may have an opinion upon what is right for nature photography it is only one opinion, a collective opinion (based on the law of averages) may serve you better; especially given the expertise on this forum. I would urge you, and other lurkers, to ask questions that align themselves to the purpose of this forum openly on the forum where they can be openly answered. That way all can learn.
UKNP exists for image critique, in posting your image you post it for critique, I would urge all to participate in critique, regardless of your perceived ability to do so and help in how to critique an image can be found here - it works quite well; just remember to keep it civil.
Finally to all the supporters of this forum, and those who have written support above, many thanks as it is nice to read and makes the philanthropic nature of this forum work. As stated if you have ideas for improvement please email them to a moderator.
To those that do not like the purpose, ethos or aims of this forum, well, you are not a prisoner!
I have to admit that I don’t spend nearly enough time on all of the various NPN forums and galleries. Like most of you, I hold down a “real job” and there’s simply too much going on to keep track of it all.
After reading through this thread, I remember reading this elsewhere – oh yes, in just about every other forum! The discussion of what constitutes proper forum participation, photo critique, etc. seems to be a never-ending one. After nearly 10 years of operating NPN, I have come to the conclusion that there is no one single answer.
The bottom line is that every one of the 100,000 monthly unique visitors to NPN has their own reasons. Everyone learns differently, have different comfort levels, etc. Ultimately, it’s up to each of us individually to respect all of the different reasons people participate, at whatever level they feel comfortable with.
Treat others kindly and with respect, keep an open mind, being willing to try something new, respect laws and the rights of others, and most of all, don’t let the petty stuff get in the way of enjoying nature photography and your participation on this site.
People from all walks of life, from all parts of the world, participate in the “main NPN galleries.” It is truly a beautiful thing when cultural/political/religious differences are set aside for the celebration of what we all share in common – a passion for nature and nature photography!
Discussion
37 repliesI think it's worth a deeper discussion, as its not as simple as it appears. I understood that the moderators some time back were going to look into the whole critique question and were going to steer away from the " Nice shot Bill " routine.
That's fine but I find it difficult to think of a way of implementing this. There are many shots coming up every day on this forum, where really it is hard to find anything really wrong apart from the odd twig up a birds bum or something. We have to go for the shot and that's the end of the story- if a better one was available then surely it would have been posted. I very often say "nice shot " etc purely because I think it is. Even though I don't like a picture it is sometimes hard to explain why.
I am sure others have views on this, but how it could be moderated is beyond me.
One could argue that the less comments made - the better the shot!
I have seen some cracking examples of pics posted on this forum that have hardly attained a mention, but have gone down a bomb on several other forums. It really must be quite off putting for a relative newcomer to post what he thinks is a great achievement and get little response because folks are scared of saying " Nice shot "
Come on - lets have some really honest views because I am sure most of you out there have them.
Oh - and thanks for the birthday wishes. I wish the 7 in front of the O was not a seven.
Cheers
JohnR
All very interesting and I am sure this is going to be a big debate having just scanned through Ray's last post. I don't really feel I can say much as I haven't been using the forum long. Maybe that is another thing, newbies feel a little intimidated with big names and members that have been posting on here for years. Lots of folks I have spoken to recently say "you post on UKNP, you're brave!!".
I feel I have learnt a huge amount from the forum in the last few months, not only from my posts, but mostly from reading tech details and comments on others. Having looked back through the years of images on here, I really don't see a huge difference in comments made, perhaps thats just me
I agree John that there are some really superb images that hardly receive a comment. As soon as a big name posts a shot its as if the flood gates open and everybody thinks pheeeew, I can say "nice shot" on this one as 20 other people have too.
Others may not like writing a negative comment when there are already 5 "nice shot" comments, I guess it depends how confident the individual is in voicing their own true opinion. Some shots really don't have a lot wrong with them though, so what more can you say other than "nice shot"?
Lewis.
PS. Happy birthday!
At least some understands what i am trying to say !
Cheers
john
You're as old as you want to be and I have just stopped lying about my age the grandkids put a stop to it. 70 is not old these days think young and enjoy.
Now I'm really old and a slow learner. As a fairly new member of three years duration I was totally intimidated by the forum on one hand but found it inspiring on the other.
Inspired by the quality exhibited and obvious expertise demonstrated and apparent willingness to share knowledge that made the forum for me. Even the pro's I thought this was unique I thought you were all pro's.
I felt intimidated through my total lack of knowledge and refrained from commenting how could I comment I didn't know what the hell I was talking about?
I used the forum to try and access a mine of information and attempt to envoke debate. I posted my failures and drew on advice gleaned. I'm not on an ego trip I was never on that bus.
In my opinion the forum has changed in the last year or so and its not for the improvement clicks have manifested themselves take a look at the index factors.
I'm still convinced its a great forum but truly lacking in a progressive format. Perhaps a sub division could be considered where questions can be put that do envoke debate and can be from all levels of skills. I have learnt far more from debated subjects and what greater compliment can you have than to inspire others to push parameters. Long may the forum continue with perhaps the odd nudge.
I'll raise a glass to you this evening John happy birthday and thanks for your contributions
I don't think people should be afraid of simply posting 'nice shot' if that's what they think. It's true that sometimes it is not easy to offer constructive criticism, particularly if the shot is near perfect or if others have already mentioned the obvious nits. But I think the worse thing we can do to an image is ignore it - there's nothing worse than 150 views and 1or 2 comments.
Happy birthday John
Matt
So, Nice topic John!
Tim
Agreed whole heartedly with Matts comments and would add also that there are still individuals who post and offer very little or no comments. I find that quite annoying.
Certain things were going to be changed as I understood it by the Mods but I see no alterartions so far.
I would have to say though if you keep things exactly the same for ever more eventually things will die. Thats why car manufacturers keep bringing out new models.
Major
Surely if we steer away from just being able to compliment others on this forum then it would make the whole thing seem very intimidating for others wanting to post if they don't see as many positive comments about others' shots?
Having read Ray's comments in the earlier thread then perhaps there is more need for constructive criticism and sharing of ideas, but perhaps sometimes the photographer wishes to retain some secrets for themselves? I wholly agree with the fact that comments like "shame about the OOF stick/grass" etc are not so helpful as it's not always possible to move these things out the way and perhaps we should be asking the photographers more about what they awere trying to achieve with an image? However, please don't stop those who just want to say "well done!"
Cheers
Matt
This forum is for the benefit of everyone on it and I don't think that should ever change. However, what people find beneficial is very different.
When I joined, (relatively recently) I thought as Barry did: this is a fantastic resource allowing me to speak to other nature photographer, even pros, to get help(!) through constructive criticism.
I've come to learn that getting the most out of posting an image included giving a little information about why I posted it and what you are wanting the viewer to feel and understand. What makes the image special to you. I find it hard to comment on images that have only the exif data to describe what's going on.
If, after that effort, people still don't like it, that's fine but at least the context is there so viewers can advise on what could be done to achieve the desired story or share a similar experience if they have one.
Chris
As Matt says, moderator enforcement on the comment number side of things would be a difficult thing to administer; and from what I know of the mods ideology I don't think it's something they would even want to get involved with.
Reading through Rays original thread there seems to be a consensus of opinion in the replies that UKNPN is not what it was - and I must admit to agreeing with that ethos to a large degree - it isn't..
Time was when this forum was populated by images of a "high commercial standard" - well composed, well thought out images that where technically as near perfect as you could get. These images were posted by photographers who do actually make a living from commercial photography, and some that didn't and who just took them for the love of it.
Either way, the largest percentage of posted images were superb.
Other images appeared on the forum though, from photographers who wanted to learn how to "up their game" and produce images of that standard; the forum contributors duly proffered their help and assistance and everything in garden was rosy...
"If you can get pats on the back on UKNPN you know your standard is good..." was quite a common thing to hear.....something that was a bit unfair really, as it made the forum sound like some sort of ivory tower - which it wasn't; it was just a place where the majority knew what they were talking about, produced excellent quality images and were very helpful.
It was quite common for image "reworks" to be posted in replies in order to illustrate points of critique raised, or to illustrate a technique too; something I know proved very useful.
However, there was quite a large influx of new members some time ago, and suddenly there seemed to develop a certain amount of "cliquishness" on the forum - where some of these new members started sticking together and patting each other on the back with comments of "superb image" and the like - when the images clearly were not...
Offers of constructive criticism from established forum members were dutifully shot down by more comments of the "well it works fine for me" ilk - I remember doing a rework on an image myself and all hell broke loose - scathing email, the works!
Personally from that point on I have only really offered critique on images by posters I know will take it in the spirit in which it is offered, and it was around this time that there was a niticeable drop in postings and comments from forum stalwarts - folk like Graeme Lee for instance, who were the backbone of the forum.
I pick on Graeme because he's responded to Rays thread - I thought he'd fallen off the end of his 500mm - HELLO MATEY
Anyway, to get back to the point John raised in the first place, and from a personal standpoint, I don't offer as much critique anymore for the simple reason that I don't know how it will be received - seeing as this is a public forum it doesn't matter how accurate the critique is if afterwards there is one comment that derides said critique, then either the critiqu-er (is that a real word
It's the safest way....but does little or nothing to help either the original poster, (if indeed they wanted it) or the forum in general.
UKNPN is a critique forum - not a showcase.
Back in the old days everyone felt free to offer constructive critique without out-and-out contradiction - however now; and I know I'm not the only one, you really do have to think twice about it - the usual result is "no comment".
On the flip side of this, when I see an image that flicks all my switches what am I supposed to say other than ".. good strong image, great comp - nice one"????
Every image posted on this forum illicits a response from everyone who views it - I often wonder myself why I see flawless images get 50+ views and no comments - what ON EARTH are those 50 viewers thinking
Matt is absolutely right - ignoring an image on a forum such as this is wrong.
Just trying to think of ways to encourage more/better commenting - I don't want to leave the site for forums new particularly as I've seen it grow from years ago when it was even in the old format etc. - look at how the Ebay seller rating thing has worked..
Or maybe its a step too far? probably I guess
We are looking to improve the forums and how they work, and some work is in hand - although as the Mods have to earn their living elsewhere, putting a crust on the table has to take 1st priority and can sometimes mean things go slower than we would otherwise like.
The Mods will reply with our thoughts and views in due course
Very good topic John and happy birthday too.
One of my main issues is the comment ratio's on some of the shots, as Lewis says, if one of our more famous members posts an image the comments come flooding in, now I don't have a problem with this because the image in question is probably world class and probably as good as your going see anywhere, the problem I have is if 30+ people can take the time to comment on the said image why can't 30+ people take the time to comment on the images directly above and below, in most cases these images may only have between 3 and 6 comments, this must be very disheartening for the person who is just starting out in wildlife photography, imagine how encouraging it would be to the newbie if the 30+ offered their advice on improving your photography.
Andy...
I too have had the"you post on UKNP, you're brave!!". But if you don't ask you'll never know !
I find the site inspirational ,evocative and at times a hoot .I have met and exchanged banter with really terrific people here,testiment to the set up ,running and the sort of folks it attracts . Long may it continue.
As to the reported changes that have historically happened or are proposed all I can say is I like it the way it is .
I'm in the ' up their game camp' Disheartened ?Nah ! Encouraged and enlightened ?.Most definitely . I may not comment on all pictures or threads but this site like no other does inspire me to say sod tea I'm off out to spend 3hours with a tin of dog food wait in a hedge with brambles up my arse and see if by chance a fox may come wondering past me .If I have my whits about me I may just take the odd piccy or two.Cheers to John and Ray for the opportunity.
Padawan Mark
Ps.Lurkers? They are a fact !http://www.useit.com/alertbox/participation_inequality.html
I see relatively few complex and intelligent images here, where the photographer has done something edgy, is demonstrating real flair and talent, and trying to push the boundary a bit more by taking a risk with their images. When these images do appear - surprise surprise - they get substantial 'views' and relatively few 'comments' .
I've pondered over this and come to the conclusion that its simply a lack of experience and understanding, perhaps tinged with a slight element of fear - the images are complex and difficult to 'read' - but that doesn't mean they're not appreciated, and to be so bold and actually do so in print might elicit a mocking response. The truth is - an oof blade of grass is much easier to comment on - positively or negatively than the perceived emotional spiritual or intellectual content of an image, and those latter areas of consideration are perhaps waaaay outside many people's comfort zones for discussion on a public forum.
The best images I've seen on here in the last year have had many technical flaws, but my goodness were they stuffed full of emotion and atmosphere - and I commented on one this past week that deserved a real discussion on this forum, for many reasons, and sadly it elicited virtually no responses.
The last two images of foxes here, were one that was wild, here:
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=44342&CGISESSID=fc1135ef8aa445430aa4e413232b40a9&u=1667
viewed 218 times and eliciting 4 comments
and one that was captive, here:
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=44235&CGISESSID=fc1135ef8aa445430aa4e413232b40a9&u=1707
viewed 240 times, eliciting 8 comments
Now all credit to the two photographers for excellent images - but I'll say that my preference is for the wild fox - but I'll qualify that and say the ONLY fox image I have in my collection is a captive one (and its rubbish and nowhere near as good as the referenced fox!).
But whether wild or captive, whats really critical here, in my humble opinion, is that we have one image that IS a fox image - right in-your-face vulpes, and another totally different and much more edgy image that is an impression of a fox.
The captive fox is a lovely engaging portrait, technically well executed and the placement of the animal is for me right on in respect of the background tones and relative to the frame edge, and it grabs you and pulls you in. The wild fox is blurred almost beyond recognition, but not quite - it's retained enough foxiness to make this image work, and the vertical voyeuristic composition heightens the narrow opportunity to view it - both physically view it and emotionally and spiritually connect with it through your bleary eyes as you squint through the curtains on that winter night, wakened by the shrill yelp thats roused you.
Yet this latter wild sensuous and bold image only elicited half the comments of the captive fox. And that is a real pity.
The emotional/spiritual content of the image aside (all subjective, of course!), the wild fox author also commented on the imaging possibilities that digital afforded him - that the technology was so far advanced now that such images were actually POSSIBLE with relative ease - images that would have been incredibly difficult to obtain even a few years ago. This went unremarked upon.
Neither image is 'better' than the other, they are just differing interpretations of a single subject, and in all honesty the 'captive' status is pretty irrelevant - both of these images tested the abilities and equipment of the photographers concerned - both of whose work I admire.
But I think what this comparison might reveal is that only one of those images tested US, the critics and would-be emulators of boundary-breaking work, and I think we (collectively) failed the test!
To finish this ramble I'll quote Mark, above:
" As a 'newcomer' I'm not sure if I'm qualified to comment on this or so many of the inspirational images I see here."
Yes Mark, you are - that you deem some of the work 'inspirational' (or perhaps not!) is all the qualification you require.
I think that there are a number of points which are being overlooked, bit saying that, some of the following will have been touched on, and for that I apologise in advance.
So as the thoughts come to mind, then down they’ll go.
1. For every poster there is a different reason for posting, be it to gain information or for plaudits/showcasing.
2. For every lurker there is a different reason for visiting this site, be it only a wish to relieve the day to day boredom.
3. Not everyone is comfortable in admitting that they just don’t know something in public.
4. Not everyone is articulate when it comes to the written word. My wife is frequently asked by very intelligent people, where she works, to cobble together a letter for them. They say, I’ve written down the gist of what I want can you knock it into shape as you have a way with words.
5. You’re assuming that everyone knows what questions to ask, many don’t.
6. You are also assuming, that those who potentially might comment have what they personally consider to have a sufficient knowledge base, and not to look a fool when they comment, but to be constructive in what they say. Many don’t have this knowledge base, that is why they visit this site, TO LEARN.
7. Many posters don’t truly like criticism, I think Andy A raised this. I personally don’t comment on certain peoples work, purely for this reason. They say they can take it, but they can’t. But then again there are some who can, and do welcome a constructive and honest comment, but they can take some finding. If I’m in any doubt, I usually start with a phrase like “Please don’t take any offence …..”.
8. Yes, the site can be daunting, and this in itself can obviously can put people off. So make it more friendly and less clicky.
9. A lot of the time the information supplied by the poster can be very sketchy, comments like ”usual set-up”, there really is no such thing, is one example which comes to mind, and if that is the first time someone has viewed that posters work, where does this leave them ??
10. It is not unknown for derogatory remarks to be made about other peoples work/comments. This reflects badly, not only on the person who makes the comments, but also on the site as it sets a tone.
11. The majority don’t say where they are based, and I’m guilty here, although I’ve just corrected this. This has the advantage, that a viewer, can see if someone is local to themselves, with the intention of touching base with them.
12. Every persons opinion should be respected, and it isn’t. If someone takes the time to comments on my work, then I really appreciate it, even if it just “Nice one”, at least they have bothered.
13. When it comes to the numbers of people who comment on my work against those who just view it, it really doesn’t bother me , as I look at it from the point of view, that there are at least XXX number of people keeping track of my work.
From my recent post(s) I have learnt a lot, namely that there are some you can take to the pool of knowledge, but turn away, and others who will drink it dry. As a direct result of this, I have decided, that the best option is to provide the minimum information that I consider relevant to a constructive criticism, the more information you give, the more ammunition you give to others to be use against you, I haven’t got the time to go into detail to the enth degree, but saying that, I’ve added a postscript to my posts, saying that if anyone request further info., then they only have to ask, and I’ll do what I can.
There is hope here, but it is upto everyone to work at it.
We all started somewhere and there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum that is not always utilised,I tend to comment on images that I like and will in future try to comment in a more helpful way on all images!!
Craig
www.craigchurchill.co.uk
Part of the definition for the word 'forum' is "a place for open discussion or debate": it strikes me that if someone's only comment about a shot is "nice", then, in an ‘open’ forum, that is enough. If we want to stimulate more debate, we should start posting debatable images! As this, and past threads prove, if we provide a talking-point there is no lack of response or opinion!
I agree with the thoughts of others that photographers could help this process by adding more description (motive, approach, emotion, field-craft, etc) to the images they post.
Cheers,
Chris
Do you think this would be taken badly by some people that would already know that?
I tend (or at least I did) critique my own image in my description so it would make people aware that I knew it was far from perfect, the reasons I thought so and this would save them telling me what I already knew and could comment from their perspective.
Would that work here for others? Most people seem happy with things here so I'll retire from this thread gracefully
Firstly, my 9-5 job has been manic the last few weeks so not had time to get out and do anything and had alittle time to spend making comments, being looking in and seeing that the standard is still very high.
If I see an image that is stunning and I have nothing more to say, well thats all I can say !! I try to offer more constructive critique on images, I feel need it ie sharpening or composition etc.
I love this forum for its friendliness and honest advise/comments, for me it's the best on the net.
Regards
Rob
PS belated birthday wishes John
As to 'The Mods', I thought one of them was made of tougher stuff
I'll post some photos later - Tom
Not if M has anything to do with it you wont! - Nick
Danny
Write what you feel but be polite if negative points are raised.
By the way Happy Birthday John.
I would like to thank all of you that emailed me, I will reply to everyone over the next few days, and do what I can to help. For those who as of yet still wish to contact me, please do, even if it is just to borrow the tutorial CD/DVD’s I have.
There seems to be some concern about possible changes here !!
Well basically I wouldn’t worry, as I don’t believe to a second, that the flow of information etc., is going to change in the least, that is possibly after an initial flurry. It just isn’t in the personal interests of some people, to divulge their techniques/tricks, to all and sundry. The cliques, for want of a word, will continue to thrive and quite possibly increase.
One last thing, try and look beyond what you initially perceive in an image, and try to see what the photographer is actually trying to achieve. When it comes to comments made, look at what is actually being written, and by who, and it will soon become very apparent as to who knows what they are talking about, and who is just shooting the breeze. Also. you will start to get the feeling as to who will help you the most, if they can.
Again many thanks to all of you who contacted me, I will try and continue to help you and to any others, just ask and if I don’t personally know the answer, then as they say, “I know a man who does”.
Stop trying to be melodramatic - you are simply coming across as being rather childish & neurotic, and I'd expected a bit more maturity than that from you.
The Mods are not showing any favouritism to either you or anyone else. It is simply the case that a single discussion is easier for everyone to follow, this topic was posted after yours, and as your topic was dropping way down anyway it was closed and a link added to point people towards continuing the discussion in this one. If we had the ability to merge your topic onto this one, we would do so.
Paul
My post in my opinion had nothing to do with being as you say and I quote “Stop trying to be melodramatic - you are simply coming across as being rather childish & neurotic, and I'd expected a bit more maturity than that from you.” .
The two posts are completely different.
The post “A Question for the lurkers” revolved around my question:
“What do you LEARN, lurkers in particular, from the postings on this site, about taking natural history images. Emphasis on “TAKING”, as against post processing.”
This thread surely, is all about the comments that are being currently made, about posted images.
I also took the opportunity to thank all of those who contacted me directly, as thier emails were most illuminating and gratefully recieved. It is worth noting, that apart from Graeme Lee’s comment alluring to the emails, no one, Tom, Philip or yourself, have enquired as to their content, which I find very surprising, as I thought it would be of interest as to what the “Lurkers” actually thought. I will add this tho’, they were sent to me privately, and that’s how they will stay, private.
I also thought it worthwhile trying to allay some people’s fears re what might be acceptable or not, re the wording of their comments in the future.
I’ve been here before, so I know nothing substantially will change, as do you.
Members will come and go, questions will be asked, but 99% of them will be off the forum, where they will also be answered. The individual learns and progresses, but the forum as a whole doesn’t. That is what the majority of the forum obviously wants’. Were back to that pool of knowledge again aren’t we, re drinkers and non drinkers.
Re dropping off the bottom of the page. If I had been a mod, then I would have seriously considered anchoring my post to the top of the first page for say a week, as what had been coming thro’ in the comments made, were I think, valid for the general health of the forum, both now and for the future. But hey, that’s just me.
I will try in the future, not to post anything remotely helpful in the form of a thread, like “A Question for the lurkers”, “Low Level Shooting” etc.. I was putting together an article, re the thought processes, including the hide details, behind my new site, but I think I’ll keep that to individual requests now, assuming I bother to finish it.
Anyway, must go now and be rather “childish”, and play with my grandchildren.
Thanks Nick for your response, it was most illuminating.
I don't know why I rise to this crap but I clearly do.
Now if you want any of that, it seems it's behind closed doors
Give me that historical openess any day........
The e-mails people send to you are private - and that is how they should stay. That is why I, and the other moderators, have not asked you what you have received from others. What passes between you and others is your private business, not ours.
If people wish to make their views known to the moderators, then they are always free to contact us directly or, if they wish to go public, they can start a topic for discussion. Our contact details are at the top of the forum (as they have been for a long time). I'm quite sure they don't need to use you as a conduit.
Enjoy playing with the grandkids.
Re: How can a forum grow if 99% of the information is exchanged via private messaging????
Excactly, it can’t and it won’t. Neither will individuals either, which is just as important, if not more so.
Re: Give me that historical openess any day........
Couldn’t agree more, and believe it or not, your far from being alone with that wish.
Nick
Specific details are of course private, but the general gist surely isn’t, when it is drawn/condensed from a number of sources.
For the record the only thing that we ask people to hold back are details of any sensitive locations or species. We do not ask that anything else be withheld, nor exchanged via PM or e-mail - that is entirely up to the poster's discretion.
Stewart......
I don't really see what you are hoping to achieve from encouraging people to email you directly Ray? Other than bi*#%ing behind the mods and forums back.
Lots of the comments on here seem to be the same old tripe, "it wasn't like this in my day" stuff, which seems to be aimed at new members. You talk about a growing forum, how can a forum grow without new members? As a new member myself I feel very reluctant to post or comment at all now!
I sense an undercurrent here, so I would like to redress the balance a little, and I can only speak as I find.
I’m not very knowledgeable when it comes to photography, infact I have only been doing for less than a month.
What I have learnt, I learnt from Ray.
He is one of the most generous/sincere people I have ever met,
He has freely given his time, use of his camera equipment, loaned me CD’s and DVD’s to help me, I could go on.
When I was with at his new site, he didn’t only sat what he was doing, but explained why, then showed me some of his tricks in order that I could better understand what was going on.
As a result of knowing Ray, I have saved a lot of money and time, and saved me from years of frustration.
One thing he does keep saying, that he isn’t pushing his methods onto me, but hopefully giving me a foundation to work from.
If any of you ever have an opportunity to go out with Ray, bite his hand off.
One word of warning about Ray, he does like his tea, and when on site he always seems to have the kettle on.
Many thanks Ray, for everything, you are a real diamond. I can’t wait until we start taking some pictures at the site.
This type of thread happens from time to time. People say things.... I put in my 2p worth about thinking a few years ago was better on here, lots of others pipe up, some have a personal bash..... then it vanishes and people get on with taking pics...... new members join... and so on...
It'll all be forgotten about by tomorrow.......
Regardles how inadequate I am at expressing my views articulately, I certainly haven't had a pop at newer members.
I really am beginning to wish I'd not started this thread. There is one honest and simple reason why I did.
It was because Kim Connolly put a pic on of a fan tailed warbler which I thought was a grand little shot, and she herself would be the first to tell you she is learning.Comes back full circle to the " Nice one" comment.
It got hardly a mention, and I thought that was not much encouragement. As it happens she's not bothered by that but and will certainly not be pleased with me for me mentioning it.
"That's all she wrote"
JohnR
PS
I have lost count of the prvate e mails I have had asking for advice which has been freely given, but I certainly don't think its a good idea to ask people to send them privately.
The above is the first paragraph from the guidlines - note the emphasis.
Important: This forum does not exist to discuss this forum; it you want to put forward ideas for improving this forum please email the owners directly; heaven knows we have asked enough
We, the Moderators and the owners, of this site have worked hard to get it to be the success it has become and its is a success: the above purpose, conceived 7 years ago, works. But that is only half the success, the rest is also largely due to the the members of this site sharing in, and adhereing to, the above purpose.
The latter half of the above thread does not adhere to this purpose in the slightest; it is a pity that the latitude of moderation that has existed recently is now being abused leaving us no option other than to moderate a wee bit harder - a sad day indeed.
Lewis, as a newbie to this forum your insight is not tainted and is bang on the mark - please, please, keep posting as it is you and your ilk this forum exists for.
Terri, Whilst Ray may have an opinion upon what is right for nature photography it is only one opinion, a collective opinion (based on the law of averages) may serve you better; especially given the expertise on this forum. I would urge you, and other lurkers, to ask questions that align themselves to the purpose of this forum openly on the forum where they can be openly answered. That way all can learn.
UKNP exists for image critique, in posting your image you post it for critique, I would urge all to participate in critique, regardless of your perceived ability to do so and help in how to critique an image can be found here - it works quite well; just remember to keep it civil.
Finally to all the supporters of this forum, and those who have written support above, many thanks as it is nice to read and makes the philanthropic nature of this forum work. As stated if you have ideas for improvement please email them to a moderator.
To those that do not like the purpose, ethos or aims of this forum, well, you are not a prisoner!
Topic closed - please don't restart it.
After reading through this thread, I remember reading this elsewhere – oh yes, in just about every other forum! The discussion of what constitutes proper forum participation, photo critique, etc. seems to be a never-ending one. After nearly 10 years of operating NPN, I have come to the conclusion that there is no one single answer.
The bottom line is that every one of the 100,000 monthly unique visitors to NPN has their own reasons. Everyone learns differently, have different comfort levels, etc. Ultimately, it’s up to each of us individually to respect all of the different reasons people participate, at whatever level they feel comfortable with.
Treat others kindly and with respect, keep an open mind, being willing to try something new, respect laws and the rights of others, and most of all, don’t let the petty stuff get in the way of enjoying nature photography and your participation on this site.
People from all walks of life, from all parts of the world, participate in the “main NPN galleries.” It is truly a beautiful thing when cultural/political/religious differences are set aside for the celebration of what we all share in common – a passion for nature and nature photography!