Hi to everyone.
I am posting this thread to highlight the problem of human pressure on breeding dippers in 2 dales in the Peak. There has been a growing issue with disturbance over the last year which is now causing great problems. The absolute numbers of photographers has risen at both sites dramatically over the last 2 years and very poor behaviour of a small minority of photographers has been witnessed by a number of people. Neither Dale has a public right of way, the footpaths are concessionary footpaths. This means they can be closed by the landowner at any time they so wish.
Photographers are not the sole culprits, I spent all of Saturday working with the warden of one Dale and he had to talk to a number of people whose dogs were playing in the river and others who were paddling.
I have been working with NE to produce a photographer’s code of conduct when working with dippers in the Peak. This can be downloaded from Natural Englands website -> here
I firmly believe that if the situation carries on as it has done and is doing then we may find that we now longer have access to one of these sites. I have been working on this situation for some while now and still find that many photographers are not aware of their impact on the dippers directly and on access in the longer term.
It may seem very harsh to ask but perhaps we all need to reduce our visits in the future and not to advertise the sites to others until the situation has been resolved to everyone’s satisfaction.
I welcome your comments on this difficult issue
Last year while staying with my parents near nottingham, I wanted to take my sister to photograph dippers, I knew lathkill dale was a popular location with easy access, so I did my research and asked a few people about the site, I got some bad reports coming back to me, so I dug a little deeper.
What I found out horrified me, some photographers had decided to wade in to the river and rearrange rocks to get a better photographic opportunity, this caused the resident dippers to abandon their chicks. After hearing that I refused to go there, and turned detective to find a spot where no one else had been, I enjoyed a couple of days with this pair and was there when the young left the nest, I felt so privileged to record that.
This year we returned to the same spot, but the adult was still sitting on the nest so I came away empty handed, better that than an empty nest.
Hi Paul
I think that something was said by Mr Mark Hamblin one or two years ago about this. Let me ask you a question? Will YOU stop going to that place? The same problem is occuring at Donna nook, Peharps you could apply the same standart and no go there too. you see my point it is easy to tell people what to do but you have to apply those same standart otherwise you are seen to be saying it alright for me to go but nobody else.
Kind regards
Frederic
Posted by Andy Astbury on June 29, 2009 at 7:39 AM
A clear concise and to-the-point document Paul - all common sense really.
It might be a good idea to put your post on Flickr, EPZ, Wild about Britain etc: too.
One person doing the wrong thing in the wrong place can exert much more "pressure" than 100 people behaving properly.
At the end of the day those of who put the wildlife's interests before photography are a minority. And there have been several instances that I can recall on this forum where people have openly admitted to tampering with a site for photographic purposes. Pot, kettle, black.
I heard about these "photographers" wading in the river last year. There is also an idiot on a local moor who drives round and round in his car chasing Short Eared Owls all over the place. They just get the rest of us a bad name. Thankfully they are in the minority.
Have to say, its not only photographers at Lathkill Dale, i was there a few weeks ago (actually it was early May, time flies doesnt it), i set up well back from the falls, with a very long lens (600 plus a 1.4 converter), we had the dippers coming and going, with no change to their behavior at all (we had watched from a distance before approaching and would have left the site if the birds changed behavior after we arrived) they were returning to the nest site, and feeding regularly. It was a couple of hours after we arrived, that a large group of walkers arrived, with children, these children were then paddling in the pool, along with their parents, they didnt even know, or care, why we were there, despite trying to explain to them. Walking across the top of the falls, dogs splashing about etc, the birds left and we could see them about 60 yds downstream, hiding in a bush. We packed up and left, about 200m from the site, i looked back to see a guy, rooting through a bush on the fall to show the people there, where the nest was, if it wasnt for 20kg of camera equipment on my back, i would have turned round and given him a piece of my mind (not that i can afford it but what can you do ;))
I have made a note to never return there, as much as i would like to catch the dippers in a nice natural surrounding, which Lathkill most definitely is, its not worth it if we are going to get all the blame for these beautiful little birds being disturbed ! im not saying there arent irresponsible Photographers out there, the guy that disturbed the White Tailed Eagle nest on Mull is proof of that.
Paul the pdf you linked to has perfect common sense on it its just a shame Photographers are getting all the blame !
Posted by John Robinson on June 29, 2009 at 12:12 PM
I think I mentioned this last year but the same thing hapeened in Wyre Forest with Dippers deserting due to photographers sitting too near to the nest site. Its what goes on away from view that worries me.
Frederic has a very valid point too. Stop one we and all should stop .
JohnR
Posted by Dawn Monrose on June 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM
Paul, your leaflet is excellent. It should be distributed at the entrance to the sites, and large posters made. Yes these people may be in the minority as some people have mentioned, but it can only take one person to cause the dippers to desert the nest.
In the long run, the only way would be to put up some sort of fence or barrier to prevent people getting too close, or a hide suitable for photgraphy for people to observe the birds from and fencing either side. Or maybe some sort of photography permit system. Or perhaps the site should be closed during the nesting season if people can't act responsibly.
I've had experience of the Dippers at Lathkill Dale as well. I have found two pairs to be almost tame, going about their business with people close-by. Of course this doesn't mean you can relax the rules.
The last time I was there a bunch of school kids ran down to the falls and started to drink out their hands at the pool there. Bear Grylls eat your heart out. Ok, they probably don't know any better but this was topped by a gentleman wading into the same pool, feet from a, luckily, recently fledged nest. I think I mentioned him before when I posted a Dipper image. He continued to take a photo of the falls.
What annoys me most is the sheer naivety of these people. As if the waterfall was there solely for humans to come and photograph. It's a shame children aren't taught the country code or some basic ecology from 7 years up. It would put an end to some stunning ignorance.
Yesterday at work I spoke to a man trampling an area of wildflower meadow. I asked him if he had lost something and he replied his son had lost his tennis ball. I pointed out that there were some orchids trying to establish themselves under his feet, he looked surprised, apologised and made off...
thanks for the support,
in reply to Frederic I can say that I have not been to either site in over a year, and only went to one site on one day the year before, saw a number of photographers and left, may I also say that I have no intention of going to either site in the near future.
The dipper site that has experienced the vast majority of problems this year is not Lathkill Dale but another Dale, and it is here that there is a real possibility of access being denied to all, not just during the nesting season but permanently. These dippers have had an appaling breeding year.
I can also vouch for the number of other users who abuse the river, birds etc eg picnicers, dogs off lead, it is the combination of these plus irresponsible photographers, who I have to add have been abusive to a number of people when challanged that has caused this problem to rear its head with such force in the last few weeks. I keep my fingers crossed that common sense prevails and a method of managing the rivers and wildlife can be found that is acceptable to all parties.
Oddly sign-posting seems a good idea but I know that NE and many people dont want a series of signs in NNR's and SSSI's saying dont do this etc, but I agree that more sense, and information is needed before we can move ahead.
Discussion
10 repliesI am posting this thread to highlight the problem of human pressure on breeding dippers in 2 dales in the Peak. There has been a growing issue with disturbance over the last year which is now causing great problems. The absolute numbers of photographers has risen at both sites dramatically over the last 2 years and very poor behaviour of a small minority of photographers has been witnessed by a number of people. Neither Dale has a public right of way, the footpaths are concessionary footpaths. This means they can be closed by the landowner at any time they so wish.
Photographers are not the sole culprits, I spent all of Saturday working with the warden of one Dale and he had to talk to a number of people whose dogs were playing in the river and others who were paddling.
I have been working with NE to produce a photographer’s code of conduct when working with dippers in the Peak. This can be downloaded from
Natural Englands website -> here
I firmly believe that if the situation carries on as it has done and is doing then we may find that we now longer have access to one of these sites. I have been working on this situation for some while now and still find that many photographers are not aware of their impact on the dippers directly and on access in the longer term.
It may seem very harsh to ask but perhaps we all need to reduce our visits in the future and not to advertise the sites to others until the situation has been resolved to everyone’s satisfaction.
I welcome your comments on this difficult issue
Paul Hobson
What I found out horrified me, some photographers had decided to wade in to the river and rearrange rocks to get a better photographic opportunity, this caused the resident dippers to abandon their chicks. After hearing that I refused to go there, and turned detective to find a spot where no one else had been, I enjoyed a couple of days with this pair and was there when the young left the nest, I felt so privileged to record that.
This year we returned to the same spot, but the adult was still sitting on the nest so I came away empty handed, better that than an empty nest.
Dani
I think that something was said by Mr Mark Hamblin one or two years ago about this. Let me ask you a question? Will YOU stop going to that place? The same problem is occuring at Donna nook, Peharps you could apply the same standart and no go there too. you see my point it is easy to tell people what to do but you have to apply those same standart otherwise you are seen to be saying it alright for me to go but nobody else.
Kind regards
Frederic
It might be a good idea to put your post on Flickr, EPZ, Wild about Britain etc: too.
One person doing the wrong thing in the wrong place can exert much more "pressure" than 100 people behaving properly.
Paul
I have made a note to never return there, as much as i would like to catch the dippers in a nice natural surrounding, which Lathkill most definitely is, its not worth it if we are going to get all the blame for these beautiful little birds being disturbed ! im not saying there arent irresponsible Photographers out there, the guy that disturbed the White Tailed Eagle nest on Mull is proof of that.
Paul the pdf you linked to has perfect common sense on it its just a shame Photographers are getting all the blame !
Frederic has a very valid point too. Stop one we and all should stop .
JohnR
In the long run, the only way would be to put up some sort of fence or barrier to prevent people getting too close, or a hide suitable for photgraphy for people to observe the birds from and fencing either side. Or maybe some sort of photography permit system. Or perhaps the site should be closed during the nesting season if people can't act responsibly.
The last time I was there a bunch of school kids ran down to the falls and started to drink out their hands at the pool there. Bear Grylls eat your heart out. Ok, they probably don't know any better but this was topped by a gentleman wading into the same pool, feet from a, luckily, recently fledged nest. I think I mentioned him before when I posted a Dipper image. He continued to take a photo of the falls.
What annoys me most is the sheer naivety of these people. As if the waterfall was there solely for humans to come and photograph. It's a shame children aren't taught the country code or some basic ecology from 7 years up. It would put an end to some stunning ignorance.
Yesterday at work I spoke to a man trampling an area of wildflower meadow. I asked him if he had lost something and he replied his son had lost his tennis ball. I pointed out that there were some orchids trying to establish themselves under his feet, he looked surprised, apologised and made off...
Great article Paul. Very well branded.
Chris
thanks for the support,
in reply to Frederic I can say that I have not been to either site in over a year, and only went to one site on one day the year before, saw a number of photographers and left, may I also say that I have no intention of going to either site in the near future.
The dipper site that has experienced the vast majority of problems this year is not Lathkill Dale but another Dale, and it is here that there is a real possibility of access being denied to all, not just during the nesting season but permanently. These dippers have had an appaling breeding year.
I can also vouch for the number of other users who abuse the river, birds etc eg picnicers, dogs off lead, it is the combination of these plus irresponsible photographers, who I have to add have been abusive to a number of people when challanged that has caused this problem to rear its head with such force in the last few weeks. I keep my fingers crossed that common sense prevails and a method of managing the rivers and wildlife can be found that is acceptable to all parties.
Oddly sign-posting seems a good idea but I know that NE and many people dont want a series of signs in NNR's and SSSI's saying dont do this etc, but I agree that more sense, and information is needed before we can move ahead.
Paul