Posted by Mike Acreman on July 23, 2009 at 10:52 AM
these pictures were taken over period of six weeks from hide on the quantock hills somerset, canon 40d Canon EF 100-400mm f4.5-5.6 L IS USM Lens 1/250 f5.6 ISO 400 tripod and wired shutter release slight crop one week old
1 - Its all been done before so why risk the subject
2 - Springwatch syndrome - education does serve a usefull purposes, nest photography can be done well, or it can be done badly especiallly where pruning has been used to open up a nest (as per "that" skylark nest)
3 - Provided established techniques are used to introduce a tower hide and entry/exit to/from it in darkness, little harm is actually done to the subject.
There are arguments for and against all three. Personally I am in the 1st camp, but that is my opinion, mainly because I now have the attention span of a goldfish and cannot envisage sitting for 16 hours plus in a cramped hide, ie I could never do it properly myself.
Regards this particular image, I think the tower hide positioning is unfortunate, it looks like you are shooting pretty well directly into the sun, so unless there are overcast conditions you are going to perpetually struggle with high contrast issues. Given the effort taken to set the hide up, the results are going to be slightly disappointing when shooting in sunshine conditions
The chick looks slightly soft and it may be my eyes, but the plane of focus seems to be the rearward cluster of oak leaves just above the nest, or it needs some substantial sharpening
As covered above the high contrast/burned out canopy does detract, but there's not much that you do about that this year, the ideal hide position seems to be on the other side of the tree so that you are shooting with the sun behind you most of the day that is if a clear sight line is available.
Posted by Sarah Smith on July 23, 2009 at 12:55 PM
What is different in principle about this shot, against John R's Sand Martins ???
Posted by jack chapman on July 23, 2009 at 2:59 PM
nice image, the subject does seem a little soft though, as for nest photography as a whole there seems to be an opinion that if you are a recognised and respected professional it is okay and that anyone else can't possibly know what they are doing,
Peter Cairns posted an image of a Tengmalms Owl peering out of a nest box not that long ago however nobody criticised his image and rightly so since i'm sure he does know what he is doing, but then i'm sure Mike knows what he's doing too
in my opinion nest photography has it's place as long as it is done carefully and i'm not comfortable in assuming how carefully it is done based on whether i've heard of the photographer or not
Posted by jeff acreman on July 23, 2009 at 3:34 PM
hi all
i agree totally with jack's previous submit, mike is my brother and he would not reply to the previous submits, but i can assure you he/we have been photograghing wildlife for many years, including many subjects, both adult and youngesters including my brothers submit of the buzzard chick and red deer foes, i can assure all concerned that he/we do know what we are doing, although we only do photos as a hobby, i know that brother mike spent many hours pre buzzard nesting/roosting planning and building painstakingly the hide that was used by both of us, also arriving in the very early morning/dark, in order to get the shots we were after, dressed totally in camo gear, that even passers by (although few), walked within a few yards without noticing, we have both been in the hide (seperately as planned) and have had squirels/red deer (hinds and stags), bullfinches, a large amount of wildlife native to the quantock hills almost touching the hide, the hide was ground mounted in thick vegetation and not elevated as suggested, so i hope this puts all questions/anxieties to rest
i can assure all, that the subject is always put first, and countless hours are planned in order to achieve results without interrring with natures course, with the photo a long way behind in second place and hopefully can contiune.
i hope that this submit is taken as it is mean't, not as a defense, but there is a lot more to the end result photo than just pressing the shutter
I hope that Mike willnot be put off posting further images. It seems clear to me that this has been set up with full care and consideration to the subject and I have only admiration for the dedication of people like Jeff and Mike who are quite clearly aware of the human impact on our environment.
Perhaps some who have been so critical of this post should vent some of there anoyance on those who persist in posting images of captive animals.
Being able to see the creature with whom we share this wonderful planet is not a right it's a privilage.
Posted by Mark Hamblin on July 23, 2009 at 5:07 PM
Nest photography of this type will always have its critics. For those that don't like this sort of photography they are of course entitled to their opinions. The bottom line is that the subject comes first which I'm sure was the case here judging from Jeffs comments above. However, I suppose you could argue that a photographer is taking an unnecessary risk in undertaking nest photography in instances when the results don't serve any purpose apart from personal satisfaction. But then the same could be said for waiting outside a fox earth or a badger sett or indeed bringing live specimens inside to photograph in a tank or studio set-up. Its easy to say that if no actual physical harm comes to the subject then its OK but it is hard for us to evaluate what impact or stress our photographic activities are having on the subject. On viewing the image I feel the effort put into this shot is reflected in the final result as its an awkward site to work. That said I would imagine that you thoroughly enjoyed the project from a personal perspective.
I can't speak for Jeff or Mike as I don't know the real circumstances.I am sure they took all the right steps. I might have put a tower hide on a Buzzard some years back but not around here any more.
Regading the Martins. Firstly I am doing an article for the works magazine to tell the world what wonderful people the quarry men are ,in building and protecting this site.
The colony has very heavy machinery and people around all the time back and forth. I can stand at the side of the hide and they carry on as normal. Unlike tree or shrub nesting birds there is no need for gardening which will always be a contentious issue - it always was..Like the woodpecker shots seen on here there is no need to alter the site at all.
The one point I would make is that do people realise how many bird shots are put on this forum and others, done "near " a nest ?? We,ve all seen the lovely beaks full of juicy tit bits . They may not be "at" the nest but damn near to it !
Maybe the mods should create a list --hole nesters OK , - or from public hides (Avos etc ), or open waternests G.C. Grebe - but no hidden nest jobs.
Its been discussed many times before and will again.
JohnR
Posted by David Sewell on July 23, 2009 at 6:17 PM
This is a topic that has been aired before, and no doubt will be again. Although I don't to it myself any longer, I still enjoy a good nest shot where the subjects appear to be relaxed about the hide. Lets see some more with the adult bird. If that also looks relaxed, I have no objections whatsoever to this type of photography.
David
Posted by Mike Andrews on July 24, 2009 at 4:07 AM
All wild animal/bird photos taken in their own environment may well be close to the nest/den. That is where they will be seen most regularly. Most of my shots are currently taken at the feeding/bathing sites, which gives them the choice of visiting, (the beak full of food has just been collected - it is not being delivered). They have no option but to visit the nest. Very often they are aware that I am there (the fox on a log posted recently came within two feet of me, albeit I was inside the hide and he was outside).
If I could find the nest/den, I would most likely be prepared to set up a hide close to it. Where do we novices go to learn how to do this with a minimum impact on the subject? My mistakes during the learning process could affect many creatures unnecessarily, and I would be only too happy to spend time with people to learn from their mistakes, rather than repeat them.
Nest photography will always be contentious, but as already stated, every time we go out we impact some species, even if it is the creepy crawlies we tread on unintentionally. There is always a price to pay.
Advice on how to do it properly may be preferable, rather than just being told not to do it. Some of the above comments could be enough to deter folks from posting, and then they would never get the information required.
It seems from reading between the lines of the above, that once an individual sells a few pictures, they take on the self imposed title of “professional” for themselves. Then their attitude changes towards other photographers, who aren’t what they consider to be “professionals”, they become rather dismissive of their work..
Mike’s image, to my unschooled eye, doesn’t look like there has been anything other than care and consideration for the subject, exhibited here, resulting in what I think is a very nice picture.
A lot is being made about the ethics about nest photography, but I see a lot of images posted on this forum of reptiles and amphibians, where it is admitted that they are being either controlled or captive, but nothing is said, even though as I understand it, such actions are illegal here in the UK, without a licence. As nothing is ever said, is it because the authors are considered to be “professionals”. Seems a bit hypocritical don’t you think.
I’m what many would call a novice, but I’m learning fast, and very fast, but I have to say, that it isn’t from what is posted here, as there is little if any information posted about how an image is taken, and I do not mean equipment. This is highlighted by Mike Andrews comment above. There seems to be a lot of assumptions being made, “If I know it, everyone else does”, and frequently this isn’t the case. I also suspect many are making assumptions on others posts, and are frequently not backed up with the required knowledge and experience, for what is then expressed in their comments.
Mike, what I did, was to contact quite a number of photographers, many from this site, via their web sites and asked questions and for help, invariably I got no responses back. But I persevered, and eventually I got lucky, very lucky. I met up with an experienced photographer, who was and is more than willing to help me, I have learnt so much in a relatively short period of time, it has saved me a considerable amount of both time and money, and yes, I have also learnt how to keep any disturbance of the habitat and its wildlife to a minimum. So my advice would be, ask questions and ask for help, sooner or later someone will help.
Discussion
11 repliesRegards
Mark.G
1 - Its all been done before so why risk the subject
2 - Springwatch syndrome - education does serve a usefull purposes, nest photography can be done well, or it can be done badly especiallly where pruning has been used to open up a nest (as per "that" skylark nest)
3 - Provided established techniques are used to introduce a tower hide and entry/exit to/from it in darkness, little harm is actually done to the subject.
There are arguments for and against all three. Personally I am in the 1st camp, but that is my opinion, mainly because I now have the attention span of a goldfish and cannot envisage sitting for 16 hours plus in a cramped hide, ie I could never do it properly myself.
Regards this particular image, I think the tower hide positioning is unfortunate, it looks like you are shooting pretty well directly into the sun, so unless there are overcast conditions you are going to perpetually struggle with high contrast issues. Given the effort taken to set the hide up, the results are going to be slightly disappointing when shooting in sunshine conditions
The chick looks slightly soft and it may be my eyes, but the plane of focus seems to be the rearward cluster of oak leaves just above the nest, or it needs some substantial sharpening
As covered above the high contrast/burned out canopy does detract, but there's not much that you do about that this year, the ideal hide position seems to be on the other side of the tree so that you are shooting with the sun behind you most of the day that is if a clear sight line is available.
Peter Cairns posted an image of a Tengmalms Owl peering out of a nest box not that long ago however nobody criticised his image and rightly so since i'm sure he does know what he is doing, but then i'm sure Mike knows what he's doing too
in my opinion nest photography has it's place as long as it is done carefully and i'm not comfortable in assuming how carefully it is done based on whether i've heard of the photographer or not
i agree totally with jack's previous submit, mike is my brother and he would not reply to the previous submits, but i can assure you he/we have been photograghing wildlife for many years, including many subjects, both adult and youngesters including my brothers submit of the buzzard chick and red deer foes, i can assure all concerned that he/we do know what we are doing, although we only do photos as a hobby, i know that brother mike spent many hours pre buzzard nesting/roosting planning and building painstakingly the hide that was used by both of us, also arriving in the very early morning/dark, in order to get the shots we were after, dressed totally in camo gear, that even passers by (although few), walked within a few yards without noticing, we have both been in the hide (seperately as planned) and have had squirels/red deer (hinds and stags), bullfinches, a large amount of wildlife native to the quantock hills almost touching the hide, the hide was ground mounted in thick vegetation and not elevated as suggested, so i hope this puts all questions/anxieties to rest
i can assure all, that the subject is always put first, and countless hours are planned in order to achieve results without interrring with natures course, with the photo a long way behind in second place and hopefully can contiune.
i hope that this submit is taken as it is mean't, not as a defense, but there is a lot more to the end result photo than just pressing the shutter
jeff acreman
Perhaps some who have been so critical of this post should vent some of there anoyance on those who persist in posting images of captive animals.
Being able to see the creature with whom we share this wonderful planet is not a right it's a privilage.
Regading the Martins. Firstly I am doing an article for the works magazine to tell the world what wonderful people the quarry men are ,in building and protecting this site.
The colony has very heavy machinery and people around all the time back and forth. I can stand at the side of the hide and they carry on as normal. Unlike tree or shrub nesting birds there is no need for gardening which will always be a contentious issue - it always was..Like the woodpecker shots seen on here there is no need to alter the site at all.
The one point I would make is that do people realise how many bird shots are put on this forum and others, done "near " a nest ?? We,ve all seen the lovely beaks full of juicy tit bits . They may not be "at" the nest but damn near to it !
Maybe the mods should create a list --hole nesters OK , - or from public hides (Avos etc ), or open waternests G.C. Grebe - but no hidden nest jobs.
Its been discussed many times before and will again.
JohnR
David
If I could find the nest/den, I would most likely be prepared to set up a hide close to it. Where do we novices go to learn how to do this with a minimum impact on the subject? My mistakes during the learning process could affect many creatures unnecessarily, and I would be only too happy to spend time with people to learn from their mistakes, rather than repeat them.
Nest photography will always be contentious, but as already stated, every time we go out we impact some species, even if it is the creepy crawlies we tread on unintentionally. There is always a price to pay.
Advice on how to do it properly may be preferable, rather than just being told not to do it. Some of the above comments could be enough to deter folks from posting, and then they would never get the information required.
Mike’s image, to my unschooled eye, doesn’t look like there has been anything other than care and consideration for the subject, exhibited here, resulting in what I think is a very nice picture.
A lot is being made about the ethics about nest photography, but I see a lot of images posted on this forum of reptiles and amphibians, where it is admitted that they are being either controlled or captive, but nothing is said, even though as I understand it, such actions are illegal here in the UK, without a licence. As nothing is ever said, is it because the authors are considered to be “professionals”. Seems a bit hypocritical don’t you think.
I’m what many would call a novice, but I’m learning fast, and very fast, but I have to say, that it isn’t from what is posted here, as there is little if any information posted about how an image is taken, and I do not mean equipment. This is highlighted by Mike Andrews comment above. There seems to be a lot of assumptions being made, “If I know it, everyone else does”, and frequently this isn’t the case. I also suspect many are making assumptions on others posts, and are frequently not backed up with the required knowledge and experience, for what is then expressed in their comments.
Mike, what I did, was to contact quite a number of photographers, many from this site, via their web sites and asked questions and for help, invariably I got no responses back. But I persevered, and eventually I got lucky, very lucky. I met up with an experienced photographer, who was and is more than willing to help me, I have learnt so much in a relatively short period of time, it has saved me a considerable amount of both time and money, and yes, I have also learnt how to keep any disturbance of the habitat and its wildlife to a minimum. So my advice would be, ask questions and ask for help, sooner or later someone will help.