Posted by Pam Colander on August 4, 2009 at 2:57 PM
My new external hard drive and DVD-Rs just arrived and I need some guidance. Please indulge me if some of these questions seem, uh, dumb. I am assuming what I should be saving is: original RAW files & full size processed files I like. Should I save EVERY file unless they are obviously bad. It seems people ask for images I don't necessarily think are good. I am also assuming these should be TIFFs and saved in RGB color space. I plan on deleting web versions from the folders. Does this sound right? I will also do this on the DVD-R discs. As far as color space this is what I have gathered from reading and forum info: I should shoot/work up RAW files in Adobe RGB but convert to standard RGB for printing and web posting? I sincerely appreciate any input on what works for you. I want to get this right...thanks
Posted by Jack Garrett on August 4, 2009 at 3:13 PM
I'm gonna let Nat chime in on this one but I will just say one thing. I've also had people interested in buying images that I didn't think were necessarily great. It's in the eye of the beholder. I would delete images that are really bad (out of focus, way under/over exposed) but if they have some potential I'd hang on to them for a while.
Posted by Brent Murphy on August 4, 2009 at 3:30 PM
Personally, I don't create TIFFs unless I need to. I just keep the RAW file in Lightroom, and tweak as needed. I'll export to TIFF or JPG for output as needed, with whatever color space is appropriate for that specific output.
As for deleting photos, I agree with Jack. I keep nearly everything, unless it has serious problems.
Yep, save everything, you wont regret it! saving in RGB sounds fine to me.
Posted by Paul Martin on August 4, 2009 at 5:29 PM
I save all of my RAW files on hard drive and DVD, but after the initial processing I save them as PSD files instead of TIFFs. From there I convert to JPGs or TIFFs as needed. I don't get too attached to anything but the RAWs, since I seem to go back often an re-interpret the processing on those a lot.
Posted by Todd Caudle on August 4, 2009 at 5:34 PM
I do the exact same thing as Paul, Download my RAW files to a hardrive, then back them up to DVD. I also copy the RAW files to a second portable hardrive, so technically have 3 copies of them. I convert the RAW files to TIFF as and when I work on them, then usually save them again as a TIFF when post-processed.
Posted by Bob Falcone on August 4, 2009 at 7:24 PM
I've got two identical external drives that I use for keeping my photos. One isn't plugged into the computer unless I'm saving to it, the other is the "editing" drive. I also save a third copy to DVD's.
As for keeping/not keeping...Being brought up in the old-school slide shooting days, I got used to being pretty ruthless in my editing. With slides, I would throw them on the light table, and if I didn't like a shot at first glance, I tossed it. Kept me from keeping a lot of crap.
I do the same with digital. If it's a file that looks horrible to begin with it, or will take a lot of processing to just become passable, I toss it.
I save all of my unconverted RAW files (except for obvious clunkers) as 'digital negatives'.
I save my master layered files almost completely edited except for final sharpening and in ProPhotoRGB color space (converted in ACR) as 16 bit TIFF files. The future may produce better sharpening methods, and printers that can read the wider color gamut that PPRGB possesses. I'm moving away from PSD files per advice from Photoshop experts (Jeff Schewe, John Nack and Tim Gray) regarding future support for this file type.
From there. the master files are flattened, sharpened and converted to 8 bit mode and a narrower gamut color space chosen for prints (AdobeRGB) and Web use (sRGB).
I shoot raw DNG's, save all the originals on a backup drive, and use LR to backup processed images. As I'm fairly new to post processing I often return to an original to start anew and compare with earlier PP. Just my ¢¢.
Posted by Paul Martin on August 4, 2009 at 8:49 PM
Interesting point, John, I've often thought about future support for PSD files -- I just figured the Adobe would continue to support their own file type, but hey, even Canon switched mounts once. I may have to look further into DNGs, I thought they were supposed to be the standard for everyone at some point. I wish all of the people in the biz would just settle on one standard "raw" file type -- but I guess it ain't happening.
Posted by Roger Rouch on August 4, 2009 at 8:50 PM
I pretty much do what Paul does, as well. However, I back up to two external hard drives instead of DVDs. So I have most of my files on my computer and also two external drives. Probably the exception are a few very large PSD files that I've rezed up and used for big prints. I keep these in separate files on the external drives only. All PSD files are in RBG and I only convert to TIFF, sRBG, JPG, etc. for web or if a particular printer requires conversion.
I take a lot of images of a particular scene I like, sometime bracketing exposure, different angles, or maybe of subtle light and cloud changes. I'm aggressive in editing, but try to keep at least one shot of a decent piece of scenery.
I shoot strictly RAW and am not consistently saving as DNGs, but starting to do so. I use three external HDDs and each year, I replace the oldest one. Two are kept at home - the third (which gets backed up once a month) is offsite. After going through many manufacturers, I recommend BY FAR the MiniStack v2 or v3 models from NewerTechnology. These can be purchased through Other World Computing (OWC). These also provide multiple USB ports, which are generally in too short a supply.
As for editing, I'm pretty strict. Most get tossed. I may keep 10% on average. The exception would be certain trip photos where I wish to keep a chronological or documentary record. I also purge my image library annually, because what I shot a year ago may not be better than what I shot most recently. I.e., I -hope- I'm improving!
I generally go over this work flow in my seminars.
Ken
Posted by Mel Ladewig on August 5, 2009 at 11:39 AM
I recently did some research on the PSD versus TIFF file sizes and found that about half the time, TIFF provided equal or slightly smaller file sizes with large layered files. I was working with 16bit files with sizes before layers in the 125-600MB range. When the processing is completed, the end file sizes are typically between 350MB and 1.5GB.
There are several issues. PSD is a proprietary file format, clearly based on TIFF with a certain type of compression applied. The standard for early versions of PSD were apparently published in the public domain, but later versions have not been. TIFF itself is a more common format, but some features of TIFF such as layers are not supported by all applications and may not be standardized. Because the standards for TIFF have been published in the public domain, it will be possible to program applications to open or convert them in the future if some change happens in the marketplace.
As far as the backups go, I do everything (CR2, TIFF, JPEG) to a 1TB NAS server and have another disk at a remote site.
Posted by Nat Coalson on August 6, 2009 at 12:34 PM
Pamela, good discussion you've started; here goes my reply [deep breath]... what you're mainly dealing with here is the difference between "backup" and "archival". A forward-looking approach is ideal.
Backups need to be regularly updated and kept in sync with your working library of files. At minimum, these are hard drives attached to your main workstation that you synchronize frequently; you might also have a separate backup drive for your laptop etc.
Hard drive storage can be expected to be replaced relatively frequently, due to failure or running out of capacity. So although they are essential components of your workflow, think of backups as temporary.
On Mac I use ChronoSync to maintain backups of my image library; on Windows I use RoboCopy. I sync my drives after every "significant" work session. My working and backup drives currently are all 1TB external USB.
Archives are permanent, kept for emergencies and/or for long-term storage. These can be DVDs or other optical media; or solid state media such as USB flash drives. Ideally they should be kept off-site, at a secure place such as a safe deposit box. With a good backup strategy, hopefully, your archives won't ever be needed. But if they are, it's imperative that they remain readable by future computer systems.
With the issue of storage media addressed, you then need to determine what files go into your backups and archives:
The raw capture from your camera is the original. Think of it like a slide or a piece of negative. It can't be replaced. Generally speaking, I think raw captures should be archived in addition to being backed up during your regular workflow.
I convert to DNG immediately on download and don't save the native camera raw files.
Processed TIF (or Photoshop) files also need to be backed up. In essence, they become your new original, or master file after you've put any time into processing them. You wouldn't want to have to go all the way back to the raw original if you lost those. In my opinion, these ideally should also be periodically archived; however, it depends on the amount of work that has gone into them... and keep in mind that these files can be much larger than the raw originals, so archiving all of them might not be practical.
I always save my layered work files (from Photoshop) as TIF - no more PSD.
Which brings us to all other derivative files made from original or master working files. Most of the time, I don't save them at all. For example. JPGs are always made for a specific purpose, to a certain size, color space etc. and once I use it for that purpose I usually delete them. The same usually holds true for high res files I've prepared for print. Unless I expect to be using that derivative file over and over, it's usually more efficient to delete them. If necessary, I can always easily regenerate a derivative from the original raw or master tif file.
With regard to color spaces, you should always work in the largest RGB color space possible when working on your master files; Adobe RGB is usually fine for this, but on some images you may find that ProPhoto provides a better working space.
For this reason I always work in ProPhoto on my layered master files. (But there would be no benefit to going back to convert your Adobe RGB files to ProPhoto at this point.)
Finally, only convert to specific color spaces (and size/resolution) for your derivative files, for the purpose at hand... ie web, printing etc.
I always work on original and master files at their native resolution.
It's important to consistently use a defined system for how you import, work with and store your photos. At present, I retain all my original (DNG) and master (TIF) photos on my main working drive and backup drives. In other words, once it's imported into my library I don't usually delete anything. (However, when doing the initial import I may exclude photos that are obviously of no use to me.)
Consider this: if you don't delete any photos from your working hard drives, you eliminate the risk of accidentally deleting something you should have kept. In other words, being in the habit of deleting files introduces the potential for mistakes.
Hard drive storage is cheap and easy to replace. To me, it's worth the "wasted" space of files I'm not using, in the offhand chance I may need them later.
Every few years, I may go through a set of photos and reevaluate their potential. I've often found hidden gems I had overlooked or forgotten about. If at that time I confirm my decision that a file is of no use, I may then delete it.
Whatever you choose to do, I think it's most important to eliminate the deletion process from your first rounds of editing. It's easy to just hide the ones you don't like from view with the confidence of knowing that you can change your mind later.
It's all about protecting your assets.
Posted by Pam Colander on August 6, 2009 at 1:05 PM
Thanks very much everyone for your valueable contributions. I'm ready to start this large project. Better lay in supplies plus Rx for swollen ankles and numb butt
Posted by Nat Coalson on August 7, 2009 at 12:09 PM
Pam - a couple of other points:
1) Canon's Digital Photo Professional and Nikon's Capture NX notoriously don't support DNG; if you want to use the camera makers' software you will need to stick with native camera raw.
2) You might not need to do any work in Photoshop on your final selects.... always try to do as much as possible in your raw converter.
These days I might take maybe only 1 out of 10 photos into Photoshop; the rest is all in Lightroom. So I don't generate very many TIFs.
The exceptions are only photos that need heavy processing, manipulation or compositing.
Since you have Photoshop, using Bridge and Adobe Camera Raw is *almost* as effective as Lightroom. you can make DNGs from those apps; and the adjustment tools in current versions of ACR and LR are identical.
Discussion
17 repliesAs for deleting photos, I agree with Jack. I keep nearly everything, unless it has serious problems.
As for keeping/not keeping...Being brought up in the old-school slide shooting days, I got used to being pretty ruthless in my editing. With slides, I would throw them on the light table, and if I didn't like a shot at first glance, I tossed it. Kept me from keeping a lot of crap.
I do the same with digital. If it's a file that looks horrible to begin with it, or will take a lot of processing to just become passable, I toss it.
I save my master layered files almost completely edited except for final sharpening and in ProPhotoRGB color space (converted in ACR) as 16 bit TIFF files. The future may produce better sharpening methods, and printers that can read the wider color gamut that PPRGB possesses. I'm moving away from PSD files per advice from Photoshop experts (Jeff Schewe, John Nack and Tim Gray) regarding future support for this file type.
From there. the master files are flattened, sharpened and converted to 8 bit mode and a narrower gamut color space chosen for prints (AdobeRGB) and Web use (sRGB).
I take a lot of images of a particular scene I like, sometime bracketing exposure, different angles, or maybe of subtle light and cloud changes. I'm aggressive in editing, but try to keep at least one shot of a decent piece of scenery.
As for editing, I'm pretty strict. Most get tossed. I may keep 10% on average. The exception would be certain trip photos where I wish to keep a chronological or documentary record. I also purge my image library annually, because what I shot a year ago may not be better than what I shot most recently. I.e., I -hope- I'm improving!
I generally go over this work flow in my seminars.
Ken
There are several issues. PSD is a proprietary file format, clearly based on TIFF with a certain type of compression applied. The standard for early versions of PSD were apparently published in the public domain, but later versions have not been. TIFF itself is a more common format, but some features of TIFF such as layers are not supported by all applications and may not be standardized. Because the standards for TIFF have been published in the public domain, it will be possible to program applications to open or convert them in the future if some change happens in the marketplace.
As far as the backups go, I do everything (CR2, TIFF, JPEG) to a 1TB NAS server and have another disk at a remote site.
Backups need to be regularly updated and kept in sync with your working library of files. At minimum, these are hard drives attached to your main workstation that you synchronize frequently; you might also have a separate backup drive for your laptop etc.
Hard drive storage can be expected to be replaced relatively frequently, due to failure or running out of capacity. So although they are essential components of your workflow, think of backups as temporary.
On Mac I use ChronoSync to maintain backups of my image library; on Windows I use RoboCopy. I sync my drives after every "significant" work session. My working and backup drives currently are all 1TB external USB.
Archives are permanent, kept for emergencies and/or for long-term storage. These can be DVDs or other optical media; or solid state media such as USB flash drives. Ideally they should be kept off-site, at a secure place such as a safe deposit box. With a good backup strategy, hopefully, your archives won't ever be needed. But if they are, it's imperative that they remain readable by future computer systems.
With the issue of storage media addressed, you then need to determine what files go into your backups and archives:
The raw capture from your camera is the original. Think of it like a slide or a piece of negative. It can't be replaced. Generally speaking, I think raw captures should be archived in addition to being backed up during your regular workflow.
I convert to DNG immediately on download and don't save the native camera raw files.
Processed TIF (or Photoshop) files also need to be backed up. In essence, they become your new original, or master file after you've put any time into processing them. You wouldn't want to have to go all the way back to the raw original if you lost those. In my opinion, these ideally should also be periodically archived; however, it depends on the amount of work that has gone into them... and keep in mind that these files can be much larger than the raw originals, so archiving all of them might not be practical.
I always save my layered work files (from Photoshop) as TIF - no more PSD.
Which brings us to all other derivative files made from original or master working files. Most of the time, I don't save them at all. For example. JPGs are always made for a specific purpose, to a certain size, color space etc. and once I use it for that purpose I usually delete them. The same usually holds true for high res files I've prepared for print. Unless I expect to be using that derivative file over and over, it's usually more efficient to delete them. If necessary, I can always easily regenerate a derivative from the original raw or master tif file.
With regard to color spaces, you should always work in the largest RGB color space possible when working on your master files; Adobe RGB is usually fine for this, but on some images you may find that ProPhoto provides a better working space.
For this reason I always work in ProPhoto on my layered master files. (But there would be no benefit to going back to convert your Adobe RGB files to ProPhoto at this point.)
Finally, only convert to specific color spaces (and size/resolution) for your derivative files, for the purpose at hand... ie web, printing etc.
I always work on original and master files at their native resolution.
It's important to consistently use a defined system for how you import, work with and store your photos. At present, I retain all my original (DNG) and master (TIF) photos on my main working drive and backup drives. In other words, once it's imported into my library I don't usually delete anything. (However, when doing the initial import I may exclude photos that are obviously of no use to me.)
Consider this: if you don't delete any photos from your working hard drives, you eliminate the risk of accidentally deleting something you should have kept. In other words, being in the habit of deleting files introduces the potential for mistakes.
Hard drive storage is cheap and easy to replace. To me, it's worth the "wasted" space of files I'm not using, in the offhand chance I may need them later.
Every few years, I may go through a set of photos and reevaluate their potential. I've often found hidden gems I had overlooked or forgotten about. If at that time I confirm my decision that a file is of no use, I may then delete it.
Whatever you choose to do, I think it's most important to eliminate the deletion process from your first rounds of editing. It's easy to just hide the ones you don't like from view with the confidence of knowing that you can change your mind later.
It's all about protecting your assets.
1) Canon's Digital Photo Professional and Nikon's Capture NX notoriously don't support DNG; if you want to use the camera makers' software you will need to stick with native camera raw.
2) You might not need to do any work in Photoshop on your final selects.... always try to do as much as possible in your raw converter.
These days I might take maybe only 1 out of 10 photos into Photoshop; the rest is all in Lightroom. So I don't generate very many TIFs.
The exceptions are only photos that need heavy processing, manipulation or compositing.
Since you have Photoshop, using Bridge and Adobe Camera Raw is *almost* as effective as Lightroom. you can make DNGs from those apps; and the adjustment tools in current versions of ACR and LR are identical.