Posted by John Robinson on August 10, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Has anyone any idea how many folks out there are doing workshops/small area guided tours etc. in the UK, and could do with some rough guides to charges that are reasonable. ( Private E mail if you wish )
I am thinking about doing this with mainly woodland birds etc and can run about 4 hides in the garden without too much crowding. It would be mainly in the Winter months and we can get a great range of species as you can see by my postings over the past year or so.. I could even stretch to pool stuff. This is all of course to pre pay for my old folks home fees. I could get some deals on Winter B&B etc locally. Could possibly even get the better half to agree to in house accomodation. One double bed room only I am affraid with a single double bed ! -So only very friendly snappers suitable.
Just an idea at the moment. Any comments or help gratefully recieved.
Cheers
JohnR
Posted by Rob Howard on August 10, 2009 at 6:43 PM
Hi John.
I think it's a great idea, you have proven with your images that you get a great range of species, not sure what pricing structure you could do, just look round some websites then decide. But also remember in this day and age you will need liabilty insurance, because you know something will happen and then all your retirement home savings might just go into someone elses pocket !!
Regards
Rob
Posted by John Robinson on August 10, 2009 at 6:59 PM
Good point Rob . As soon as liability insurance is mentioned I panic, That's exactly why I have stopped doing eco surveys and bat suveys etc.
Thanks.
So if a friend comes and uses a hide in my garden for a couple of days and I don't charge them I,m ok ??
And if he/she buys me ten bottles of grouse and buys the wife some wine (like 10 bottles) -
and keeps her happy for the weekend -I,m still OK?
John
John
If you're going to make money out of it, then PL insurance is a tax allowable expense. You need to get yourself some quotes and then build the cost of the insurance in to the price you charge - that way it's covered by your income, and you can still get some profit too. PL Insurance can be got separate to kit insurance. You'd need to talk to a few brokers, but I'd guess you'd probably be looking between £100 & £200 pa for up to £1M cover - depending on exactly what you're planning on doing/going.
So...
Profit you want to make per year = x
Profit per session = x divided by number of sessions you plan to run
Cost of PL Insurance divided by y sessions per year = PL per session.
your cost of session = PL per session + refreshments + any other overheads you incur
charged cost of session = your cost + profit you want to make per session
cost per person = charged cost of session divided by number of attendees
etc etc
If your friend gives you whisky/wine, then you're still being paid in kind and (if you're making a profit) the taxman would want his cut too.... but in monopoly money, not wine/spirits . And yes, the taxman does visit the forum from time to time
Posted by Andrew Stagg on August 11, 2009 at 4:50 AM
John,
Check your camera insurance - mine from E&L also has £2m PL. It does state that this is PL cover resulting from the use of the insured equipment, however on a workshop you would be using the equipment to demonstrate technique.
Andrew
Posted by Duncan Armour on August 11, 2009 at 8:28 AM
John,
Depends on what group you are looking to target with your workshops.
Most of the ones that I have seen tend to be for less experienced photographers and charge anything from £60 - £150 per day depending on group size (from 4-15) and how well known the photography teacher actually is. These kind of workshops have proliferated rapidly in the last couple of years as photographers have increasingly found that photography itself doesn't pay, but teaching others can, especially given the large influx of people who have become hooked via the digital photography route. So this group of people are the most numerous but.....
i) they may not know how to use their cameras and will want you to tell them how
ii) they might have anything from a point and shoot to a D3X and see point i) above
iii) they might only have a wide angle lens
iv) they won't be used to sitting still in a cold hide
v) they won't be used to sitting still at all
vi) they will expect the nature to turn up on cue, even if it is absolutely p*****g down outside
That's why most of these kind of courses are run at zoos or private wildlife collections, or use falconers to guarantee subjects. So if you go down this route at least make sure you have a foul weather plan.
A step up from this would be to offer your services to local camera clubs, many of whom will have days trips out together (but primarily at weekends). Your charges might need to be closer to £30 pp per day to get this kind of group.
The last market are obviously the experienced photogs who would like to borrow a great set-up without having to go to the trouble or time of setting one up. These workshops are pretty rare in this country, and I think your success will depend very much on the type of species and frequency that they turn up at your set ups. So keeping a log to give people an idea would be key. I'm also not sure how many would actually pay decent money for this service. I could be wrong, but my sense still is that without high impact species you might struggle.
That said, you could probably convince me that it would be a good day/weekend out.
D.
Posted by Peter Cairns on August 11, 2009 at 8:41 AM
John
You should be aware of the Package Travel Regulations which you will need to adhere to if you're offering any combination of activity, transport and/or accommodation. The main requirement of the regulations is that you must take out a bond to protect pre-payments or else open a trust account.
This, along with PL insurance as mentioned above (although the premium is likely to be much more than £200!), and you're away!
Section 3(1) states the remit and scope... namely they apply to
" packages sold or offered for sale in the territory of the United Kingdom"
so if you offer to sell foreign packages (even as a broker) I assume that these rules apply to you.
If it is not simple tuition and you fall under the remit of these regulations then be advised that a courts Level 5 fine is about £5000.00.
T
Posted by Danny Green on August 11, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Hello John
I think you would be best targeting the more experienced photographers and then charge them/us a decent rate for yourself and not only the time you put in on the day but also the time it has taken you to set the things up in the first place. Prices vary across the UK and Europe and you can pay anything from £75 - £250 a day, if you are going down the route of say one to one tuitions then again a rate between £150-£250 a day is a good rate. Your competition is fierce and you will need to look into that but take an example like the Osprey set-up near Aviemore these charge £130 for a day which is expensive but it is a blue chip species so it is in demand especially from people who try to sell their stuff. Either way John you have a good set-up and your images are your best advert. Good luck and I might be a customer
Danny
Posted by John Robinson on August 11, 2009 at 1:23 PM
Thanks all for the great advice. very enlightening..
It would certainly only revolve around the woodland stuff that i have around the house in the Winter although that list is quite good. Its amazing how many folks don't get the chance to do the stuff which is common here.
Food for thought anyway.
Thanks again.
JohnR
Discussion
9 repliesI am thinking about doing this with mainly woodland birds etc and can run about 4 hides in the garden without too much crowding. It would be mainly in the Winter months and we can get a great range of species as you can see by my postings over the past year or so.. I could even stretch to pool stuff. This is all of course to pre pay for my old folks home fees. I could get some deals on Winter B&B etc locally. Could possibly even get the better half to agree to in house accomodation. One double bed room only I am affraid with a single double bed ! -So only very friendly snappers suitable.
Just an idea at the moment. Any comments or help gratefully recieved.
Cheers
JohnR
I think it's a great idea, you have proven with your images that you get a great range of species, not sure what pricing structure you could do, just look round some websites then decide. But also remember in this day and age you will need liabilty insurance, because you know something will happen and then all your retirement home savings might just go into someone elses pocket !!
Regards
Rob
Thanks.
So if a friend comes and uses a hide in my garden for a couple of days and I don't charge them I,m ok ??
And if he/she buys me ten bottles of grouse and buys the wife some wine (like 10 bottles) -
and keeps her happy for the weekend -I,m still OK?
John
John
If you're going to make money out of it, then PL insurance is a tax allowable expense. You need to get yourself some quotes and then build the cost of the insurance in to the price you charge - that way it's covered by your income, and you can still get some profit too. PL Insurance can be got separate to kit insurance. You'd need to talk to a few brokers, but I'd guess you'd probably be looking between £100 & £200 pa for up to £1M cover - depending on exactly what you're planning on doing/going.
So...
Profit you want to make per year = x
Profit per session = x divided by number of sessions you plan to run
Cost of PL Insurance divided by y sessions per year = PL per session.
your cost of session = PL per session + refreshments + any other overheads you incur
charged cost of session = your cost + profit you want to make per session
cost per person = charged cost of session divided by number of attendees
etc etc
If your friend gives you whisky/wine, then you're still being paid in kind and (if you're making a profit) the taxman would want his cut too.... but in monopoly money, not wine/spirits
Check your camera insurance - mine from E&L also has £2m PL. It does state that this is PL cover resulting from the use of the insured equipment, however on a workshop you would be using the equipment to demonstrate technique.
Andrew
Depends on what group you are looking to target with your workshops.
Most of the ones that I have seen tend to be for less experienced photographers and charge anything from £60 - £150 per day depending on group size (from 4-15) and how well known the photography teacher actually is. These kind of workshops have proliferated rapidly in the last couple of years as photographers have increasingly found that photography itself doesn't pay, but teaching others can, especially given the large influx of people who have become hooked via the digital photography route. So this group of people are the most numerous but.....
i) they may not know how to use their cameras and will want you to tell them how
ii) they might have anything from a point and shoot to a D3X and see point i) above
iii) they might only have a wide angle lens
iv) they won't be used to sitting still in a cold hide
v) they won't be used to sitting still at all
vi) they will expect the nature to turn up on cue, even if it is absolutely p*****g down outside
That's why most of these kind of courses are run at zoos or private wildlife collections, or use falconers to guarantee subjects. So if you go down this route at least make sure you have a foul weather plan.
A step up from this would be to offer your services to local camera clubs, many of whom will have days trips out together (but primarily at weekends). Your charges might need to be closer to £30 pp per day to get this kind of group.
The last market are obviously the experienced photogs who would like to borrow a great set-up without having to go to the trouble or time of setting one up. These workshops are pretty rare in this country, and I think your success will depend very much on the type of species and frequency that they turn up at your set ups. So keeping a log to give people an idea would be key. I'm also not sure how many would actually pay decent money for this service. I could be wrong, but my sense still is that without high impact species you might struggle.
That said, you could probably convince me that it would be a good day/weekend out.
D.
You should be aware of the Package Travel Regulations which you will need to adhere to if you're offering any combination of activity, transport and/or accommodation. The main requirement of the regulations is that you must take out a bond to protect pre-payments or else open a trust account.
This, along with PL insurance as mentioned above (although the premium is likely to be much more than £200!), and you're away!
Pete
Pete, a big thanks for posting this...
For others see Package Travel Regulations 1992
Section 3(1) states the remit and scope... namely they apply to
" packages sold or offered for sale in the territory of the United Kingdom"
so if you offer to sell foreign packages (even as a broker) I assume that these rules apply to you.
If it is not simple tuition and you fall under the remit of these regulations then be advised that a courts Level 5 fine is about £5000.00.
T
I think you would be best targeting the more experienced photographers and then charge them/us a decent rate for yourself and not only the time you put in on the day but also the time it has taken you to set the things up in the first place. Prices vary across the UK and Europe and you can pay anything from £75 - £250 a day, if you are going down the route of say one to one tuitions then again a rate between £150-£250 a day is a good rate. Your competition is fierce and you will need to look into that but take an example like the Osprey set-up near Aviemore these charge £130 for a day which is expensive but it is a blue chip species so it is in demand especially from people who try to sell their stuff. Either way John you have a good set-up and your images are your best advert. Good luck and I might be a customer
Danny
It would certainly only revolve around the woodland stuff that i have around the house in the Winter although that list is quite good. Its amazing how many folks don't get the chance to do the stuff which is common here.
Food for thought anyway.
Thanks again.
JohnR