Nature Photographers Network
This is the preserved archive of the original Nature Photographers Network. The community continues at naturephotographers.network.

Location........ location...... location......

Discussion

24 replies
Posted by Eva McDermott on September 30, 2009 at 10:35 PM
So I pose a new question...... Is image popularity all about location or quality of an image on NPN? .....with potential customers? Interested in your comments, thoughts, and experience. I find my images from more exotitic places are more appealing to others as opposed to some from my regular stomping grounds. Do others see this too and why?

Eva
Posted by Paul Duval on September 30, 2009 at 11:36 PM
This is a bit of a conudrum Eva, sometimes I find it ain't the photo that garners the comments on NPN but the photographer. Some photogs that post no matter what the image always seem to have a plethora of commentators, mostly just a short message of praise. Not that the images are not well done or deserving of praise, but I have seen images that I thought were very good and had almost no comments. Some of the Galleries don;t garner as many comments like Man and Nature. I haven't been around ( a member ) long enough to figure it all out but I've observed it. As far as the potential customer piece goes I haven't sold that many photo's not having much of an outlet, but I have found that colorful photos with dramatic light seem to do well. Iconic locations done well seem to do ok too. I hope this helps Eva.
Posted by Paul Breitkreuz on October 1, 2009 at 12:12 AM
Eva, I would like to think that it is MOSTLY the quality of the image that get both the nod or comments as well as the sale. However, there have been times in my own sales that puzzle the heck out of me. Buying customers are not the same as long-time photographers who have pretty much seen it all. I do think this gravitates the thoughts on both sides more to the uniqueness of the image, icons included. There have been many abstracts that most would pass over in the field as seasoned photogs, but are really taken in by the final image someone else captured.
With all this said, IMO location has almost nothing to do with it. Meaning call the site what you want, but unless there is an item that catches the attention in some form of emotion, it just may not fly. Just my 2 cents worth. :wink:
Posted by Steve Foss on October 1, 2009 at 12:25 AM
The image critique galleries have tremendous value.

That being said, what appeals to photography print consumers often (or I could say usually) is quite different than what appeals to photographers. And on these boards, it's photographers critiquing other photographers. As mentioned, there is value in such an arrangement, but I've had many images sell quite well among the general public that other photographers considered also-rans. On the flipside, I've had images that other photographers have raved over that have barely sold anything to the public.
Posted by Steve France on October 1, 2009 at 7:03 AM
I think to answer you directly Eva, location isnt an issue, and nor should quality be either. An image stands on its own, a combination of many qualities that appeal to us on a personal as well as a technical level.

Also, NPN is a critique forum...where you are supposed to be critique :) Be that good or bad...I want it, so I can learn. Im grateful for anyone who gives the time to comment on an image of mine. And the better the critique the more I learn. Getting praise isnt the end goal and never will be for me. I want to learn to be a great photographer.

You're images for instance vary to me personally...many are great, many are not ..but its all personal preferences. Photography is after all subjective, and like Joe Cornish says... if you like...thats enough. Obviously we are all students.. learning the great art. We must all be yieldable to be teachable. No one knows it all. If anyone thinks they are something, pride has usually kicked in :)

I still feel very awkward giving any critques. But i know this is part of the learning experience. The more you get critiqued, the more you learn and the more you learn, the more you give critique.

I do think certain landscapes appeal to photogs and the public alike. I think as photographers we all forget about what it was like when we knew nothing about photography! LOL! We just liked an image because we did. Close people to me ive found like colour... its a big deal to many... or subjects that people relate to very personally.... and photo art is popular.. not what we would call classic landscape.
I know definitely that some quality, technically accomplished photographs that we appreciate as photographers, the general public doesnt really appeal for some reason?

As Paul says... there are a few photogs on here who get 30 comments and more each time they post. They deserve it when the image is good. I try to comment on ALL images, especially those just starting or new to NPN...as we were all there, and we should all remember that encouragement is a must for beginners, as well as sharing what we have been given to others. Its a great thing photography... we shouldnt be selfish with it.
Posted by Kurt Budliger on October 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM
Big question Eva, with lots of variables to consider.

As for image popularity on NPN (I'm assuming popularity here equates to number of comments) I've noticed a few trends in my years of lurking and periodic waves of participation. Most of the time when an image receives upwards of 20 or more comments a lot of the time it's a quick response praising the shot, not an in depth critique.

The popular kids get lots of attention :biggrin: Meaning that the crew of NPN photogs that spend a lot of time, day in and day out participating and providing feedback to others tend to get more than the average number of comments per post even when the image may be fairly average. This makes sense since folks like to reciprocate when others have reached out to them in the past, nothing wrong with that. The other factor for these folks seems to be the fact they have forged relationships with other members over time and we may be more apt to respond to an image our friend made before one from a relative stranger.

Another factor that seems to influence number of comments and somewhat related to the above trend is whether or not the photog is a superstar, Marc Adamus comes to mind. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it because I'm consistently blown away by his imagery, but I sometimes wonder if he posted a shot of dog shit with a gorgeous sky above people would call it visionary (tongue firmly planted in cheek).

I find a huge factor in the number of responses here has to do with the subject matter of the shot. Hands down, big dramatic colorful shots garner more comments than images of a more intimate nature with subdued light. This is not always true (some of Vance G's recent work comes to mind), but for the most part it holds pretty true.

Another issue that I've noticed, and the one that I think affects you the most (especially since you are one of the more prolific participants since your membership began) is that there seems to be a western bias in landscape photography. Just look at back issues of OP, most of the content features images made out west and rarely is there a cover from the east coast, and when there is it's during fall foliage. Your images from the Canadian Rockies garnered lots of ooos and ahhs but your stuff from the east (lots of it very, very good) doesn't get as many. Some of this may be justified, a factor of the impact the landscape has on our emotions. The western landscape is far more dramatic and I think appeals to the part of our sole that yearns to explore.

Please don't misconstrue my comments/observations above as negative or critical of this organization and its membership. This is hands down one of, if not, the best, supportive, and constructive photography sites on the web, and that is solely due to the participants and the high standards for conduct.

As for the popularity of an image with the general public, your guess is as good as mine. Most of the general public wouldn't know really good photography it clubbed them over the head. They buy stuff that is a bargain, matches the couch or reminds them of their trip to the Grand Canyon.

Posted by bill meikle on October 1, 2009 at 11:26 AM
My experience with selling prints is that people like iconic images, also animals that are common in their area and color! The higher the quality the better it sells. Frames and mats are often a point of discussion if not discontent with customers.
Posted by Michael Lilly on October 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM
Eva,

Interesting topic!

For the past few years I've been selling at local arts/crafts shows in West Virginia, and my experience is that a majority of the time my customers purchase photographs that they can relate to directly in some way. Many times I've had people describe a pleasant memory of a particular location that is spurred by viewing a print, and oftentimes they will then make the purchase. I would like to think that these images are of reasonably high quality as well, but honestly in many cases I feel that the location itself (and associated memory in the individual) is what is completing the sale more than anything.

My more "artsy" (term used very loosely), abstract, non-location-specific, intimate stuff, that i'm generally most proud of, sometimes sells as well, but not like the locally well-known landmark stuff that the average person can easily relate to.

I find that the number of views/comments on NPN have little correlation to how an image may be received by the general public, but I find the comments from other photographers to be very valuable personally.
Posted by Eva McDermott on October 1, 2009 at 10:47 PM
BTW - I asked this question since stuff on my turf has gained me recognition and sales locally (Maine mostly and Nova Scotia some), where as pics of mine from western USA and western Canada have had more response here but less sales. It really doesn't matter to me since I am not a professional photographer........ Just curious..... been doing this (photography thing) a while....... and just curious on others' experiences. ......and NPN has been a great place for growth, for me personaly (so don't get me wrong). Just curious and asking the question. Thanks for your input. Just food for thought...... I think.
Posted by Floris van Breugel on October 2, 2009 at 12:37 AM
Eva, I think your experience, and Michael's, are right on the money. People buy pictures that mean something to them, and very often that means a picture from a place they can relate to.

In my experience, as you both have noted, how "well" an image does on NPN or other forums has little bearing on how it might do in the real world. That's definitely not always true, but for the most part I haven't seen many sales of dramatic sunset/rise skies :smile: I think we as photographer's get worked up about such things, and it becomes a competition for some people... and they lose sight of the emotional or symbolic content, which should be the principal focus of a photograph. As far as forums go, I'd say NPN is actually one of the best in promoting "deeper" images. Elsewhere it's almost purely about the 'drama' of the light. I don't recall seeing many dramatic light pictures hanging in homes or businesses...

Given an image posted here, the critiques in terms of processing, compositional fine tuning, etc. are nearly always very helpful, so I find a lot of value there. It's just good to remember that this isn't the real world when it comes to deciding what pictures to push as fine art sales.
Posted by Stan Rose on October 2, 2009 at 6:32 AM
I don't recall seeing many dramatic light pictures hanging in homes or businesses...


:confused: Ansel Adams?
Posted by Hank Pennington on October 2, 2009 at 11:13 AM
"It's just good to remember that this isn't the real world when it comes to deciding what pictures to push as fine art sales."

And that's the truth!

Here's a test for you to try if you play the craft fair game:

In addition to the photos you lovingly print, mount, frame and pump shamelessly for sales, bring along a big stack of your rejects, the test prints you made over the last year or two, but rejected for one reason or another. Make sure they're not the same subjects as your loving display. You're not doing anything else with them anyway, right?

Put them on the counter and invite your visitors to thumb through them for their enjoyment and for placing special orders. And be sure to bring an order book!

You're likely to start a riot, as people collect around your booth and call their friends to come and handle the pictures. They love it!

And I'll make a forecast:

Total revenue from your rejects will exceed that of your pets by at least 5x.

We (and I'm including myself) tend to listen to other photographers more than we listen to potential clients. And that's bad business management.

NPN reviews are invaluable for developing your "art," but remember this: We photographers seldom buy from each other. Sales are the ultimate vote for anyone selling prints, and not the kudos and post counts on NPN. There is often very little correlation between what sells well to the public and what reviews well with other photographers.
Posted by Floris van Breugel on October 2, 2009 at 11:21 AM
Ansel Adams?


right... forgot about that one :wink: colorful sunsets is what i was thinking...
Posted by Patricia Brundage on October 3, 2009 at 12:49 AM
I agree with much that has already been stated:

1. The general public buys subjects that strike a chord... i.e. local scenery, places they have visited, moody pictures and animals. Found out long ago that the emotion of the picture means more to the buyer and the quality.

2. We, as photographers, recognize the difficulty of capturing certain images and/or the vision it takes to get a new perspective of an old subject and therefore give credit for that over and above just a technically perfect image.

3. Generally, the western landscape is more dramatic and does get more acknowledgement.

4. Most photographers need the encouragement and critiques to keep growing in our craft. NPN certainly provides that recognition.

By viewing each other's work and seeing what is possible, we can all be more creative and expand our knowledge.

Posted by Scott Bean on October 4, 2009 at 10:30 AM
As far as print sales, I would absolutely agree with what has been said about being people buying photos that they have some connection with. I recently was asked to sell some prints at an event that had people coming into Kansas from 3 states. I predicted that the out-of-state visitors would be interested in buying prints of Kansas landscapes to take home as souvenirs of the visit. I was completely wrong. I don't think I sold one piece to anyone living outside of Kansas. But I did sell very well to Kansans...almost all of them to people that had memories associated with the scene in my photographs. I also noted that none of my personal favorites sold and that several prints I just threw in to fill out my inventory sold very well!

Posted by Dean Sauskojus on October 4, 2009 at 3:41 PM
Is there a survey on print sales anywhere? It sure would be helpful. I did thirteen shows one year and I finally gave up on trying to figure out what the public wants. Every show is different. I did a show not to long ago in Jackson, Wyoming, near Grand Teton National Park. I put up what I had on the Grand Tetons. Did I sell a lot of Teton photos? No. What has been posted is true but there are so many variables. I had a gal come into my booth the other day asking if I had any horse photos. This weekend the weather was horrible but I wanted to get out anyway. I ended up taking some beautiful horse images, (not wild horses) and I'm a nature photographer. You never know what people are going to buy?

I don't think I'll ever get it figured out. I just put in front of people my best guess, and as much work as possible and let it go at that.
Posted by Hank Pennington on October 4, 2009 at 11:52 PM
" I did thirteen shows one year and I finally gave up on trying to figure out what the public wants. "

I think that's what a survey would show, too. First you'd have to accurately characterize the audiences, then characterize just what's meant by print sales.

Like you, we've had our ups and downs. I think that's why our "reject" pile worked so well for sales. It presented a much larger collection of images than I had prepped for sale, plus there seemed to be some kind of magic in letting the people actually see and hold the photos. They really responded, and as I said, were soon dragging friends and family to my booth to do the same. It was an eye-opener to see how enthused and interactive they became, especially compared with the passive viewing of DO NOT TOUCH photos on the wall or countertops. Pretty good fate for all those proof prints stacked on the shelf.
Posted by Erik Stensland on October 6, 2009 at 5:03 PM
It has taken me a while to figure out what the public wants and it changes over time. I now have nearly 1,300 images that I sell through my gallery, art shows and website. I track sales with a database and have a couple of years of accumulated information. I'm finding that there is some order in the seemingly randomness of it all. In my opinion there are two main factors in print purchases. 1. Either the person has some sort of a connection to the location or 2. the color and mood is appropriate to the room they are decorating. When the two of those connect then you almost certainly have a sale. Generally, warm toned images sell better than cooler images. Winter images don't sell and large waterfall images don't sell.

As Hank and others have said photographers are generally not buyers. They have a completely different perspective, which can be very valuable but what they like isn't necessarily what the public is going to buy. If your aim is print sales to the general public then warm colorful images of locations that people love are going to be your best sellers. (At least that's my experience :smile: )
Posted by Paul Duval on October 7, 2009 at 12:26 AM
Boy Eva,

Your created the Perfect word storm, I learned allot just reading all the different replies. Thanks for the thread, looks like that ball of string was a pretty big one.
Posted by Stan Rose on October 7, 2009 at 8:29 AM
Winter images don't sell


Oh no...my favorite season--Im done for. :frown:
Posted by Hank Pennington on October 7, 2009 at 11:03 AM
"...or 2. the color and mood is appropriate to the room they are decorating...."

Boy, did you ever knock the ball out of the park with the word "decorating" when it comes to the holy grail of selling very large prints, Eric.

Our largest prints (30" x 40" and larger) sell almost exclusively through interior designers and architects to wealthy individuals, large business and public institutions of one sort or another. The individuals who buy without the professional help already have large art in their homes and want the new purchase to fit within a theme or a scheme.

And all use the term "installation." The process of a sale is driven by a real sense of just where and how a print is to be displayed before they every look at your work. Color, orientation (horizontal or vertical), framing, companion art, lighting and home decor are the drivers. They don't really get around to subject matter till it's a choice between several prints that all meet their other criteria.

Making the break into sales of really large prints (and the biggest money) is very much a case of becoming knowledgeable about installations and the world of architecture and design. You photo does not stand on its own merit, rather it stands on how well it fits into what else is going on at its new home.

One "trick" we've found that has enhanced our sales in all venues falls under my previous point about orientation. As a matter of course we work really hard to shoot both vertical and horizontal versions of each scene. I know, I know. It's especially hard to shoot the alternate version when one works so well and speaks so clearly to you.

But if sales are your goal, having both versions of a scene will garner extra sales. We're talking about flexibility of USE of your images by others. If you can present both orientations of a subject to clients, you'll make more sales.

Think of it this way: Front cover shots bring the single biggest paycheck in magazine sales, but there's only one front cover. A lot of horizontals get used within mag. If you're only shooting verts, you're missing out on a whole lot of income potential.
Posted by Erik Stensland on October 7, 2009 at 11:26 AM
I'd also say that most people who are looking for prints for their homes need them to go over the couch or over their bed. For this they generally need horizontal images. Horizontals outsell verticals in the largest sizes, even though people usually prefer the more dramatic vertical images. Like Hank I force myself to try to take an image in both orientations even if one of them doesn't work quite as well. I have lots of images that I really like but that I know won't sell well because their color is not likely to fit well with other decor. Like any business, the key is understanding your customer and their needs. If you can find the link between your passion and their need, then you may have a chance of creating a successful business.
Posted by Erik Stensland on October 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM
Stan, I have found one exception. Warm toned winter images sell, not as well as other seasons though. The image we took together last winter with the bright red sky (http://imagesofrmnp.com/photo.php?id=1097) has sold fairly well in some fairly large sizes (24"x36,30"x45",40"x60"). If the color hadn't been so warm it wouldn't have sold much at all.
Posted by Mark Metternich on October 13, 2009 at 5:56 PM
A good photo is a good photo no matter where you took it. It is the quality of the moment captured. I say it is all about light! When it does its dance and you capture it competently, well that may be the making of a great image. Also I find no corrolation between an image that people think is great here (and other forums) and the real world market. Often the ones over looked on this and other forums are my "best" according to people who are not photographers and people who actually buy my work. Recently I decided to serve my market, not photographers. It has been a real breath of fresh air.
Posted by Michael R Reynolds on October 17, 2009 at 8:47 PM
Eva,
Thanks so much for this topic. I agree with so much already said. Not that I sell a lot of prints, but I have found that people do relate more to identifiable locations. NPN is a wonderful community, but more active members do get more attention regardless of quality or location. I don't mean that as a criticism, because it is understandable. Your seascapes are inspiring to me, even though I've never had the pleasure of visiting any of your locations. That's part of the magic art. Its also understandable that folks in your area would identify with your images. If we could only truly understand the marketing aspects of selling prints, we would all sell lots more prints. Best Regards.