Posted by David Bostedo on November 4, 2009 at 8:30 AM
Buying things online can be hazardous, and over the last couple of years, I've found Reseller Ratings to be very valuable in figuring out which sites are more legit than others. Places like Amazon, Adorama, Calumet, BuyDig, B&H, etc. all would have ratings in the 6-10 range, while the scam shops would all be in the 0-2 range. Lately, however, the ratings don't seem to line up with the comments, and I think consumers are doing a disservice to themselves by being so tolerant of what I'd call "shady" practices.
One thing I'd always always avoid is any site that has to call you to "confirm your order" or shipping method, or delivery address, etc. There's no reason for it other than to try to sell you more stuff. In the extreme cases, it's a true bait and switch (they don't have what you actually ordered) or other shady or illegal practices.
B&H, Amazon, etc. will simply ship you your product in a timely fashion based exactly on what you order on the site - nothing more. Occasionally there may be a real need for an email or phone call, but it's not routine, and not for some imaginary reason.
Unfortunately, resellerratings.com has become less useful because of how accepting people are of this practice. I find myself actually having to read the comments, good and bad, to see what I really think about a site. Don't trust the numbers, since some sites seem to have very high ratings even though they engage in call backs and upsells that would have me running from them.
Here're a couple of examples (these sites were chosen because they came up in the forums - I have not used them and have nothing personally against them, other than their basic practices). Some are a little lengthy, but very interesting I think :
1) Abe's of Maine
This is a relatively well known site I think, that advertises pretty heavily. That doesn't guarantee great business practices though, although they seem to deliver on what you order. Here's a couple of examples :
I'd read a lot of reviews of Abe's , a lot of them bad, so I wasn't expecting great service and was ready for a bit of hard sell on accessories. I ordered a Panasonic ZS3 on saturday online. I received it by UPS on tuesday. Not too shabby. Great price, free shipping. I did receive a "confirmation" call monday morning where Jack tried to sell me an extra battery and memory card. I politely declined and he was totally courteous and didn't push it. A small price to pay for a very professional service. i 'm totally happy with Abe's - for me it was a very slick purchase.
This is a 5 out of 5 review. I wouldn't have given it that, given the call and push to buy more, but some people obviously don't mind.
I ordered a 32” Sharp Aquos HDTV on October 18th from Abe’s of Maine. The TV came with a free wall mount as part of a promotion, and that along with the $10 off coupon made it the best deal of any large retailer. I also noticed that they ship from Edison, NJ, which is less than 5 miles from where I live, so I figured that it would arrive quickly. More on that later.
On the 19th I received the expected confirmation call from a sales rep, who confirmed my shipping method. He then claimed that the free T-REX wall mount (model TRFM3470B) sticks out “6 inches” from the wall and offered me a $100 upgrade to a low-profile mount. I have never seen or heard of a flat mount that extends that far from the wall, and found this hard to believe. Unfortunately, I could not find any information at all about the TRFM3470B other than the product listing on Abe’s website. T-REX’s own website does not list it as one of their products, and the flat mounts that are listed all sit 1-inch from the wall. The product page on Abe’s site says that it is for “34-70 inch TVs” and is over 32 inches wide, which means that it would have been over an inch wider than the TV I just bought. Not cool.
I declined the $100 mount and the offer was promptly reduced to $50. Since this deal was decent and since I didn’t want the 32-inch wide mount, I accepted. He then asked if I wanted to purchase HDMI and audio cables from Abe’s. I explained that I already had these items and that was the end of the upselling. I was told that the TV and mount would ship within the next day and that I would receive an e-mail when they did. That never happened, so I called customer service two days later and found out that it had indeed shipped two days before, but that there was no tracking number because it was sent out using a private trucking company out of Staten Island called “R&J Home Deliver Services.” I was advised to call them to arrange a convenient time for delivery. I left a message on R&J’s voicemail the same day, which was not returned. When I attempted to call again the following week, their voice mailbox was full...
...Overall, my purchase went very well compared to some of the horror stories on here, and even though I had to pay $50 extra for the mount, I still got a pretty good deal. However, I felt that they should have been more honest about the free mount.
That review gets 4 out of 5 checks. I think it should have been much much lower, personally.
And here's a review that actually did come in at 1 check.
Their prices are great compared to other retailers. However, I will no longer attempt to order anything from Abe's. They will not ship your item unless you succumb to their attempts to upsell. My work hours are such that I could never answer their calls and they were closed by the time I could listen to the daily voicemails. I left both voice messages and emails stating that I was not interested in any other items and to ship my items as ordered* and they were completely ignored. I canceled my order after many days of this runaround.
* Heaven forbid I actually know what I'm ordering and want only what I ordered. I don't buy milk at the store only to have my time wasted at the register asking if I wanted to buy steak or chocolate mix. If you don't want my business and money, just warn me ahead of time about aforementioned tactics and I'll give my money to someone else...
Edit: Received an email regarding my review asking me to call them to talk about my experience and that they couldn't contact me directly because they had no record of my order. Subsequently I received an email from ResellerRatings stating my my review would be removed because the seller contested my order, unless I could provide proof, which I did. When I got home and checked my voicemail there was a call waiting there from Abe's left around the same time their first email was sent. I wonder how exactly they received my phone number that was listed nowhere else if not from the order information they actually had. Very deceitful tactics.
2) I was prompted to look at "TheCameraBox" based on some reports on NSN that they sell Gitzo tripods cheap, but aren't an authorized dealer.
Reading through some Reseller Ratings comments about TheCameraBox it's obvious that they are selling grey market items claimed to be US items. Lots of people mention this in their reviews, and went so far as to challenge TheCameraBox...here's an interesting excerpt from a review by "bivenslw" :
There was one small problem. Apparently this company sells import models of lenses. Of course this is the same product, but at a cheaper price and ususally does not include the USA warranty. I called and emailed customer service. I was assured that Canon would accept any warranty claims without a warranty card. I advised them that they would not and I would like to be given a 1 year Mack warranty for free since their website did not list anywhere on it that I was purchasing an import model. They emailed me back the next day and advised me that they would be sending me a 7 year Mack warranty ($29.95) value for free. It arrived in the mail two days later.
TheCameraBox has wonderful custmer service and great prices along with fast shipping and up to day tracking information. I do not think you can go wrong with this store. A+ all the way around. Wonderful!!!!!!!!!!
And this is from a "5 star" or perfect review! To me, that last paragraph doesn't match the previous...
And here's a bad review from "S C Box" that TheCameraBox actually responded to :
I ordered a Canon SD700 IS camera and got a Canon IXY 800 IS. On the box the camera came in it's written clearly "FOR JAPAN ONLY" NOT INTENDED FOR SALE OUTSIDE JAPAN. With that concern I wrote the company and their response was Canon would honor the warranty. I have no way of proving this unless the camera fails and I need to use the warranty. Simply not good business practices.
Reseller Reply [from TheCameraBox]
Posted by
9/29/06 11:23 AM
The camera is the exact same camera, and may be sold in the US. The customer was advised to contact us if he has any issues within the first year.
TheCameraBox / Camera Box
thecamerabox
Seems very shady to me, despite their 8.65/10 lifetime rating on Reseller Ratings...
Posted by Kent Staubus on November 4, 2009 at 9:08 AM
I once tried to order a Tamrac camera bag from Abes Of Maine (BTW, they aren't in Maine.) They shot me a price, and then told me that was for the bag. The foam dividers were another $16 extra. LOL! I hung up and never dealt with them again. I would have given them a zero for a rating.
Kent in SD
Posted by Mia McPherson on November 4, 2009 at 9:24 AM
I have ordered at least 5 items from Abe's of Maine, have never received poor service, the item came quickly and was exactly what I ordered.
One P & S Nikon camera I bought was terrible, not one sharp image out of 100 photos, I requested and recieved an RMA and they credited my bank account within 24 hours of receipt of the defective camera.
You can not always trust the bad ratings either some of those people would complain if opening the box gave them a hangnail.
Posted by David Bostedo on November 4, 2009 at 9:58 AM
Hey Lia - I'm not trying to suggest everyone gets bad service, or that they are doing anything illegal. I'm suggesting that people shouldn't stand for needing to be called about an online order. It's a bad practice in my opinion. And I'm suggesting that people actually read the reviews and make up their own mind, not trust the rating at ResellerRatings. (People on there seem to have very valid complaints, but in general I know what you mean about the hang nail.)
FWIW, I think TheCameraBox reviews sounded much shadier than Abe's, and it's possible that they have backed off on the type of practice that Kent mentioned.
I have one question though - did they have to call you for those 5 orders? And did they try to sell you more stuff?
Posted by Mia McPherson on November 4, 2009 at 10:23 AM
David,
I know you aren't trying to suggest they give everyone bad service or that Abe's is doing any thing illegal.
I agree with you whole heartedly about not needing the call backs that are made just for the purpose of trying to sell you more than you wanted, I don't do business with companies like that either. I had one experience where I went to order a camera from anothr company, they called me and tried to sell me more than I wanted and then when I said "no" they said I'd have to wait for the camera because it "wasn't in stock" which it clearly showed on line that it was.
I check companies out on the better business bureau before I order, if they aren't a member, I don'r order. If they have quite a few complaints filed against them, I do not order from them. And I file complaints if I have a legitimate claim against them too.
Some of the shadier places seem to hire people to use various names & email addresses to falsify the high ratings by posting false positive comments. I think it should be required that you post a valid reference number when doing commenting om the seller's rating.
As I recall I only had one call back from Abe's of Maine about a lens I ordered and they wanted to sell me the Mack Warranty for the lens, I did purchase it and I am glad I did since after the one year warranty on the lens expired I had issues with that lens. But that was the only time they gave me a call back.
Posted by Jim Bullard on November 5, 2009 at 8:56 AM
This is old, "A Tale of Woe" from a B&W web site I used to have in pre-digital days, but I suspect it is still true.
Nov. 1st - I was going to visit my Son on the other side of the country for Thanksgiving and wanted a new pocket camera to take along. I decided on the model and checked the web for a good price. Cambridge advertised the one I wanted for $198.95 so I called their 800 number. The person answering the phone put me on hold then asked brusquely what I wanted.
"I'd like to order a camera" I said.
"Which one?"
I told him and he asked what the price was on the web page. I wondered why he didn't know but told him.
"Well, okay but you realize that it has no US warrantee. If there is anything wrong with it you'll have to mail it to Japan. We have the same camera with a US warrantee."
"Um, how much more for the warrantee?"
"$238.95" he said.
I hesitated. $40 for a warrantee seemed a bit much. I really wanted the camera though and had only 22 days to get it. I caved in and agreed to the $238.95.
"Do you want a battery?"
I told him I could get one locally.
"They only sell them in pairs usually and they cost $17 but we've got a sale on today. You get the battery and the case for $9.95."
I said okay and began to wonder what the instruction book was going to cost.
"We'll ship it to you by UPS. Enjoy your camera"
Nov. 8th - I live only 2-3 days delivery time from NYC but I waited a week and still no camera. I phoned the 800 number to inquire about the order and was told I had to call their toll number. The toll free number was only for orders. I called the toll number explained that the camera hadn't arrived and asked for the shipping date and UPS tracking number.
"We ran out of that model. Give it a couple of days."
He wouldn't give a shipping date, tracking number or his name.
Nov. 11th - I figured 3 days was more than a "couple" and still no camera so I called the toll number again. Same guy. I asked again when it was shipped and he admitted that it hadn't been.
"Please Mr. Boulard" he said, mispronouncing my name "We just got it in. It will go right out to you."
Now this is where I was a real sucker. I believed him.
Nov. 18th - Still no camera. I checked with my bank. My credit card had been billed for $285.10 on the 3rd. Now I'm PO'd. I called again. Toll number and I'm on hold for 10 minutes. I'm going to hate seeing this phone bill. A guy who comes on and asks what I want. I tell him and he asks who I talked to before.
"I don't know. He didn't tell me his name. When you answered you didn't either. What's your name?"
"Just a minute" he said ( and didn't give me his name).
The guy I talked to in my previous calls comes back on the line.
"We ran out of those" he said "but we'll get it right out to you" (this sounds familiar).
"No, you won't. I'm canceling the order and I want my money refunded TODAY so I can buy something else locally" I said.
"Whatever you say" he responded "I can't say anything in this country. I'll get in trouble".
I wonder to myself if he's an illegal alien or something.
To be sure they got the message I sent an e-mail confirming that I'm canceling the order and repeating my demand that they refund the money to my credit card account immediately. They respond acknowledging that the order is canceled. No mention of the refund.
Nov.19th - I check with my bank. No credit to my account. I've been paying interest since the 3rd and under the credit carriers rules they have until their next bookkeeping cycle to process a credit. It could be a month before it shows up on my account. I am liable for the interest. FWIW - I can write a letter of protest. I'm traveling to my son's without a new camera or my money.
MORAL
When you call one of these 800 numbers to order equipment:
1) Get the name of the person you deal with. If they don't tell you, ask. If they try to avoid telling you, hang up.
2) If they try to switch you to a more expensive product, hang up.
3) Get them to confirm that they actually have the product you are ordering. If they won't, hang up.
4) If it's not in stock and you're willing to wait, ask if they will wait to bill your credit card when it is shipped.
If not, hang up.
5) Get them to commit to a shipping date. If they won't, hang up.
A HAPPY ENDING
It took two more weeks to get my money back from Cambridge. I was hesitant to try elsewhere but a friend recommended B&H. They didn't list the camera I wanted in their ads so I e-mailed them to ask if they carried it. They had it and for less money than Cambridge had wanted. I phoned an order on Friday Dec. 10 at about 10:30 AM. They had it, they would ship it no later than Monday. It might go out today, he said but they close at 1 PM on Friday and couldn't promise. Today (Tuesday Dec. 14) when I came home from work it was here. Great service, honesty and a lower price, B&H has definitely earned my recommendation.
In the years since writing that subsequent experience with B&H has proved equally satisfactory. In addition I've had good experiences shopping with Adorama, Calumet and W.B. Hunt.
Discussion
5 repliesOne thing I'd always always avoid is any site that has to call you to "confirm your order" or shipping method, or delivery address, etc. There's no reason for it other than to try to sell you more stuff. In the extreme cases, it's a true bait and switch (they don't have what you actually ordered) or other shady or illegal practices.
B&H, Amazon, etc. will simply ship you your product in a timely fashion based exactly on what you order on the site - nothing more. Occasionally there may be a real need for an email or phone call, but it's not routine, and not for some imaginary reason.
Unfortunately, resellerratings.com has become less useful because of how accepting people are of this practice. I find myself actually having to read the comments, good and bad, to see what I really think about a site. Don't trust the numbers, since some sites seem to have very high ratings even though they engage in call backs and upsells that would have me running from them.
Here're a couple of examples (these sites were chosen because they came up in the forums - I have not used them and have nothing personally against them, other than their basic practices). Some are a little lengthy, but very interesting I think :
1) Abe's of Maine
This is a relatively well known site I think, that advertises pretty heavily. That doesn't guarantee great business practices though, although they seem to deliver on what you order. Here's a couple of examples :
This is a 5 out of 5 review. I wouldn't have given it that, given the call and push to buy more, but some people obviously don't mind.
That review gets 4 out of 5 checks. I think it should have been much much lower, personally.
And here's a review that actually did come in at 1 check.
2) I was prompted to look at "TheCameraBox" based on some reports on NSN that they sell Gitzo tripods cheap, but aren't an authorized dealer.
Reading through some Reseller Ratings comments about TheCameraBox it's obvious that they are selling grey market items claimed to be US items. Lots of people mention this in their reviews, and went so far as to challenge TheCameraBox...here's an interesting excerpt from a review by "bivenslw" :
And this is from a "5 star" or perfect review! To me, that last paragraph doesn't match the previous...
And here's a bad review from "S C Box" that TheCameraBox actually responded to :
Seems very shady to me, despite their 8.65/10 lifetime rating on Reseller Ratings...
Kent in SD
One P & S Nikon camera I bought was terrible, not one sharp image out of 100 photos, I requested and recieved an RMA and they credited my bank account within 24 hours of receipt of the defective camera.
You can not always trust the bad ratings either some of those people would complain if opening the box gave them a hangnail.
FWIW, I think TheCameraBox reviews sounded much shadier than Abe's, and it's possible that they have backed off on the type of practice that Kent mentioned.
I have one question though - did they have to call you for those 5 orders? And did they try to sell you more stuff?
I know you aren't trying to suggest they give everyone bad service or that Abe's is doing any thing illegal.
I agree with you whole heartedly about not needing the call backs that are made just for the purpose of trying to sell you more than you wanted, I don't do business with companies like that either. I had one experience where I went to order a camera from anothr company, they called me and tried to sell me more than I wanted and then when I said "no" they said I'd have to wait for the camera because it "wasn't in stock" which it clearly showed on line that it was.
I check companies out on the better business bureau before I order, if they aren't a member, I don'r order. If they have quite a few complaints filed against them, I do not order from them. And I file complaints if I have a legitimate claim against them too.
Some of the shadier places seem to hire people to use various names & email addresses to falsify the high ratings by posting false positive comments. I think it should be required that you post a valid reference number when doing commenting om the seller's rating.
As I recall I only had one call back from Abe's of Maine about a lens I ordered and they wanted to sell me the Mack Warranty for the lens, I did purchase it and I am glad I did since after the one year warranty on the lens expired I had issues with that lens. But that was the only time they gave me a call back.
Nov. 1st - I was going to visit my Son on the other side of the country for Thanksgiving and wanted a new pocket camera to take along. I decided on the model and checked the web for a good price. Cambridge advertised the one I wanted for $198.95 so I called their 800 number. The person answering the phone put me on hold then asked brusquely what I wanted.
"I'd like to order a camera" I said.
"Which one?"
I told him and he asked what the price was on the web page. I wondered why he didn't know but told him.
"Well, okay but you realize that it has no US warrantee. If there is anything wrong with it you'll have to mail it to Japan. We have the same camera with a US warrantee."
"Um, how much more for the warrantee?"
"$238.95" he said.
I hesitated. $40 for a warrantee seemed a bit much. I really wanted the camera though and had only 22 days to get it. I caved in and agreed to the $238.95.
"Do you want a battery?"
I told him I could get one locally.
"They only sell them in pairs usually and they cost $17 but we've got a sale on today. You get the battery and the case for $9.95."
I said okay and began to wonder what the instruction book was going to cost.
"We'll ship it to you by UPS. Enjoy your camera"
Nov. 8th - I live only 2-3 days delivery time from NYC but I waited a week and still no camera. I phoned the 800 number to inquire about the order and was told I had to call their toll number. The toll free number was only for orders. I called the toll number explained that the camera hadn't arrived and asked for the shipping date and UPS tracking number.
"We ran out of that model. Give it a couple of days."
He wouldn't give a shipping date, tracking number or his name.
Nov. 11th - I figured 3 days was more than a "couple" and still no camera so I called the toll number again. Same guy. I asked again when it was shipped and he admitted that it hadn't been.
"Please Mr. Boulard" he said, mispronouncing my name "We just got it in. It will go right out to you."
Now this is where I was a real sucker. I believed him.
Nov. 18th - Still no camera. I checked with my bank. My credit card had been billed for $285.10 on the 3rd. Now I'm PO'd. I called again. Toll number and I'm on hold for 10 minutes. I'm going to hate seeing this phone bill. A guy who comes on and asks what I want. I tell him and he asks who I talked to before.
"I don't know. He didn't tell me his name. When you answered you didn't either. What's your name?"
"Just a minute" he said ( and didn't give me his name).
The guy I talked to in my previous calls comes back on the line.
"We ran out of those" he said "but we'll get it right out to you" (this sounds familiar).
"No, you won't. I'm canceling the order and I want my money refunded TODAY so I can buy something else locally" I said.
"Whatever you say" he responded "I can't say anything in this country. I'll get in trouble".
I wonder to myself if he's an illegal alien or something.
To be sure they got the message I sent an e-mail confirming that I'm canceling the order and repeating my demand that they refund the money to my credit card account immediately. They respond acknowledging that the order is canceled. No mention of the refund.
Nov.19th - I check with my bank. No credit to my account. I've been paying interest since the 3rd and under the credit carriers rules they have until their next bookkeeping cycle to process a credit. It could be a month before it shows up on my account. I am liable for the interest. FWIW - I can write a letter of protest. I'm traveling to my son's without a new camera or my money.
MORAL
When you call one of these 800 numbers to order equipment:
1) Get the name of the person you deal with. If they don't tell you, ask. If they try to avoid telling you, hang up.
2) If they try to switch you to a more expensive product, hang up.
3) Get them to confirm that they actually have the product you are ordering. If they won't, hang up.
4) If it's not in stock and you're willing to wait, ask if they will wait to bill your credit card when it is shipped.
If not, hang up.
5) Get them to commit to a shipping date. If they won't, hang up.
A HAPPY ENDING
It took two more weeks to get my money back from Cambridge. I was hesitant to try elsewhere but a friend recommended B&H. They didn't list the camera I wanted in their ads so I e-mailed them to ask if they carried it. They had it and for less money than Cambridge had wanted. I phoned an order on Friday Dec. 10 at about 10:30 AM. They had it, they would ship it no later than Monday. It might go out today, he said but they close at 1 PM on Friday and couldn't promise. Today (Tuesday Dec. 14) when I came home from work it was here. Great service, honesty and a lower price, B&H has definitely earned my recommendation.
In the years since writing that subsequent experience with B&H has proved equally satisfactory. In addition I've had good experiences shopping with Adorama, Calumet and W.B. Hunt.