Just a thought

"Just a thought" was the title of a posting by Stephen Kaluski last June, where he wondered quite where the forum was going and the ensuing discussion picked up on a few issues, including why so few comments on some pictures.

I hope the Mods will not mind me raising this topic again, but it does seem to me that the problem is, if anything, getting worse. The posting guidelines include a suggestion from staff members that you should comment on at least five pictures for every one that you post. It is clear that a number of members, and, worryingly, especially newer members, are not doing this. Personally I really value the constructive critique I get from a number of people on this site, but it does often seem to be the same few who take the time and trouble to do it.

Have others noticed this? Or is November just getting to me?

David

No David
I dont think it is you at all.
It is one of the annoying aspects of UKNP and I have to say the mods said they would be doing something about it last time. I see no difference.
Its one of the reasons why I come and go a bit.
If a contributor can post a reply to his or hers image then they should be able to pass critique on someone elses.
I for one would be in favour of post one, comment on five, but I realise that may be difficult to implement.
Over the last few days I havnt passed comment as PC at home has gone belly up, so am doing this on works PC and its not that pratical.
Forgot to say while we are at it the other annoying thing is when people name drop and advertise.
This forum as I understood it was for image critique. I have no interest in who helped who and if it was taking at ...... place.

Major.

David

I couldn't agree more with your observation following from Stephen's thread. I too find great value in critique. But when topics are posted, questions raised and then item ignored why bother. Seems to me more effort is put into ego massaging in cliques.

It's a great pitty because the original format has great value for all.

Hi David.

I am one of those you refer to, and Like Major, I come and go from time to time.

In respect of the "coming and going", I think there is an element of disenchantment in that sometimes one posts a picture and receives only two or three comments. If this happens I feel less inclined to post for a while.

With reference to not replying, there is no excuse. If I want people to reply to my posts, the very least I can do is reply to others. I hadn't picked up on the "1 post per 5 replies" suggested ratio, but will endeavour to do so in the future, starting with this one.

Thanks for bringing this up again.

I agree there is a bit of a trend going on here. Personally, I try to comment as much as I can on others images as I find it valuable to my own picture taking. Taking the time to look at others work and analysing why I like or dislike it can be very helpful to my own thought processes. It is difficult to pass negative comments but it has to be done if critique is to be of any use and I hope that those whose pictures I have commented negatively on understand that it is nothing personal. Commenting on good images can also be awkward as so often you are restricted to using the same old 'nice picture' routine as others may have made the pertinent comments earlier. I really enjoy passing the first comment on an image (good or bad) as I can then start with a blank canvas and follow up to see if others agree with my reasons for making the statements I make. Conversely it is also good to be shown when my reasoning is wrong.
The standard of work on this site is so high that often it is difficult to say anything other than praise. Lets face it, we all like that when it comes our way.
I agree with Major that some high profile names appear to comment only when they have a picture currently on the page or when they appear to have a 'project' to advertise.
I dont see how the Mods can implement anything other than encouraging people to comment.
Personally the big influence on the number of images I critique is time. I am currently in the position of having some spare time in work with access to a machine and so have the luxury of time to comment. I can appreciate that others may not have that luxury and yet would like comments passed on their own work.
Finally, whatever the current situation, I still maintain that joining this forum has been the single most important factor in the improvement of my photography.
Robert.

Hi David

Yes a very valid point - like Major lately I come and go a little due to pressure of work but try to participate fully with the general aims of the forum. There is very little the mods can do to improve this ratio but we can as members. If you see that a member or visitor clearly is not entering the 'spirit' of the forum then don't comment on their images - when they see '0' comments they will soon either stop posting or give a little in return.

I would also like to see non-members locked out of all but say the first 6/8 postings with no right to post or comment!

David

It is very true but i suppose it is the same with any similar forum.

For me it is very simple:

if you have time to upload an image, you have time to comment on an image.

One reason i have stopped my participation is exactly this reason! Also what i have noticed is the forming of shall i say little "cliques".

As soon as a "mate" puts an image on, you see a respons of another "mate", who ONLY comments on his mate's image...if you get what i mean, and after that disappears again......

There is a very simple solution to it all:

DO NOT COMMENT ON IMAGES OF THOSE THAT DONT TAKE THE TIME TO COMMENT ON OTHER IMAGES OR YOUR OWN IMAGES....SO CALLED HIGHFLYERS INCLUDED.

I bet that in no time you will get more response.

Rene de Heer

Its a problem that rears its ugly head on every forum I have been on. Majors points especially and DK s are very valid I think. I very often don't comment on very good shots because there is often nothing to say except "Nice one " !
I also try and even it out - showing an interest in newcomers and old friends alike.. I don't like commenting on a pile of pics just before I put one one myself which some do. A while back I was having connection problems so I posted a few and put hardly any comments on. Did the reaction to my pics drop? - it certainly did.? I too have mixed feelings about the references to trips out and buddy comments , but its not that big a deal. I suppose Iv'e done a bit myself.
There is certainly "an air" on the forum at the moment not quite the same as it was.
I too think the forum should be for members only - why join if not ?
Cheers
JohnR

You make an interesting point, but I don't think most people come and go for any other reason than pressures of work and pressures of life. I for one look at this site every single day, almost without fail, where ever I am in the country (I get around a bit) but, I sometimes just don't have the time to comment, I look every day because some of the fantastic pictures posted are an inspiration! (and after all - If I am inspired to take a picture and better myself then hasn't some good come of it?)

John makes a good point above - there are so many fantatsic shots posted that what can you say other than - nice one! - after a while posting comments such as that becomes worthless, to both you and the picture poster - this is a critique forum after all - so don't post at all - but then you run the risk of being accused of not posting enough - so maybe you can't win!

I think personally this forum has changed, certainly in my 18 months or so here, there are a lot of "old boys clubs" so to speak and I don't think this is what it should be about - but very little I think the mods can do about that...

Anyway - I think we should all go out and be inspired to take better photographs by partisipating in this forum - people are people and there's nothing that can change that..

cheers

Colin

I dont think it is important whether you comment on a excellent image or not...even if the comment that you make is something like excellent, or fab! It is all about reciprocity....and therfor appreciated, it will mean that (in theory) the poster will reply to one of your own images in return...well thats the way it should work...right?
On top of that: everyone on this forum will put their BEST images on anyway..........
Rene de Heer

Interesting.. As I often post comments when I have the time to post an image.. It's not for the want of buying interest but simply that is when I have had the time to sit and go through some of the work that is put on the site. I try and flick through most days and admire the work and drop in and out as time allows. However I feel this is something of just about any forum. People get to know one another, people go on field trips together or workshops and they become more familiar and can share experiences like-for-like..

I do try and comment where I can and I try to be constructive at times and also add the 'Nice Image' if I think it is, nothing wrong with that in my opinion and I look at this forum for inspiration and for the odd chance to share something of interest or different from the 'norm' of catalogue/library shots..

There really are some talented people out there and it's a pleasure to view some of the work all are willing to share on here.

Forums are forums and this perceived problem is cyclic and will rear it's head again in another few months I'm sure. But in the meantime keep taking images and sharing them with us so that even if we don't get round to commenting we can admire from a distance and continue to be inspired.

Don't Worry - Be Happy..!!

Brett

I haven't commented much for ages principally because the last time I was out with my camera was in May this year, so I have had very little to post this year. However I seem to be one of the few who is prepared to stick their neck out to give a fuller critique of my perception of the shot rather than the "nice shot" brigade of contribution.

Should we try to enforce "you must comment on 5 shots to every 1 posted" will only further propogate the "nice shot" form of response, it does nothing to try and foster the fuller critique debate going. At its worst it encourages "fanboy" posting rather than reduces it

It is a tricky subject, the more experienced/professional/semi professionals don't really want to give away their hard won experience for free, especially these days where digital AF high speed cameras and IS lenses have made capturing a higher standard of image - the main fee earning potential is moving towards workshop income rather than image sale. So for this reason it is wrong to castigate our fee earning colleagues not passing on "golden nuggets"

That said when was the last time anyone posted - "taken under very harsh contrasty conditions, really needed fill flash to control the shadows, try using .........." etc etc. What we tend to get is "great shot under tricky lighting conditions" NO NO NO NO NO....... what a most unhelpful contribution that really is. - It is this sort of contribution that needs cracking down on otherwise no one learns or moves on from bad technique.

As someone relatively new to this forum I can say that I have tried to find time to look at the work of others and at this stage have felt most compelled to comment on the shots that have captured my imagination or of a high standard (in my opinion). The overall quality is high and it is a pleasure to browse through so many great shots.

I don't really feel I have earned the stripes (here at least) to be more forthright just yet. I can say that the critique offered by the more established members is very valuable and I hope frank appraisals can continue.

I have obviously hit a nerve here, thanks for your comments. I will respond to a few of the points raised. Firstly, I think that Colin and Lawrence are right. There is little the Mods can do about this, posting instructions suggest the 1:5 ratio of postings to comments, but it cannot ever be more than a recommendation, any action to shore that recommendation up has to be up to all of us. The content of those comments is, of course, another matter. Whilst I don't do it for all great shots, there are too many, I personally like to tell someone when they have produced something I have enjoyed looking at. Saying something is brilliant or great may not help the individual photographer to improve, but it does let them know someone else appreciates their work.

Name dropping and advertising (within the rules) are things I am less sure about. If someone has taken me out to a site, or showed me a technique that is new to me, I think they deserve the credit at least as much as Nikon or Canon do for making the camera with which the shot was taken. As for advertising the site where the picture was taken, sometimes I think that is useful. Personally I try to restrict this to known sites, such as reserves. Keeping other sites quiet though is more about stresses on the site or wildlife than anything else.

No doubt we will continue to disagree on a number of these points - but isn't that what a forum is all about?

Thanks again for all the contributions so far.

David

Hi all,

Interesting that this subject has come up again so soon. I agree with most of what has been said, but I guess there is nothing that the mods can do about it really. I’ve drifted away from contributing to the forum lately, mostly due to a mountain of coursework, but also due to points that earlier posters have raised. I also started to question why I was posting an image when 90% of the time I could predict who would comment (and who wouldn’t) and what would be said. Some obvious nits really are overlooked atm, mostly due to the clique phenomenom. I look through the images everyday though and try to comment when I have the time. I think a break every now and then is a good thing personally, all part of the growing and learning process. I still think this forum is the best of its kind and hope to be back posting soon.

Marcus, stripe earning really isn't necessary, you have valid opinions like everybody else.

Mike, I feel that the fee earners should (and usually do) give advice and critique, if they don't then why are they on here, Advertisement? Its a CRITIQUE forum, not a gallery for fans or a source of workshop income.

Cheers,

Lewis.

Hi David, I could feel my ears burning

My concerns of recent times are that we are losing good, constructive, positive, 'professional' comments and advice and breeding more of a 'nice image' which is really of no value, as a lot of people look to this site for help to improve their photography, I think? Possibly along the lines of what Mike has already commented on in part. Comments good or bad are for the individual to distil from and I hope make the author' ponder, think and perhaps help future photography. In addition, to have a roll call of who was there, who paid for the bacon rolls etc really has no real merit or substance to the image. It is always good to have diversity of images throughout the year rather than ie truck loads of deer because its Autumn, in fashion and everyone is doing that

Perhaps in the New Year the 'wind of change' may come in and that in some way it addresses certain points that have been raised over the past 12 months and the Forum gets back to a sharper site where we all can learn is some way and benefit from the contributions made by the members small or big.

Finally, at the end of the day the Forum is only as good as the contributions posted. It is in our hands where the Forum goes, no one else.

I hope it doesn't go members only - having been posting here since 2003 I would hate to stop being able to view it. I haven't joined as if I did that with every community forum that I was involved with I would be broke!

I don't post often I reply occasionally if I have some constructive advice. This place has some amazing talent and we can all learn from it. I run various commercial activities around photography, hence my reluctance to post - I don't want it to be seen as advertising in any way.

Some interesting points raised. I think a point that we should all agree on is that the worse thing we can do is to ignore an image. It is very demoralising to see your image on 100 views and 1 or 2 comments and inevitably makes you wonder what it is that people aren't liking about the image (and wonder why they won't tell you!).

I would far rather have 10 negative (but constructive) comments than none at all. Also, I think 'nice shot' comments can be useful to confirm that you've got things about right. As I say, the worst thing we can do is to ignore an image, any comment is preferred to that.

Matt

I'm someone who does not comment that much mainly because many of the photographs are pretty good and I can't see a lot of point in saying nice pic as most of them are. I am loath to tell someone they have taken a bad picture also I never know what point people are in their photography and it just seems mean to suggest that your pictures are not up to scratch. I will try to be more vocal in the future but could someone tell me if I'm being mean.

I don't consider myself a high flyer or big hitter but I do run a lot of workshops, breaks and trips and Mike S is right, it is becoming an increasingly important part of anyone who is looking to earn their living from this particular game.
That said I have always adopted a personal code of conduct when it comes to posting on here and never looked to plug, push or promote anything - if there's an image from a trip I want to share then so be it, but hopefully in a way that is in no way geared to promoting the trip itself or even refering to it as such. For those that do as I do I believe this integrity to be important.
In the same way I try to comment significantly more I post - often as time for the latter (and those who know me know how behind I am on processing will testify to this and especially this week as my PC has crashed ) is of a real premium for me.
At times this will draw me to people I know or whose work I particularly admire - that's human nature I acknowledge and part of what a forum offers is surely an environment for people who do know each other to communicate in the same way as it offers the chance to interact with strangers.
Overall though, and I'm guessing like the majority of you, I find this a fascinating forum to visit (it's the only one I do as I just don't have the time) and I think the standard overall is very very high hence why I visit.
Don't let it die, just give and get from it what you consider to be important and of value to you and others according to your own personal code.

Mark

As an amature I have my fair share of low commented postings so I have found this an interesting read.

As I am new to the hobby (relatively new ) I find it hard to offer advice as I don't have much compared to most of the users of this forum and some may find it patronising when I give crit to an image which is a lot better than I could ever take, if that makes sense? And it gets a bit boring just replying with "Great shot" so I end up just drooling... So how is someone who is new to the forum suppose to get their post count up without just posting "great shot" or "great light" e.t.c.

I don't think forcing people to make postings by using the "5-1 thing" would work, but what do I know

Same views as Major, and the very reason ive not renewed my membership, and have spent less and less time viewing this forum.

Alan

Just one good,possitive word can lift someone and help them grow and I try to comment on images in that reguard as I believe we never stop learning,and to share your wisdom and help someone is a fine thing in my book.As someone who has only been on UKNP for nearly a year I have learned so much,good and bad,very greatful to people for their kind words and comments,but still cannot understand why people overlook images and just don't want to comment/help as this can come in many different forms.I have helped people on here in the short time I have been here so we all can,instead of the 'clicks' on here,break it yourself and do something good and help someone,as know one wants to feel unliked and passed over.I speak from my heart and will always try to help others, I hope we all can

Call me a pessimist, but I doubt that this will be the last time I see such a thread. Many valid points raised, but unless the 5:1 actually forms part of the participation conditions, people will continue to comment, view, or critique as and when they see fit.

I read this with interest ,until recently i have not posted any pictures for about three months and not put any comments on yet i posted a picture a couple of days ago and got a nice responce which is good for a very novice photographer like my self but sometimes i have put pictures on that maybe are not up to standard and i would like to know why?
As for comments i sometimes feel that i am not qualified to make comments apart from those i really like ,and i did not like it on the forum a few months ago when i did think things where getting a bit bitchy so i gave it a rest.After saying this it must be a bit difficult to remedy this situation and i am sure the mod's do there best and i am looking forward to some happy posting.
Keith.

I think the forum goes through phases and I agree it does seem to have been quieter in terms of posting and commenting. It'll turn around again I suspect. I started with the Avian parent site and now use both. They both go through the same phases. I did dip into another site and didn't find it to be any different in terms of the issues raised here. The dreaded "time" factor is a major one for all of us (I got home at 9.45) and for most of us (?), this is a hobby that helps us escape from the daily pressures. Therefore I do very much appreciate ANY feedback, good or bad. I do also very much enjoy and learn from looking at the images presented, but honestly cannot comment as often as I would like to do.

Maybe I should "drop" the avian site to allow more time to comment here, but there are elements of both I like - the main one being the facility to post a larger image. In my view, critique is much easier on a larger image. Maybe that would liven things up a bit.

Also, I believe there were competitions before I subscribed (eg editor's picks etc), and there was a temporary resurrection of this a while back. There is also the facility for posting anonymously on the parent site. The weekly challenge on the parent site stimulates thought and can focus the mind. Maybe these issues could be discussed again?

Even if nothing changes, I am still inspired more by this forum than anything else.

One point that was raised last time, by and admin I think, is that there are many people that are not members, but who like to view the pictures, before I registered I was one of those people, and this forum is great for inspiration when your just starting out.

A lot of effort has gone into THIS thread . . . .!
Hmmmm!

Just had a re think.
Maybe pics posted should be titled exactly they are
ie Blackbird, Fly , Otter etc,etc.
I am as guilty as anybody. We used ambiguous titles to bget people to look. Is that good or bad!?
Look at some of my titles.-for example.

JohnR Oh dear !

Hi,


My thoughts here, I have been a member of this forum longer than some, it is now much larger and popular than when I first started looking, even though I am a full time photographer with many years experience I learned a lot back in the early days and still do when I leave my comfort zone as I have recently.

It is my belief that this is not just a forum but a community, Just under 2 1/2 years ago when my life took a traumatic change this community was a great comfort to me. For thses reasons I do try and help others, but time is always against commenting or offering advice on every single image so I too am often guilty of the 'nice image' syndrome. I have met many members sometimes to help them but mainly as great company when on honeypot shoots and I believe it is right to acknowlege this as an aside to the topic.

As to critique, it is a very difficult art, I appreciate that to some critiquing an image particularly one by a long standing member or a known name is very hard especially if you are relatively new, but, trust me those comments are probably the most sought after and usefull, you haven't become 'bogged' down in a style, you are viewing the image with fresh eyes and will probably see things that those of us that are set in our ways wouldn't. I regularly judge and am involved with competitions, I dread camera club judging.

Over the years there have been lots of changes and issues, that I think is the nature of the forum, people come and people go, we are lucky here as this is the most active UK/Europe forum with a wide diversity of experience, lets make the best of it....

All the best

Phil

As expected, all those commented here exceeds the 5:1 ratio (all stats are at the beginning of each of our posts) so I wouldn't beat ourselves up.

I would like to use this opportunity to thank all of you that have given me feedback over the two years that I've been on this forum (that's practically everybody on this thread!). I do appreciate 'em very much, even though sometimes I don't 'reply' - sometimes I need time to digest your comments. Any yes, for me the standard here is by far the highest. So keep up the good work folks & enjoy!

Des

Coming back to this thread this morning I notice a lot of comment on the issue of 'nice shot' postings. Mike Smith mentioned that we need more constructive criticism and he is correct. However, there is a real limit to what can be written about an image. The overall standard on here is extremely good so criticism tends to be minor anyway. Generally speaking the various relative points have been aired within the first 2-3 replies. What would Mike have us do after that, repeat the same information? post no further comment?. If I log onto the forum and find a raft of new images which have none or very few comments then my critique is usually as detailed as I am qualified to write. If the images I haven't seen have had extensive comments then after a quick scan through those comments I am usually left with 'like it / dont like it'. I will still post those comments as at least it will indicate to the photographer that I have viewed the image and have expressed my views.
I would echo the comment from PhilH... NEW MEMBERS .. dont feel afraid to comment on anything you see here. If you genuinely think an image is crap, say so. It will make the photographer think again about his/her image. Your opinion is as important as anyone elses.
Robert

Come on folks, let’s practise what we preach

My last post of a mallard has received 90 views and drawn 4 responses – only a few who have contributed to this thread bothered with mine. The shot I posted was chosen deliberately to leave room for comment (in other words, it ain't one of my best) and yet it remains largely ignored!

This thread contains lots of comments of good intention and ideas but when it comes down to it we don't put our money where our mouths are. Human nature? Guess so!

Cheers,
Chris

Hi Chris,
re above. A bit of a conundrum I fear. If I were to go back to that image and read what has already been said I would think that all nits had been covered. That would leave me a few options
1 Just say 'nice shot' and sod the members who don't like 'nice shot' comments.
2 Just say 'Don't like it' and sod the members who don't like 'don't like it' comments.
3 Look at it, think to myself, 'Like it but feel dull for not offering any new critique so wont say anything.
4 Look at it, think to myself 'Dont like it but dont want to hurt anyones feelings so say bugger all then realise I'll be hurting feelings if I say bugger all and so I'll promptly have a nervous breakdown!!
As Mealanie Frontage might say on 'Janet and John'.... what fun.
It's a tricky business this photography.
All the best
Robert.

Hi Robert

The photography is the easy part.

For me it is simple - this is a public forum with a set of rules. I try not to break those rules and I'm always honest when I comment. I'm courteous and try to be constructive and if I feel strongly about something I'll debate my point. My feedback is never a personal attack.

If you post here then you have to take the rough with the smooth; the good and bad comments. Most people seem to be able to cope with that.

As for the other stuff discussed in this thread: I don't have any time for cliques, back slapping(or back stabbing), or ego massaging - I'm here simply to discuss natural history pictures and surrounding topics. Anything else; not interested. Misuse of the forum is a matter for the Mods.

There will always be a minority that push the boundaries but for me the images are the interesting stuff.

Cheers,
Chris

I couldn't agree more. Succinctly put
All the best
Robert.

I've been a regular participant of the forum right from the early days, before even the switch to the 'new' format etc and I used to be a member BUT I decided not to renew my membership as this same problem surfaced years ago - I commented on others but never got many comments back and so in the end became more of a 'lurker'. Things now are actually a lot better than when there were less forum attendees.

My point would be that if you restricted it to members only you would never get any new blood joining - surely that would mean the death of the forum or at the very least turn it into a bit of a 'boys own' club. If I couldn't post an image then I would never get back into the forum again as I would feel pretty much excluded.

Funny to see the whole post/replies ratio cropping up again - its been going for years and I think the only fair way is to have an unofficial one, like a 1:5 (or 1:8) or something - its only polite, and simply like thanking a driver at a pedestrian crossing - not a law but a good custom to reciprocate courtesy and respect.

On another note I certainly noticed how there were always certain members who would never reply to my posts for whatever reason I dont know but it did leave a sour taste. However, as in any walk of life cliques will inevitably form and I see no problem/solution with this - its just human nature, don't take it personally.

Sorry, bit of a ramble really!

What about a script that calculates the ratio of comments to images and if under 1:5 then the poster cannot post again until they have made up the difference Easily done but some people just don't want to comment or haven't time.

I for one have no time for photography let alone processing images and then posting images, but I sometimes have 10 mins when I can browse a number of images quickly. I will rarley comment due to this time restriction, but when I do eventually have the time to post an image, I'd feel a bit let down if there were very few comments just because my ratio was low or I hadn't been able to comment regularly.

Stresses of life and human nature