This is by far my favorite forum, especially ESS, and I get a lot out of it. I put in the time, and have developed friendships.
I have come across some newcomers to the forum or talked to browsers of it and there is no denying the talent we have, but they say its a back pat club on certain people and other posts get totally passed by. I am probably guilty of this myself, as you want to comment on images of people who comment on your posts.
Anyways, lets try to step it up and give critiques to all images, not just the power users. And if you don't have the time, skip my image to give another image a more thorough critique. Hope I don't regret that too much =)
One last thing, and this is not a pat on the back, I put time in and try to keep a 10-1 ratio of comments/image. And with my time, I shy away from commenting on people who have a ratio under 3/1(barring newcomers). You get what you give and this site has given me so much, I don't feel like spending time on "takers".
Off the soap box...
Thanks,
Paul
Posted by Mike Moats on January 14, 2010 at 8:50 AM
Posted by Wayne Jones on January 14, 2010 at 9:20 AM
Excellent resolution, Paul.
I am kind of sporadic participant here, and flit from one gallery to another. Thus, I just can't critique "all images," but I'll try to follow your lead and comment on more images.
My personal rule is that whenever I post an image, I try to comment on the 5 images posted just before mine in the same gallery, before I browse the page looking for an image that catches my eye. Whenever possible, I try to say something more specific than "nice shot."
completely agree Paul, I always try to comment on as many images as possible (mostly the first ten in a gallery), but I do see that when strapped for time I tend to favour certain people. Time to stop looking at names!
Posted by Keith Bauer on January 14, 2010 at 9:56 AM
Agreed 100%. Not only should folks strive to comment with some nice ratio with comments to posts, but comments like "Great shot" are not helpful. There are some remarkable images posted here by some very talented photographers, but the only way we all get better is hearing constructive criticism. It's a great community. Let's make it even better with honest feedback
Posted by Tom Nevesely on January 14, 2010 at 10:37 AM
"...but comments like "Great shot" are not helpful."
I don't agree with that 100%. Sure, more specific comments will help the photographer/poster in a specific way or area but a simple comment like "great shot" will at least tell them that the shot connects with someone.
Posted by Bret Edge on January 14, 2010 at 10:37 AM
Paul:
Very relevant post. Thanks for starting this discussion. I agree that the best way for all of us to benefit from NPN and the galleries is to participate actively, post photos and leave critiques on photos. I can't say that I maintain a 10 to 1 ratio but I always leave, at the very least, 5 critiques for every photo I post. It's just the right thing to do. I also believe that it is important for posters to have a thick skin and be open to constructive criticism. We all benefit by reading thoughtful critiques, regardless of whether the image being critiqued is our own or someone else's. And, there is MUCH benefit to writing a critique.
I've actually written a blog post about using NPN and a couple other photo forums to become a better photographer. Just haven't published it yet. I'll publish it early next week for those who are interested.
Great thought...would love to see it come to fruition.
I began posting on this site about 6 1/2 years ago and have maintained a comment/post ratio on the IC forums of 35:1 or better. My own rule, particularly on ESS where posts scroll into oblivion in short order, is that if I wasn't prepared to post at least 20 comments I wouldn't post an image of my own.
At some point last year I became particularly discouraged with the number of ESS images posted by people who clearly weren't taking the time to comment at all. I don't mean these folks weren't commenting on my posts; they weren't commenting on anyone's posts--except (just to rub it in) their own. This left a bad taste in my mouth, and crushed a great deal of my own motivation to comment on the images of others, and with my own rule about commenting and posting, I decided if I wasn't going to comment I couldn't very well post my own images without being a hypocrite. And so I've basically sat on the sidelines and done nothing for the past five months or so.
I recognize that this is my problem, not the site's or anyone else's, and I'll have to see if I can figure out a way to extract myself from this box.
Kerry, I feel like you are almost punishing yourself for others behavior. I agree, some are selfish, and once I pick up on them, I ignore them. Sorry, but this is a great resource made up of a great community, and it takes input to stay that way. Some come in and abuse that and I really feel they don't deserve this resource.
I understand the time restrictions, and also some newcomers feel they aren't qualified to offer critiques, but giving a critique is just as useful as getting one.
Hope to see more of your posts in the future Kerry.
I've taken a new approach to commenting, which I think is a great way to get away from the back patting, cherry picking posts, and keeps a 10+ to 1 ratio. Before I post, I comment on the 10 prior images, regardless of 'quality' or photographer, and try to give some useful feedback. Then I'll comment as I see fit or have time outside of that.
It disheartens me too when I see people abusing the site with low post-comment ratios.
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 14, 2010 at 3:12 PM
Hey Paul,
Thanks for your comments - this is certainly a topic that pops up just about annually. And it's a valid one and I agree with most of what you're saying. And like I mentioned in a recent thread, the ones that read this usually aren't the problem - and the ones who need to read this, probably won't.
Just to be fair though.... IMHO, many (not all of course) of the images that don't get large numbers of comments are from those who don't have high comment/post ratios. So you say you want to seek out those posts with few comments and help those not getting responses... but then discover they don't have the ratio that meets your requirements and don't comment. Thus, the problem propagates. So it works both ways.
Is there a "back pat club?" Many would say, yes, of course. Others might say, show me the club charter? who's the president and why can't I join?.... Seriously... it's human nature to associate in groups, whether real or perceived; with borders, members or not. I originally joined NPN exactly for this reason that the other sites were too buddy-buddy and not very much in terms of critical and constructive comments. Well, guess what, it's not all that much different here... But what I personally have found is a family; a community of photographers that I've come to respect and have no doubt, learned from.
Perhaps some may think I'm part of that club; maybe even the president. I certainly acknowledge that I get an above average number of comments. I acknowledge that and attribute it to 3 things:
1.) Moderator. There's certainly some additional comments/respect simply because of that status. 2.) I comment more than anyone except for Tony Kuyper - and I'll never catch him. But I participate - not just with atta-boys, but provide hopefully constructive and valuable feedback. I get a lot of reciprocal responses and lastly, 3.) I think the images I post are pretty decent.
Some of you probably have figured out my posting patterns. Like others, I will comment on a bunch of images first - usually the entire first page and anywhere from 20-50 comments. Then I post my image and let it sit. I do my best to comment on everyone's images, including my "buds" (and yes we all do have friends that exist beyond NPN...) and I will seek out those who have not received many comments. And yes, I will occasionally skip a poster who chooses not to participate - but I will usually make a friendly effort to encourage them.
Another factor is that so many folks somehow don't feel "qualified" to comment. I recently received a comment basically saying they didn't feel qualified to comment on my image... but guess what, they went ahead with a comment anyway. FOLKS, if you can take anything away from my comment here, it's that EVERYONE IS QUALIFIED to offer an opinion. If you want to tell me or Guy Tal that you don't like the image or would like to suggest a crop, then go for it.
In the end, one must make out of it what you put in to it. Like you say Paul, if you give and provide help with comments and feedback, you will in return receive. Pay it forward... what goes around comes around... many sayings that say the same thing. Is every post going to get 30, 40 or 50 comments? No, it's not going to happen. And let's all be honest too, the images that get 40+ comments are without question, the images with the most impact and appeal to the audience that views them. There are certainly phenomenal works that don't receive high numbers of comments, but probably appeal to a narrower group of folks. Some people don't post any more simply because of that reason.
Does this mean if you post 10 comments that you should receive 10 comments when you post an image? Of course not. But rather than look at in a way where you want to force behavior by counting comments or having some sort of trigger.... and rather than look from the sidelines.... I would say, join the party! Engage yourself. Help someone who knows less than you. Offer advice and commentary. Ask questions, answer questions.
Oh, and lastly (I promise) I want to say something about "English." NPN stretches around the globe and there seems to be an increasingly number of folks where English is NOT their native language or perhaps not even a second language. In my opinion humble opinion (IMHO) only BAD English can be spoken by folks who's English is their primary language. In other words, you do not have to apologize for your "bad" English. The good news is that photography is a universal language!
Ok, done for now. Thanks for listening.
Lon
Posted by Jim Bullard on January 14, 2010 at 3:56 PM
My pattern for commenting is to say something if I feel that I have constructive advice to offer. Otherwise I tend to look and move on. An exception would be if an image is really outstanding, not just technically but it really grabs me, then I'll post a "great shot" comment though I try to tell why I think so. I don't do or have a particular appreciation for wildlife or avian photography so I rarely even look at those. I'm a landscape guy and feel it would be presumptuous of me to critique a genre that I have little interest or no experience in. I've never considered the number of comments made by a photographer when looking at or commenting on anyone's images. Either I feel I have something to offer them or I don't. Whether or how many others they've commented on the work of others is not part of my equation. I've never even checked to see. Some people are just starting out and don't feel they have anything to offer. They're just observing, reading and learning. That's okay with me. YMMV
Posted by John Tobias on January 14, 2010 at 4:08 PM
Lets not be too hard on ourselves!. I have only been a member for a few months but I have been involved in photography one way or the other for over 50 years. The digital/computer age leaves me struggling a bit. I like to say "nice photo or good image" we as a people don't say nice things enough. Also, while I do appreciate the suggestions, I am not one to spend any length of time making a face more sharp, or darkening the white space under a tail, or minute changes. I lack the skill, and probably the computer program to do it with. I enjoy the photos posted in all of the galleries, except the ones that try to make negative comments about zoos, but that is a very personal item. I would guess the majority of photographers who post to NPN do not make the majority of their income from nature photography, I don't I am retired and have fixed income. But I so enjoy taking photos, I now have the opportunity to do what I have always wanted, to be a nature photographer, for myself! NPN lets me post my photos, and I try to make sure they are at least nice ones, but it is for my enjoyment and I hope that of others. I will never go to India, but love to see the nature photographs the folks from that region post, now we seem to be getting more from central Europe. To me it is exciting to open a gallery and see nature photos from around the world. So, I guess I better stop, but in closing comments are good, but lets not make it so technique oriented we miss out on seeing great, good and nice nature photos from around the world.
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 14, 2010 at 4:41 PM
John,
Excellent comment and good points. This makes me want to remind folks as well how important it is to provide enough information with your posts. A pet peeve I have is when someone just posts the image with no info what so ever. If you want help and critique around processing or composition, let the viewer know that. And for folks like John, tell us you just would like to share the image and find out if folks like it - not what the new sharpening techniques are. Makes sense.
But it's all based on what you, as the original poster, reveal to the community. And the more you engage and share, the better and more focused feedback and comments you'll get.
Lon
Posted by Lon Sharp on January 14, 2010 at 5:21 PM
This may be a "repeat" discussion, but a valuable one! I seek mostly wildlife photos when I am afield, so consider myself a member of the fauna gallery and most of my postings have been there. I enjoy visits to other galleries and sometimes post there, but in a quite random way. All that said, it is clear that some galleries ( especially EES) have lots of viewings and comments compared to some of the others. As a frequent "fauna" person I have found it mildly disturbing how some very good images sometimes are almost overlooked. I made a personal vow that whenever I am not away from the computer for extended periods, to comment on all postings in the fauna gallery, then to cherry-pick those that interest me most in other galleries. That has given me a ration of about 20 to 1. The benefit to fauna gallery is unknown, but I know that my decision to be deliberate in feedback in one gallery has improved my eye, both in the field and during post processing! NPN is a wonderful resource and the more we support it with our participation, the more we personally benefit!
Posted by John Williams on January 14, 2010 at 7:23 PM
I also think it's a great habit to comment on at least the five to ten photos posted prior to my own. For me, one of the best reasons to comment is that it has made me a better photographer. It forces me to move from whether I like a photo or not, to _why_ I like a photo or not. I'm not necessarily refering to an exhaustive review either; just thinking through what is the most attractive element, or conversely the biggest change that could be made, helps me avoid tunnel vision with my own photographs.
I totally agree with Tom too. Sometimes I don't want to repeat what has been said, but just want the photographer to know I really appreciate their work.
I think if you expect feedback on your work, you should spend some time giving it too. pretty simple formula for the most part. But, I do notice some trends. I don't think it's very helpful to the photographer to post an image, and recieve 30-40-50 or more comments that all sound like WOW! that's the greatest image I've ever seen!!! You are awesome. Obviously, that is a boost to the ego of whom ever is recieving it. I would love to hear it myself. But it certainly isn't growing that individual any further as a photographer. I can't say I have a problem with the heavy commenting on these images by a select few individuals, that are very good at what they do, by the way. My issue is with the fact that usually there is an image right in front, or behind these big comment getters that have 1,2, or 3 or so comments, or maybe none at all. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if someone else's image gets 30-40 comments in the span of a couple of hours, then there are at least that many people viewing images that found the time to stroke someone else's ego!! So, why not take the time to comment on these less eye popping images. It is usually the people that post these images that would benefit the most from the support, and feedback, right?
I am guilty of selective commenting myself. I tend to comment the heaviest when I have something posted myself. I also have developed friendships with people over the years. If my time is limited, then I do tend to focus on those first. my comment to post ratio is about 15to1. I think that's pretty good, but it could still be better. I also tend to avoid commenting on images that I don't think are that captivating. partially, because I don't want to say that about someone else's work. I do try to point out something positive first, and then offer my opinion about what might make it better. As far as the folks that are obviously more skilled than eye. I tend to just make the "great shot" type of comments. I admit not being comfortable with telling someone that captured and processed an image beyond my ability what I think could make it better.
My main point is that if we lavish the great one's, and ignore the new comers, or novices, then isn't that defeating the point a little? I don't consider myself a great photographer. I think I am an average one, that gets a little lucky once in a while. But what ever level I am at, is 100% due to the help, and feedback I have recieved from folks here. so I greatly appreciate everything anyone has ever offered me, that helped me grow, and improve.
I don't understand why people are opposed telling another photographer that their image is "great". Why not do both, provide constructive criticism to those who need it and give a pat on the back to those who deserve it. If I see an image I like I don't hesitate to say "Wow!" Personally, it helps me understand what connects with the viewer. And it tells me I am pointed in the right direction. At the same time I will comment on the next image if I think it can be improved. This is not about two opposing concepts but rather about providing the appropriate feedback on a particular image. If we stop "Wowing" images, accomplished photographers such as Lon might as well stop posting. Sorry to point you out Lon, but you were already a participant on this thread, and I do think your images are deserving of a Wow.
Kerry, I feel like you are almost punishing yourself for others behavior.
You're absolutely right, Paul, I'm probably being a complete jack*ss about this whole matter, but for some reason it really galls me. For awhile I considered implementing a "no comment" policy for images posted by individuals with a minuscule comment/post ratio (omitting newbies, who can't be expected to have a high ratio of comments to posts) as my own personal protest, but that kind of went by the boards.
I agree, some are selfish, and once I pick up on them, I ignore them. Sorry, but this is a great resource made up of a great community, and it takes input to stay that way. Some come in and abuse that and I really feel they don't deserve this resource.
Very well said.
I understand the time restrictions, and also some newcomers feel they aren't qualified to offer critiques, but giving a critique is just as useful as getting one.
FWIW, in my experience, giving critiques is [i[more[/i] useful than getting one. I think my photography benefited far more over the years by critiquing images than having my own critiqued. That's almost certainly at least part of the reason why I've done so much more commenting than posting.
Hope to see more of your posts in the future Kerry.
Thanks very much. Maybe I can see my way clear to pulling myself out of this half-year funk I've been in. The sentiments expressed in this thread have been quite encouraging.
Thanks Paul for the post and for giving us/me something to think about. I too have gotten a ton of enjoyment from this place and I'll make a real effort to put back as much as I get out of it. Always good to be reminded of things like this and it makes coming here even more fun.
Posted by Mark Stahlke on January 15, 2010 at 1:34 PM
Martin Stankiewicz wrote:
If I see an image I like I don't hesitate to say "Wow!" Personally, it helps me understand what connects with the viewer. And it tells me I am pointed in the right direction.
While I don't disagree with this sentiment, I don't think "Wow!" comments go quite far enough. They tell us what images grab viewers but not why they do. I think the "why" is much more important.
As an example, I have a large print hanging in the family room that regularly grabs people (including me). I don't understand why so many people react to it so I can't recreate that effect. Perhaps I'll post it and see if the folks here can give me some insight. But first I need to post some comments.
Cheers,
Mark
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 15, 2010 at 4:18 PM
If we stop "Wowing" images, accomplished photographers such as Lon might as well stop posting. Sorry to point you out Lon, but you were already a participant on this thread, and I do think your images are deserving of a Wow.
Martin,
Hey, no problem you can use my name - just as long as it's not in vain...
I understand what you're saying and would agree to a certain extent. I have to be honest and say a good portion of why I post images is for ego boosting. And if we're all honest, I think everyone loves to hear atta-boys. One of the reasons for coming to forums like this is because it's one thing to hear praise from Mom, or the spouse, co-workers, etc. It's another thing to get praise from other photographers. (At the same time we tend to be more nitpicky, critical and cynical too!) so the sword swipes both ways.
I'm also one who is quite picky and critical of my own work. I'm not going to post an image that isn't level, has dust spots anywhere, isn't sharpened just right and is the best it can be in terms of processing and presentation. Why? because the feedback I'm most interested in is the "why" people like or dislike it, which echoes the previous comment by Mark. I learn more from comments about mood, composition, simplicity, chaos, luminosity, etc., etc. If we can't get past level horizons, blown highlights, sensor dust and the like, it's harder to get comments that go deeper that have more meaning. In fact, I think my own commenting needs to grow more towards this part of critiquing.... hmmmm, now you've got me thinking.
You're right Martin, I certainly don't mind the "wows," and would rather get that, then nothing at all. What is unfortunate is when we make an atta-boy comment for expediency when clearly the image could use some more thoughtful critique. And that applies to any member posting or critiquing.
Interesting post and I'm glad Lon mentioned the English issue. So I'll leave a "sorry for my English" here and stop being ashamed of it from now on.
Posted by Basil Greber on January 16, 2010 at 4:33 AM
I have three things to say:
1) I agree with many previous posters that nobody is "not qualifyed" to comment on images. After all, we shoot for an audience, and not for photographers. Of course, I also value comments from photographers, and in technical terms, they're of course highly useful and often more precise than those from somebody who has no idea about photography (however, on this site, clearly nobody has "no idea" about photography, so nobody is exempted from the duty to make also technical comments! ). But as for the appeal of the shot to people, everybody is qualified, because we shoot for "everybody" to see our images. To me, "I'm not qualified" often sounds a bit like a lame excuse for not commenting (and if you feel you're not qualified to even comment, why do you feel qualified to post images...? Sorry. ).
2) About the pat-on-the-back club. I have to agree. A bit. There is no doubt that there is a group of high-profile photographers on this forum, posting fantastic images, and deserving their 40 "wow"-comments for those. I mean it. The work shown is spectacular, and I really enjoy seeing those photographs here. But then, what bugs me a bit sometimes is that if one of those regulars posts a clearly substandard image (for their standard), they still get those "yeah, another one of your fantastic captures" comments. I clearly remember one case (a seascape a long time ago) where I looked at the image, thought that it lacked a subject, was poorly composed, and that the contrails all across the sky didn't help either, looked at the twenty-something glowing comments, and though "Holy shit! Better don't voice THAT opinion here...". My point is this: "Wows" are often deserved, and should be served generously, but when they're not appropriate, we should have the guts to say so, no matter who the poster is.
3) I'll try to get my comments to post ratio up because it seems that my measly 6:1 is by far not enough.
Some great thoughts everyone! I'm running to an art festival, so there may be something else to address later.
Basil, I agree with you, but think 6-1 is great. The site only recommends 5-1, its just my personal goal to keep 10-1. I just wanted people to recognize the resource and not take advantage of it.
Posted by C. Kumrow on January 16, 2010 at 8:39 PM
2) About the pat-on-the-back club. I have to agree. A bit. There is no doubt that there is a group of high-profile photographers on this forum, posting fantastic images, and deserving their 40 "wow"-comments for those. I mean it. The work shown is spectacular, and I really enjoy seeing those photographs here. But then, what bugs me a bit sometimes is that if one of those regulars posts a clearly substandard image (for their standard), they still get those "yeah, another one of your fantastic captures" comments. I clearly remember one case (a seascape a long time ago) where I looked at the image, thought that it lacked a subject, was poorly composed, and that the contrails all across the sky didn't help either, looked at the twenty-something glowing comments, and though "Holy shit! Better don't voice THAT opinion here...". My point is this: "Wows" are often deserved, and should be served generously, but when they're not appropriate, we should have the guts to say so, no matter who the poster is.
As a former member from some years past, the 'pat-on-the-back' cliques were the main reason I had let the membership lapse. I agree there are many talented photographers here, but one time I actually inquired about what appeared to be a distracting flaw in one of the 'stars' images and my question was completely ignored. I sort of felt like there was a giant scarlet letter on my shirt
Like many others, I pretty much refuse to comment on images where the poster has really comments. I actually have not posted an image in quite a while, but when I make comments, I usually look for images that have the least number of comments. Sometimes, though, the person who posted that "low comment" image has made very few comments versus the number of images they have posted, so I go elsewhere, and the "Views" number increases by one yet again. Makes me wish, sometimes, that I could see what their comment/post ratio was before I even went to the image.......
I've enjoyed reading this thread. Some very good thoughts here, and I especially like where one says, "...a simple comment like 'great shot' will at least tell them that the shot connects with someone".
Isn't this a predominate reason why we post, to see that our work connects? And while we post we comment on other's work because that's why they post.
I support 3 photo forums, using each as a source for knowledge. But NPN is my favorite place to post because of the wealth of great photography here. It is in this gathering of good works that I am able to sharpen my talent by studying the images, and in reading the techs that are often included.
But I'd hate to think someone is watching me, counting my post-comment ratio because I'd find that distracting and as foolish as unwarranted "pats on the back".
Critique is a different matter. Having been involved in a creative writing critique class for several years, I've learned the value of constructive criticism, felt the disappointment that new members experience when they proudly read a first story aloud and we suggest they can do much better. But that's the learning process. That's how we grow.
Discussion
28 repliesI have come across some newcomers to the forum or talked to browsers of it and there is no denying the talent we have, but they say its a back pat club on certain people and other posts get totally passed by. I am probably guilty of this myself, as you want to comment on images of people who comment on your posts.
Anyways, lets try to step it up and give critiques to all images, not just the power users. And if you don't have the time, skip my image to give another image a more thorough critique. Hope I don't regret that too much =)
One last thing, and this is not a pat on the back, I put time in and try to keep a 10-1 ratio of comments/image. And with my time, I shy away from commenting on people who have a ratio under 3/1(barring newcomers). You get what you give and this site has given me so much, I don't feel like spending time on "takers".
Off the soap box...
Thanks,
Paul
I am kind of sporadic participant here, and flit from one gallery to another. Thus, I just can't critique "all images," but I'll try to follow your lead and comment on more images.
My personal rule is that whenever I post an image, I try to comment on the 5 images posted just before mine in the same gallery, before I browse the page looking for an image that catches my eye. Whenever possible, I try to say something more specific than "nice shot."
I don't agree with that 100%. Sure, more specific comments will help the photographer/poster in a specific way or area but a simple comment like "great shot" will at least tell them that the shot connects with someone.
Very relevant post. Thanks for starting this discussion. I agree that the best way for all of us to benefit from NPN and the galleries is to participate actively, post photos and leave critiques on photos. I can't say that I maintain a 10 to 1 ratio but I always leave, at the very least, 5 critiques for every photo I post. It's just the right thing to do. I also believe that it is important for posters to have a thick skin and be open to constructive criticism. We all benefit by reading thoughtful critiques, regardless of whether the image being critiqued is our own or someone else's. And, there is MUCH benefit to writing a critique.
I've actually written a blog post about using NPN and a couple other photo forums to become a better photographer. Just haven't published it yet. I'll publish it early next week for those who are interested.
I began posting on this site about 6 1/2 years ago and have maintained a comment/post ratio on the IC forums of 35:1 or better. My own rule, particularly on ESS where posts scroll into oblivion in short order, is that if I wasn't prepared to post at least 20 comments I wouldn't post an image of my own.
At some point last year I became particularly discouraged with the number of ESS images posted by people who clearly weren't taking the time to comment at all. I don't mean these folks weren't commenting on my posts; they weren't commenting on anyone's posts--except (just to rub it in) their own. This left a bad taste in my mouth, and crushed a great deal of my own motivation to comment on the images of others, and with my own rule about commenting and posting, I decided if I wasn't going to comment I couldn't very well post my own images without being a hypocrite. And so I've basically sat on the sidelines and done nothing for the past five months or so.
I recognize that this is my problem, not the site's or anyone else's, and I'll have to see if I can figure out a way to extract myself from this box.
I understand the time restrictions, and also some newcomers feel they aren't qualified to offer critiques, but giving a critique is just as useful as getting one.
Hope to see more of your posts in the future Kerry.
It disheartens me too when I see people abusing the site with low post-comment ratios.
Thanks for your comments - this is certainly a topic that pops up just about annually. And it's a valid one and I agree with most of what you're saying. And like I mentioned in a recent thread, the ones that read this usually aren't the problem - and the ones who need to read this, probably won't.
Just to be fair though.... IMHO, many (not all of course) of the images that don't get large numbers of comments are from those who don't have high comment/post ratios. So you say you want to seek out those posts with few comments and help those not getting responses... but then discover they don't have the ratio that meets your requirements and don't comment. Thus, the problem propagates. So it works both ways.
Is there a "back pat club?" Many would say, yes, of course. Others might say, show me the club charter? who's the president and why can't I join?....
Perhaps some may think I'm part of that club; maybe even the president. I certainly acknowledge that I get an above average number of comments. I acknowledge that and attribute it to 3 things:
1.) Moderator. There's certainly some additional comments/respect simply because of that status. 2.) I comment more than anyone except for Tony Kuyper - and I'll never catch him. But I participate - not just with atta-boys, but provide hopefully constructive and valuable feedback. I get a lot of reciprocal responses and lastly, 3.) I think the images I post are pretty decent.
Some of you probably have figured out my posting patterns. Like others, I will comment on a bunch of images first - usually the entire first page and anywhere from 20-50 comments. Then I post my image and let it sit. I do my best to comment on everyone's images, including my "buds" (and yes we all do have friends that exist beyond NPN...) and I will seek out those who have not received many comments. And yes, I will occasionally skip a poster who chooses not to participate - but I will usually make a friendly effort to encourage them.
Another factor is that so many folks somehow don't feel "qualified" to comment. I recently received a comment basically saying they didn't feel qualified to comment on my image... but guess what, they went ahead with a comment anyway. FOLKS, if you can take anything away from my comment here, it's that EVERYONE IS QUALIFIED to offer an opinion. If you want to tell me or Guy Tal that you don't like the image or would like to suggest a crop, then go for it.
In the end, one must make out of it what you put in to it. Like you say Paul, if you give and provide help with comments and feedback, you will in return receive. Pay it forward... what goes around comes around... many sayings that say the same thing. Is every post going to get 30, 40 or 50 comments? No, it's not going to happen. And let's all be honest too, the images that get 40+ comments are without question, the images with the most impact and appeal to the audience that views them. There are certainly phenomenal works that don't receive high numbers of comments, but probably appeal to a narrower group of folks. Some people don't post any more simply because of that reason.
Does this mean if you post 10 comments that you should receive 10 comments when you post an image? Of course not. But rather than look at in a way where you want to force behavior by counting comments or having some sort of trigger.... and rather than look from the sidelines.... I would say, join the party! Engage yourself. Help someone who knows less than you. Offer advice and commentary. Ask questions, answer questions.
Oh, and lastly (I promise) I want to say something about "English." NPN stretches around the globe and there seems to be an increasingly number of folks where English is NOT their native language or perhaps not even a second language. In my opinion humble opinion (IMHO) only BAD English can be spoken by folks who's English is their primary language. In other words, you do not have to apologize for your "bad" English. The good news is that photography is a universal language!
Ok, done for now. Thanks for listening.
Lon
Excellent comment and good points. This makes me want to remind folks as well how important it is to provide enough information with your posts. A pet peeve I have is when someone just posts the image with no info what so ever. If you want help and critique around processing or composition, let the viewer know that. And for folks like John, tell us you just would like to share the image and find out if folks like it - not what the new sharpening techniques are. Makes sense.
But it's all based on what you, as the original poster, reveal to the community. And the more you engage and share, the better and more focused feedback and comments you'll get.
Lon
I totally agree with Tom too. Sometimes I don't want to repeat what has been said, but just want the photographer to know I really appreciate their work.
I am guilty of selective commenting myself. I tend to comment the heaviest when I have something posted myself. I also have developed friendships with people over the years. If my time is limited, then I do tend to focus on those first. my comment to post ratio is about 15to1. I think that's pretty good, but it could still be better. I also tend to avoid commenting on images that I don't think are that captivating. partially, because I don't want to say that about someone else's work. I do try to point out something positive first, and then offer my opinion about what might make it better. As far as the folks that are obviously more skilled than eye. I tend to just make the "great shot" type of comments. I admit not being comfortable with telling someone that captured and processed an image beyond my ability what I think could make it better.
My main point is that if we lavish the great one's, and ignore the new comers, or novices, then isn't that defeating the point a little? I don't consider myself a great photographer. I think I am an average one, that gets a little lucky once in a while. But what ever level I am at, is 100% due to the help, and feedback I have recieved from folks here. so I greatly appreciate everything anyone has ever offered me, that helped me grow, and improve.
Chris
You're absolutely right, Paul, I'm probably being a complete jack*ss about this whole matter, but for some reason it really galls me. For awhile I considered implementing a "no comment" policy for images posted by individuals with a minuscule comment/post ratio (omitting newbies, who can't be expected to have a high ratio of comments to posts) as my own personal protest, but that kind of went by the boards.
Very well said.
FWIW, in my experience, giving critiques is [i[more[/i] useful than getting one. I think my photography benefited far more over the years by critiquing images than having my own critiqued. That's almost certainly at least part of the reason why I've done so much more commenting than posting.
Thanks very much. Maybe I can see my way clear to pulling myself out of this half-year funk I've been in. The sentiments expressed in this thread have been quite encouraging.
As an example, I have a large print hanging in the family room that regularly grabs people (including me). I don't understand why so many people react to it so I can't recreate that effect. Perhaps I'll post it and see if the folks here can give me some insight. But first I need to post some comments.
Cheers,
Mark
Martin,
Hey, no problem you can use my name - just as long as it's not in vain...
I understand what you're saying and would agree to a certain extent. I have to be honest and say a good portion of why I post images is for ego boosting. And if we're all honest, I think everyone loves to hear atta-boys. One of the reasons for coming to forums like this is because it's one thing to hear praise from Mom, or the spouse, co-workers, etc. It's another thing to get praise from other photographers. (At the same time we tend to be more nitpicky, critical and cynical too!) so the sword swipes both ways.
I'm also one who is quite picky and critical of my own work. I'm not going to post an image that isn't level, has dust spots anywhere, isn't sharpened just right and is the best it can be in terms of processing and presentation. Why? because the feedback I'm most interested in is the "why" people like or dislike it, which echoes the previous comment by Mark. I learn more from comments about mood, composition, simplicity, chaos, luminosity, etc., etc. If we can't get past level horizons, blown highlights, sensor dust and the like, it's harder to get comments that go deeper that have more meaning. In fact, I think my own commenting needs to grow more towards this part of critiquing.... hmmmm, now you've got me thinking.
You're right Martin, I certainly don't mind the "wows," and would rather get that, then nothing at all. What is unfortunate is when we make an atta-boy comment for expediency when clearly the image could use some more thoughtful critique. And that applies to any member posting or critiquing.
Good stuff folks
1) I agree with many previous posters that nobody is "not qualifyed" to comment on images. After all, we shoot for an audience, and not for photographers. Of course, I also value comments from photographers, and in technical terms, they're of course highly useful and often more precise than those from somebody who has no idea about photography (however, on this site, clearly nobody has "no idea" about photography, so nobody is exempted from the duty to make also technical comments!
2) About the pat-on-the-back club. I have to agree. A bit. There is no doubt that there is a group of high-profile photographers on this forum, posting fantastic images, and deserving their 40 "wow"-comments for those. I mean it. The work shown is spectacular, and I really enjoy seeing those photographs here. But then, what bugs me a bit sometimes is that if one of those regulars posts a clearly substandard image (for their standard), they still get those "yeah, another one of your fantastic captures" comments. I clearly remember one case (a seascape a long time ago) where I looked at the image, thought that it lacked a subject, was poorly composed, and that the contrails all across the sky didn't help either, looked at the twenty-something glowing comments, and though "Holy shit! Better don't voice THAT opinion here...". My point is this: "Wows" are often deserved, and should be served generously, but when they're not appropriate, we should have the guts to say so, no matter who the poster is.
3) I'll try to get my comments to post ratio up because it seems that my measly 6:1 is by far not enough.
Basil, I agree with you, but think 6-1 is great. The site only recommends 5-1, its just my personal goal to keep 10-1. I just wanted people to recognize the resource and not take advantage of it.
As a former member from some years past, the 'pat-on-the-back' cliques were the main reason I had let the membership lapse. I agree there are many talented photographers here, but one time I actually inquired about what appeared to be a distracting flaw in one of the 'stars' images and my question was completely ignored. I sort of felt like there was a giant scarlet letter on my shirt
Isn't this a predominate reason why we post, to see that our work connects? And while we post we comment on other's work because that's why they post.
I support 3 photo forums, using each as a source for knowledge. But NPN is my favorite place to post because of the wealth of great photography here. It is in this gathering of good works that I am able to sharpen my talent by studying the images, and in reading the techs that are often included.
But I'd hate to think someone is watching me, counting my post-comment ratio because I'd find that distracting and as foolish as unwarranted "pats on the back".
Critique is a different matter. Having been involved in a creative writing critique class for several years, I've learned the value of constructive criticism, felt the disappointment that new members experience when they proudly read a first story aloud and we suggest they can do much better. But that's the learning process. That's how we grow.
Thoughtless critique hurts. Careful critique nurtures.