I am looking to get a filter system for my Canon 50D. It would typically be for landscape photography (e.g. sunset/sunrise, waterfall/streams, beach, etc.) using a 17-40 and 70-200 lens. I have looked at the Cokin P holders, but I have seen reviews that said there were problems at wider angles (e.g. holder in field of view). Can anyone give any recommendations on a filter holding system that is reasonably priced and would be suited for my subjects/equipment?
As for the actual filters, I am trying to figure out which are essential for my type of photographs...again without breaking the bank (wish I could afford a bunch of Singh-Ray filters ). My current wish list includes a circular polarizer, 2-stop ND, 4-stop ND, and 3-stop hard GND. If anyone can share any thoughts on whether or not this is a good list, I would appreciate it.
Thanks for everyones help (whether you knew you were giving it or not ) so far to this new NPNer.
Posted by Steve Cole on January 15, 2010 at 10:28 PM
Hi Joseph, and welcome aboard.
You two main choices for cost/quality in the GND filters will be HiTech or Lee filters. If you do some searches, you'll find that they both gain high marks and do not provide a color cast like the Cokin filters. The other advantage they offer is a larger size. HiTechs offer a 4x5 filter and the Lee offer 4x6.
I, personally, handhold mine in front of the lens since I'm likely to change lenses frequently. The larger sized filters make this MUCH easier and keep your hands & fingers out of your photo. I was very tempted to get the HiTech filters but I ultimately bought the 0.3, 0.6, 0.9 soft GND set from Lee. I've been real happy with them. You can check out both brands and order from here:
http://www.2filter.com/
I ordered my Lee filters from them but they were on back order. They did send me an email that explained what was going on (Lee had an error on a production run) and I thought that was nice.
As for Circ PLs, I have three different ones for my lenses and range from cheap to spendy. The spendy one is a B&W slim-mount for my 77mm ultra-wide lens and I've been happy with its quality (although the "lens cap" didn't really stay securely on).
Best of luck!
Steve
Posted by David Taylor on January 15, 2010 at 10:59 PM
Hello Joseph and welcome to the forums. Great question here.
I would really push for you to consider spending the money on good filters. Singh-Ray, B+W, Heliopan, etc. You've spent a good chunk of money on your camera and lenses, by putting inferior filters on them, it's only "dumbing" down that quality equipment.
I'd recommend a B+W CPL, and a Singh-Ray Vari-ND variable ND filter (that covers a wider range than individual ND filters, all in one filter). I don't use grad filters anymore, I do a digital grad by taking an exposure for the sky and one for the foreground (or a 3rd exposure if absolutely necessary) and combine them in PS using masks and the Gradient tool. More flexible and higher quality for my work. To each their own though. By the largest filter size that you will need and then use step down/up rings to use the filters on lenses of different sizes.
Hope this helps.
Joseph,
If you can afford it, the Lee, Singh-Ray, B&W, and higher end Hoya are all good. Spend as much as you can afford on a CPL, though beware of sizes larger than 72mm.
An old-timer sold me a box of 50+ Cokin "P" filters for $25; most of them are silly, but there are a few ones worth using. I like the ND +2, +3 and graduated ND filters. If you can find these cheap or free (ask around) it's a start. Avoid the filter holders--big hassle, especially if you change lenses. I just hold a filter in front of the lens.
Steve - I like the idea of the hand-held method with the ND filters. Keeps things simpler.
David - I also like the idea of using PS. I've done this in the past with layer masks, but haven't always had the most natural results when I try to blend. I haven't tried the gradient tool yet. I'll do some research to figure out how to do this...I'd imagine it's pretty straight-forward. Any tips?
Michael - what do you mean by "beware of sizes larger than 72mm"?
I'll focus on getting a good polarizer first. Any other perspectives?
Thanks!
Posted by David Taylor on January 16, 2010 at 4:37 PM
Sure thing Joseph-
I'm planning on writing a thorough description of my method my website (link below). A couple of important things though: of course, use a tripod - otherwise your two (or more) exposures won't line up properly or as easily in PS. In the basic scenario, you'd take one exposure for the foreground and one for the sky. Use manual exposure mode and turn off AF so the lens doesn't attempt to refocus between images, and focus on your foreground subject. Take your first exposure (I usually do the foreground image, unless the light is changing quickly in the sky) then change your shutter speed for the exposure in the sky. If you change your aperture (which you don't want to do), your DOF will change and the images won't blend as well.
In PS, open each image at it's full native resolution (the image dimensions should be equal). In the layers palette on one of the images (it doesn't really matter which) hold the SHIFT key down while dragging the "Background Layer" from one image onto the other open image. The SHIFT key will make sure the layer you are dragging is matched up/aligned with the current image layer.
I usually have the sky layer as the top layer, this will make the foreground appear dark, that's ok - when you use the layer mask it will reveal the properly exposed foreground.
Which ever layer is on top, create a layer mask there. I like to use the Gradient Tool to reveal the layer below, it acts just like a Grad ND filter in the end, except I can adjust the edge of the gradient almost infinitely, compared to either 'soft' or 'hard' like a physical filter. And unlike a physical filter, I don't have to take a lot of time in the field getting the grad lined up correctly - it's just two quick exposures, you can even get them by using the exposure bracketing feature in your camera. If you spend your time working on the gradient mask, it will look just as good (if not much better than) as Grad ND filter. You can further adjust the gradient/mask by working on the transition portion of the mask - for trees, mountains, whatever. The key is to make the transition subtle, if anything err on the side of making the gradient soft, rather than abrupt/hard. I'll post something here when I have the tutorial on my website ready to go.
Please let me know if you have any questions, I'm happy to help.
Wow Dave, thanks again for all the great feedback! I'll watch out for that tutorial.
I just have to say that the time that you and other NPN members take to respond to novice questions like mine are one of the big reasons why I joined the NPN community and I sincerely appreciate it. Richard and Jim (are you listening? ) should consider another weekly/monthly award for those like yourself that help grow membership and provide value.
I post most of my comments in the gallery because I think even a novice can provide perspective on what does/doesn't work with a photo, but I hope I can return the favor in these forums when I become more experienced.
Posted by David Taylor on January 17, 2010 at 1:13 AM
Hey Joseph, my pleasure - helping people out is reward enough for me. You'll find a lot of people on NPN that feel the same way about helping others. Jim has created a great community here & we're glad to have you on board.
Joseph,
At very wide angles, blue skies can become noticeably uneven with circular polarizing filters. One part of the sky can appear darker than another. Generally I've experienced this with 77mm-sized CPL filters on very wide angle lenses; the 72mm is more forgiving, but you still have to be conscious.
Thanks, Michael. Ditto on my previous comment for you and Steve!
Posted by David Taylor on January 17, 2010 at 11:10 AM
Michael is exactly right. Sometimes you can work around this issue by backing up more (if possible) and zooming in slightly. Another option would be turn your CPL a little bit (less polarized) to reduce the effect on the sky. You can use this method as a variation of my "Digital Grad" filter above. One exposure for the fully polarized foreground (for saturation and cutting the glare) and one slightly less polarized exposure for the sky. Darwin Wiggett recently wrote a great article on just this topic for the Singh-Ray filters blog site. Excellent resource... http://singhray.blogspot.com/2010/01/seven-rules-for-effectively-using.html
Hope this helps.
Posted by David Taylor on January 17, 2010 at 3:50 PM
I forgot to mention, I shy away from hand holding a filter (grad nd) in front of my lens. I'm not as steady as I used to be, and with a wide angle lens, there isn't much room for error - too much likelihood of me getting my darn fingers in the shot
Also, over a long exposure - it becomes more difficult to both hold the grad steady in the correct place and not bump the lens during the shot (with the filter), introducing vibration. I also worry about scratching the filter with the end of the lens. But many people out there use this method, so it is very possible that my hands aren't as steady as they used to be
Posted by Buck Ward on January 17, 2010 at 7:16 PM
Joseph-
Your list of filters is fairly similar to the filters I have. I find ND and GND filters to be invaluable. I use a P holder and Hi-Tech filters, except for the polarizer. The P holder fits on the lens with an adapter ring. I believe 77mm is the largest size adaper ring on which the P holder will fit. I have a polarizer that fits in the P holder but I don't like it. It's cumbersome to turn, so I prefer the round screw-on style of polarizer. FYI, my most frequently used P-holder filter is the three-stop hard-edge GND.
On a 1.6-crop-factor sensor, with the P holder mounted on the threads of a polarizer, the edge of the holder will intrude into the edge of the frame using a 17-40mm lens at 17mm. I solved the problem by cutting off one of the slots of the P holder, so that it will only hold two filters, instead of three. (Easy surgery - I used a band saw, but you could do it with a hack saw or a utility knife.) I seldom have the need to stack three filters anyhow, and if I do, I simply use another P holder. My cut-off P holder does not vignette on my 1.3-crop-factor body. I use it on my 17-40mm lens at 17mm with no problem. When mounted on your 17-40mm lens on your 50D, an unaltered three-slot P holder mounted directly on the lens should not cause you any problem
Michael-
A polarizer has its greatest effect when pointed 90 degrees from the direction of the light. A wide angle lens has a wide field of view. If the center of a wide lens is pointed 90 degrees, the angle at the corners of the lens will be considerably less than 90 degrees, and the effect of the polarizer will be noticeably reduced at the edges of the frame. Because of this effect, a polarizer will make a blue sky appear darker in the center of a wide angle lens than at the edges. I expect that the effect would be the same for two lenses having the same field of view, even though one had a 77mm diameter and the other had a 72mm diameter.
Canon makes a number of their L lenses with 77mm filter threads, making it a convenience not to have to use filters of differing diameters If you have lenses with 77mm threads, obviously you need to use 77mm filters. Instead of buying another filter for smaller diameter lenses, you can get step-down rings for a fraction of the cost and use a 77mm filter on all your lenses.
Posted by David Bostedo on January 18, 2010 at 8:50 AM
This link is a good tutorial on exposure blending(as opposed to using a GND) by nature photographer David Clapp. It has a down-loadable example too if you want to follow along. I find that once you get used to the basic process, it can be done very quickly - a minute or two - and tweaked in whatever way necessary.
There are a few cases where actual filters are necessary, but in most cases blending in software is an advantage, since the grad line isn't fixed. As long as you can stand to take two shots, I think it's the way to go.
A lot of good advice has already been given, and as a relative "novice" myself I am always hesitant to contribute to a post that calls for an experienced voice. But I will say that (a) the advice to buy a high-quality polarizer (Singh Ray, etc.) is good, as you'll be using it a lot; and (b) ND grads are not entirely obsolete because shots taken on a windy day with lots of trees, grasses, etc., cannot be effectively combined with exposure blending. You still have the option of a digital ND grad in that situation, but you'll have to expose carefully to retain highlights in the sky and then bring up the foreground . . . sometimes quite dramatically. And in bringing it up in post-processing, you can introduce noise and there will likely be some shadow areas that will still be blocked up. So I carry a couple of Hi-Tech GNDs (the larger 4x5 size) and just handhold them when they are the best option. I've got a lot of shots of my fingertips, but I've also got some that would have been tough to get without a GND.
Discussion
14 repliesAs for the actual filters, I am trying to figure out which are essential for my type of photographs...again without breaking the bank (wish I could afford a bunch of Singh-Ray filters
Thanks for everyones help (whether you knew you were giving it or not
You two main choices for cost/quality in the GND filters will be HiTech or Lee filters. If you do some searches, you'll find that they both gain high marks and do not provide a color cast like the Cokin filters. The other advantage they offer is a larger size. HiTechs offer a 4x5 filter and the Lee offer 4x6.
I, personally, handhold mine in front of the lens since I'm likely to change lenses frequently. The larger sized filters make this MUCH easier and keep your hands & fingers out of your photo. I was very tempted to get the HiTech filters but I ultimately bought the 0.3, 0.6, 0.9 soft GND set from Lee. I've been real happy with them. You can check out both brands and order from here:
http://www.2filter.com/
I ordered my Lee filters from them but they were on back order. They did send me an email that explained what was going on (Lee had an error on a production run) and I thought that was nice.
As for Circ PLs, I have three different ones for my lenses and range from cheap to spendy. The spendy one is a B&W slim-mount for my 77mm ultra-wide lens and I've been happy with its quality (although the "lens cap" didn't really stay securely on).
Best of luck!
Steve
I would really push for you to consider spending the money on good filters. Singh-Ray, B+W, Heliopan, etc. You've spent a good chunk of money on your camera and lenses, by putting inferior filters on them, it's only "dumbing" down that quality equipment.
I'd recommend a B+W CPL, and a Singh-Ray Vari-ND variable ND filter (that covers a wider range than individual ND filters, all in one filter). I don't use grad filters anymore, I do a digital grad by taking an exposure for the sky and one for the foreground (or a 3rd exposure if absolutely necessary) and combine them in PS using masks and the Gradient tool. More flexible and higher quality for my work. To each their own though. By the largest filter size that you will need and then use step down/up rings to use the filters on lenses of different sizes.
Hope this helps.
If you can afford it, the Lee, Singh-Ray, B&W, and higher end Hoya are all good. Spend as much as you can afford on a CPL, though beware of sizes larger than 72mm.
An old-timer sold me a box of 50+ Cokin "P" filters for $25; most of them are silly, but there are a few ones worth using. I like the ND +2, +3 and graduated ND filters. If you can find these cheap or free (ask around) it's a start. Avoid the filter holders--big hassle, especially if you change lenses. I just hold a filter in front of the lens.
ME
Steve - I like the idea of the hand-held method with the ND filters. Keeps things simpler.
David - I also like the idea of using PS. I've done this in the past with layer masks, but haven't always had the most natural results when I try to blend. I haven't tried the gradient tool yet. I'll do some research to figure out how to do this...I'd imagine it's pretty straight-forward. Any tips?
Michael - what do you mean by "beware of sizes larger than 72mm"?
I'll focus on getting a good polarizer first. Any other perspectives?
Thanks!
I'm planning on writing a thorough description of my method my website (link below). A couple of important things though: of course, use a tripod - otherwise your two (or more) exposures won't line up properly or as easily in PS. In the basic scenario, you'd take one exposure for the foreground and one for the sky. Use manual exposure mode and turn off AF so the lens doesn't attempt to refocus between images, and focus on your foreground subject. Take your first exposure (I usually do the foreground image, unless the light is changing quickly in the sky) then change your shutter speed for the exposure in the sky. If you change your aperture (which you don't want to do), your DOF will change and the images won't blend as well.
In PS, open each image at it's full native resolution (the image dimensions should be equal). In the layers palette on one of the images (it doesn't really matter which) hold the SHIFT key down while dragging the "Background Layer" from one image onto the other open image. The SHIFT key will make sure the layer you are dragging is matched up/aligned with the current image layer.
I usually have the sky layer as the top layer, this will make the foreground appear dark, that's ok - when you use the layer mask it will reveal the properly exposed foreground.
Which ever layer is on top, create a layer mask there. I like to use the Gradient Tool to reveal the layer below, it acts just like a Grad ND filter in the end, except I can adjust the edge of the gradient almost infinitely, compared to either 'soft' or 'hard' like a physical filter. And unlike a physical filter, I don't have to take a lot of time in the field getting the grad lined up correctly - it's just two quick exposures, you can even get them by using the exposure bracketing feature in your camera. If you spend your time working on the gradient mask, it will look just as good (if not much better than) as Grad ND filter. You can further adjust the gradient/mask by working on the transition portion of the mask - for trees, mountains, whatever. The key is to make the transition subtle, if anything err on the side of making the gradient soft, rather than abrupt/hard. I'll post something here when I have the tutorial on my website ready to go.
Please let me know if you have any questions, I'm happy to help.
I just have to say that the time that you and other NPN members take to respond to novice questions like mine are one of the big reasons why I joined the NPN community and I sincerely appreciate it. Richard and Jim (are you listening?
I post most of my comments in the gallery because I think even a novice can provide perspective on what does/doesn't work with a photo, but I hope I can return the favor in these forums when I become more experienced.
At very wide angles, blue skies can become noticeably uneven with circular polarizing filters. One part of the sky can appear darker than another. Generally I've experienced this with 77mm-sized CPL filters on very wide angle lenses; the 72mm is more forgiving, but you still have to be conscious.
ME
http://singhray.blogspot.com/2010/01/seven-rules-for-effectively-using.html
Hope this helps.
Also, over a long exposure - it becomes more difficult to both hold the grad steady in the correct place and not bump the lens during the shot (with the filter), introducing vibration. I also worry about scratching the filter with the end of the lens. But many people out there use this method, so it is very possible that my hands aren't as steady as they used to be
Your list of filters is fairly similar to the filters I have. I find ND and GND filters to be invaluable. I use a P holder and Hi-Tech filters, except for the polarizer. The P holder fits on the lens with an adapter ring. I believe 77mm is the largest size adaper ring on which the P holder will fit. I have a polarizer that fits in the P holder but I don't like it. It's cumbersome to turn, so I prefer the round screw-on style of polarizer. FYI, my most frequently used P-holder filter is the three-stop hard-edge GND.
On a 1.6-crop-factor sensor, with the P holder mounted on the threads of a polarizer, the edge of the holder will intrude into the edge of the frame using a 17-40mm lens at 17mm. I solved the problem by cutting off one of the slots of the P holder, so that it will only hold two filters, instead of three. (Easy surgery - I used a band saw, but you could do it with a hack saw or a utility knife.) I seldom have the need to stack three filters anyhow, and if I do, I simply use another P holder. My cut-off P holder does not vignette on my 1.3-crop-factor body. I use it on my 17-40mm lens at 17mm with no problem. When mounted on your 17-40mm lens on your 50D, an unaltered three-slot P holder mounted directly on the lens should not cause you any problem
Michael-
A polarizer has its greatest effect when pointed 90 degrees from the direction of the light. A wide angle lens has a wide field of view. If the center of a wide lens is pointed 90 degrees, the angle at the corners of the lens will be considerably less than 90 degrees, and the effect of the polarizer will be noticeably reduced at the edges of the frame. Because of this effect, a polarizer will make a blue sky appear darker in the center of a wide angle lens than at the edges. I expect that the effect would be the same for two lenses having the same field of view, even though one had a 77mm diameter and the other had a 72mm diameter.
Canon makes a number of their L lenses with 77mm filter threads, making it a convenience not to have to use filters of differing diameters If you have lenses with 77mm threads, obviously you need to use 77mm filters. Instead of buying another filter for smaller diameter lenses, you can get step-down rings for a fraction of the cost and use a 77mm filter on all your lenses.
There are a few cases where actual filters are necessary, but in most cases blending in software is an advantage, since the grad line isn't fixed. As long as you can stand to take two shots, I think it's the way to go.