Posted by Larry Fischer on February 12, 2010 at 8:47 AM
In looking at enlarged images (100 or 200 x) I notice there is a clear area next to some edges. Photo attached.
This is most noticable with light background at the edge of a black line going through that background, like a thin tree limb and sky.
This is the same area that color aberation occurs (I think).
Is this what is meant by "edge noise"??
What is the cause and what are the ramifications if there is no color associated with the clear space? It becomes more prominent with too high of a sharpening maneuver.
I've noticed this on professional grade lenses as well as lesser lenses. I'm using Nikon stuff. The pic is from a new 14-24 which is supposed to be a really sharp lens especially for a zoom.
the fisch
Posted by David Bostedo on February 12, 2010 at 9:15 AM
Larry - Is this from a JPG? Or RAW? Either way, how was it produced? Was any additional sharpening applied at all? What you posted is pretty small, so it's hard to see exactly what you're referring to, but it sounds like halo-ing. That is, a very high contrast edge gets sharpened, and the sharpening algorithm actually over-cooks the contrast producing a lighter area along the edge. As you mentioned, it gets worse with sharpening, because most sharpening algorithms boost edge contrast. I'm wondering if in-camera sharpening of any type, even very mild, could be causing it since it's high contrast. Can you look at an un-processed RAW file?
I guess it could also be a lens effect if it's not a sharpening issue, although it wouldn't be chromatic aberration, since it's not a color shift. I'm not sure about possible lens causes.
Posted by Larry Fischer on February 12, 2010 at 10:09 AM
Thanks, David
This is a small crop from a RAW shot of a phone/electric wire against a cloudy sky. 300x
I do have my sharpening tweaked up in the camera 2 points above center on my D700, level 7?
Is that the probable cause?
Better to do sharpening in-camera or in processing???
It looks like you may have introduced some artifacts by using in-camera sharpening.
It is preferrable to do your sharpening in processing. That way you can tailor sharpening for your output. For example, an image destined for the web (as a jpeg) will require different sharpening as opposed to that required for a 11x14 print.
Although I work with 4x5 film, I'll give an example of my general workflow...
I scan my film and save the unedited, unsharpened scan in a folder. (This is my "RAW" file.)
I open the scan in PS and duplicate it.
I save the duplicate as a tiff or psd file. This becomes my 'Master' file.
I make any needed adjustments to the master file.
From the completed master file I create jpegs, or or files for print, and sharpen accordingly.
So, my scan is similar to your converted RAW file. This file becomes your 'Master' file to which you make adjustments.
I agree. Sharpening artifacts. We add a slight touch of in-camera sharpening on assignment for clients with limited Photoshop skills and no artist on staff, but otherwise none at all. Lots more control on results and versatility that way.
Posted by Larry Fischer on February 12, 2010 at 2:03 PM
Thanks,
OK, I have in-camera sharpening artifacts pictured above as light next to dark lines.
Now, camea settings???
I don't have PS; I use Capture NX2. It is non-destructive so the original should always be available.
Should I set "in-camera sharpening" at midpoint on Nikon settings (default = 5 I believe) or should it be ratcheted back?? I've been shooting at 6 on a scale of 0-9 (10 settings).
There is also a setting below 0 which is A which I presume is auto (will chekc the manual).
the fisch
Posted by Mark Stahlke on February 12, 2010 at 2:52 PM
Should I set "in-camera sharpening" at midpoint on Nikon settings (default = 5 I believe) or should it be ratcheted back?? I've been shooting at 6 on a scale of 0-9 (10 settings).
Make some test images and see what setting gives you the best results.
Cheers,
Mark
Posted by David Bostedo on February 12, 2010 at 3:16 PM
Larry - If you're shooting RAW, the in-camera sharpening shouldn't really matter. It simply gives NX2 a place to start from, and you should be able to examine your images and tweak them accordingly. Of course, to avoid having to tweak as much as possible, you could try to get the in-camera setting where you like it without overcooking it. And a lot of people like to just turn off all sharpening in camera and do it all in post.
That's why I asked if you have an un-processed RAW for the shot above....if you can see it in the RAW with default processing and no sharpening applied (NOTE : in NX2 this might not be your defaults, since it probably reads the camera settings) you probably won't see any halo either.
Posted by Larry Fischer on February 12, 2010 at 4:03 PM
David and Mark,
I'll review my camera manual. There are 10 settings, 0-9 with one "A" before '0'. I need to find out what that A is...
And I'll take some test shots, also.
I basically shoot only RAW but that also includes whatever the camera does based on my settings. I do shoot "standard".
It would seem to be that one could not reduce the "halo" as it has been termed because NX2 starts as zero. The in camera setting arrives at various levels of presharpening which is not new but I did not know sharpening acted by creating clear space (halo) around image edges.
So, for more control, I will reduce or eliminate sharpening in camera
Thanks for the replies. I've learned something.
the fisch
Just for reference, we leave our D2X's and D300's set at 0, unless otherwise specified by clients. That gives us a lot more latitude in the sharpening methods we choose on images, as well as for the clients who do their own sharpening. In fact, the only serious complaints we've ever had from ADs have come when we've done any sharpening at all. On processed images we do our sharpening on a separate layer, which not only allows us to kill the sharpening for clients that want to do their own, but also to blend the sharpening and create masks for selective sharpening. I'm not sure how much of that you can do in NX2, but it would be a compelling reason to move on to some version of Photoshop, if not.
Posted by David Bostedo on February 13, 2010 at 1:45 AM
It would seem to be that one could not reduce the "halo" as it has been termed because NX2 starts as zero.
Larry - It very possible that NX2 is reading the settings you have for JPGs, even when you open RAW and applying them for you. So you might want to see if you can tell it to ignore camera settings. You shouldn't be getting halos without doing any processing. And as Hank said, you could create masks so that sharpening doesn't get applied as much to these very high contrast smooth lines. They are the most likely to show haloing. And setting your camera to 0 would have the same effect, if NX2 is reading your in-camera settings.
I did not know sharpening acted by creating clear space (halo) around image edges.
A couple of things - it's not really "clear"; It's going white from an overabundance of sharpening. Sharpening essentially increase contrast right along that edge. If done too much, especially on an already sharp edge, it can push the pixel values that are close to the edge lighter or darker than the nearby pixels that are further from the edge. This creates lighter (or darker, though less noticable usually) regions right along the edge. If you don't have any lens effects going on, this won't be the case in a minimally processed RAW file. You can pretty easily see this effect on things like mountains against a bright sky, or other high contrast lines, if you crank up the sharpening a lot.
For anyone familiar with ACR/PS, one of the reasons they added smart sharpen is to add "pinning" that USM doesn't have. It "pins" the edge pixel values to fall between the surrounding ones, and largely eliminates the chance of small halos like these.
Posted by Larry Fischer on February 13, 2010 at 9:40 AM
So much to know and so little time.
I'm going to have to invest in PhotoShop.
I will (actually have) set my camer at zero for sharpening.
David mentioned the camera's jpeg values. I had previously selected that value for "Max Quality" but that perhaps imparts "in-camera" settings that spill over into RAW??? I would not think so.
No wonder some photos on NPN "pop" and mine don't.... More than just pulling the trigger, eh !!!!
Thanks again form the time in replying
the fisch
Posted by Larry Puckett on February 13, 2010 at 10:25 AM
Capture NX2 is the Nikon equivalent of Canon's DPP. With DPP you can optionally have it apply the in-camera settings automatically when it processes the RAW file adn I bet that NX2 deos the same thing. Read your NX2 manual and see if this is the case and also how to turn it on and off when processing RAW. Some features in DPP can be selectively applied and you may be able to do that with NX2 as well. I have a friend that owns a tech company and her favorite saying is "real men don't read manuals" and it seems to be true of photogs as well--Larry
Posted by David Bostedo on February 13, 2010 at 12:45 PM
Hey Larry - I'd follow Larry P.'s advice and see if you can turn off the application of camera settings (if that's what's happening). I wouldn't invest in PS just for this feature if you're otherwise happy with NX2.
Along those lines, the JPG quality value won't have any effect on the RAW value since it affects either resolution or JPG compression, neither of which can be applied to the RAW file. But if NX2 is applying the JPG settings, it would be for all the other things, like sharpening, contrast, color settings, etc.
Posted by Lon Sharp on February 13, 2010 at 3:16 PM
When you first open NX2 you are viewing it with all camera settings applied. However any NEF file brings up "camera settings" as the first menu item. Within that option are non-picture control and picture. I use the "non." You can un-apply any camera settings (sharpening, color mode, contrast, saturation, WB, etc.) with a click. Of course you can shoot with the camera set for no sharpening, but I like to have it in camera for in-field review. My first step in post is to disable sharpening and reapply as appropriate at the end of all other adjustments.
Posted by Larry Fischer on February 15, 2010 at 4:40 PM
Was not a real good weekend in Kansas for photogrpahy; cold, snow, dreary.
But even more revealing was Lon Sharp's post. I had forgotten that NX2 allowed much more maneuvering in the program. So I experimented with some shots but I really need different and better light that snowstorm stuff.
Lon, I even ordered the manual for NX2 but the instructions are vague sometimes, especially in the fill-in stuff which has nothing to do with my subject.
I need to attend a workshop.
Thanks again for all the suggestions and comments--really helpful.
the fisch
Discussion
15 repliesThis is most noticable with light background at the edge of a black line going through that background, like a thin tree limb and sky.
This is the same area that color aberation occurs (I think).
Is this what is meant by "edge noise"??
What is the cause and what are the ramifications if there is no color associated with the clear space? It becomes more prominent with too high of a sharpening maneuver.
I've noticed this on professional grade lenses as well as lesser lenses. I'm using Nikon stuff. The pic is from a new 14-24 which is supposed to be a really sharp lens especially for a zoom.
the fisch
I guess it could also be a lens effect if it's not a sharpening issue, although it wouldn't be chromatic aberration, since it's not a color shift. I'm not sure about possible lens causes.
This is a small crop from a RAW shot of a phone/electric wire against a cloudy sky. 300x
I do have my sharpening tweaked up in the camera 2 points above center on my D700, level 7?
Is that the probable cause?
Better to do sharpening in-camera or in processing???
the fisch
It looks like you may have introduced some artifacts by using in-camera sharpening.
It is preferrable to do your sharpening in processing. That way you can tailor sharpening for your output. For example, an image destined for the web (as a jpeg) will require different sharpening as opposed to that required for a 11x14 print.
Although I work with 4x5 film, I'll give an example of my general workflow...
I scan my film and save the unedited, unsharpened scan in a folder. (This is my "RAW" file.)
I open the scan in PS and duplicate it.
I save the duplicate as a tiff or psd file. This becomes my 'Master' file.
I make any needed adjustments to the master file.
From the completed master file I create jpegs, or or files for print, and sharpen accordingly.
So, my scan is similar to your converted RAW file. This file becomes your 'Master' file to which you make adjustments.
--P
OK, I have in-camera sharpening artifacts pictured above as light next to dark lines.
Now, camea settings???
I don't have PS; I use Capture NX2. It is non-destructive so the original should always be available.
Should I set "in-camera sharpening" at midpoint on Nikon settings (default = 5 I believe) or should it be ratcheted back?? I've been shooting at 6 on a scale of 0-9 (10 settings).
There is also a setting below 0 which is A which I presume is auto (will chekc the manual).
the fisch
Make some test images and see what setting gives you the best results.
Cheers,
Mark
That's why I asked if you have an un-processed RAW for the shot above....if you can see it in the RAW with default processing and no sharpening applied (NOTE : in NX2 this might not be your defaults, since it probably reads the camera settings) you probably won't see any halo either.
I'll review my camera manual. There are 10 settings, 0-9 with one "A" before '0'. I need to find out what that A is...
And I'll take some test shots, also.
I basically shoot only RAW but that also includes whatever the camera does based on my settings. I do shoot "standard".
It would seem to be that one could not reduce the "halo" as it has been termed because NX2 starts as zero. The in camera setting arrives at various levels of presharpening which is not new but I did not know sharpening acted by creating clear space (halo) around image edges.
So, for more control, I will reduce or eliminate sharpening in camera
Thanks for the replies. I've learned something.
the fisch
Larry - It very possible that NX2 is reading the settings you have for JPGs, even when you open RAW and applying them for you. So you might want to see if you can tell it to ignore camera settings. You shouldn't be getting halos without doing any processing. And as Hank said, you could create masks so that sharpening doesn't get applied as much to these very high contrast smooth lines. They are the most likely to show haloing. And setting your camera to 0 would have the same effect, if NX2 is reading your in-camera settings.
A couple of things - it's not really "clear"; It's going white from an overabundance of sharpening. Sharpening essentially increase contrast right along that edge. If done too much, especially on an already sharp edge, it can push the pixel values that are close to the edge lighter or darker than the nearby pixels that are further from the edge. This creates lighter (or darker, though less noticable usually) regions right along the edge. If you don't have any lens effects going on, this won't be the case in a minimally processed RAW file. You can pretty easily see this effect on things like mountains against a bright sky, or other high contrast lines, if you crank up the sharpening a lot.
For anyone familiar with ACR/PS, one of the reasons they added smart sharpen is to add "pinning" that USM doesn't have. It "pins" the edge pixel values to fall between the surrounding ones, and largely eliminates the chance of small halos like these.
I'm going to have to invest in PhotoShop.
I will (actually have) set my camer at zero for sharpening.
David mentioned the camera's jpeg values. I had previously selected that value for "Max Quality" but that perhaps imparts "in-camera" settings that spill over into RAW??? I would not think so.
No wonder some photos on NPN "pop" and mine don't.... More than just pulling the trigger, eh !!!!
Thanks again form the time in replying
the fisch
Along those lines, the JPG quality value won't have any effect on the RAW value since it affects either resolution or JPG compression, neither of which can be applied to the RAW file. But if NX2 is applying the JPG settings, it would be for all the other things, like sharpening, contrast, color settings, etc.
But even more revealing was Lon Sharp's post. I had forgotten that NX2 allowed much more maneuvering in the program. So I experimented with some shots but I really need different and better light that snowstorm stuff.
Lon, I even ordered the manual for NX2 but the instructions are vague sometimes, especially in the fill-in stuff which has nothing to do with my subject.
I need to attend a workshop.
Thanks again for all the suggestions and comments--really helpful.
the fisch