Posted by John Robinson on February 16, 2010 at 4:17 PM
I understand that the rules for the comp. this year state that only RAW files will be accepted.
I am not particularly bothered myself as I have only ever entered once,and use JPG all the time anyway
I feel it will put a lot of entrants off and feel it is not really fair. Many amateurs and people just starting use JPG and sometimes come up with( sometimes by fluke) a winning . Now they will not be able to enter. Its almost as if the competition is favouring the "big boys" many of whom will be going out for shots with winning ptential being foremost in their mind.
Not sure if this is good for nature Photography in general.
Interested what others think.
JR
Having to submit the original raw file is a way of helping to protect against excessive manipulation.
However that said, I don't think this is a new condition as if you pass the first set of screening you have always been asked submit the raw file anyway.
T
Posted by Andy Astbury on February 16, 2010 at 4:39 PM
John I would strongly suspect that the RAW stipulation is more to do with curbing the risk of image manipulation outside of the specified allowances than it is anything else.
Posted by John Robinson on February 16, 2010 at 5:18 PM
HI both -
I understand completely why the decision has been taken , but as I tried to say -I just don't think it's fair.
Cheers
JohnR
Posted by John Robinson on February 16, 2010 at 5:24 PM
Nick
No - they say only pictures in the "RAW" format will be accepted.
There is software for detecting any JPG alterations anyway I believe.
JR
Posted by Brett Lewis on February 16, 2010 at 6:19 PM
John,
The rules state the following..
Digital guidelines
Format Images should be submitted as JPEGs, with no interpolation applied. Save JPEGs at the highest possible quality setting (eg 12 in Photoshop).
File size requirements for all entries For the initial submission, images must be 1400 pixels on the longest dimension. Digital images must have been taken on a sufficiently high resolution camera - at least ten (10) million pixels, on the highest setting.
Then..
RAW file (eg *.NEF, *.CR2, *.CRW), DNG files are only permitted if DNG is the native RAW format of the camera. Or original transparency or black and white negative for scan entrants.
High Res file (TIFF) for reproduction in the exhibition and book. This file must be a minimum of 30MB.
So saving your JPEG files as High Res TIFFs would be the way to go if you want to enter..
In the word of a Meerkat I know........ 'SImples'
Brett
Posted by John Robinson on February 16, 2010 at 6:29 PM
Not that simple Brett.
The tiffs are only for the book.
You can enter JPGs but if you get in the selcted list they want a RAW so you have to shoot RAW or not bother to enter.
Any selected as finalists must be accompanied by the RAW file what ever the format for each camera may be. They also stipulate 10 Million Pix minimum which is again unfair in my opinion because a lot of peoples stuff over the past 5 years was on 8 million.
Maybe they have shares in Adobe,too as you almost have to use Photoshop which I , and others may not want to do.
John
Posted by Brett Lewis on February 16, 2010 at 6:48 PM
I guess it does read like that John.. I'm inclined to agree with you as it does make it very unfair for the amateurs for all the reasons you state..
Brett
Posted by Mike Smith on February 17, 2010 at 1:51 AM
John
Most serious "straight" photo competitions stipulate you enter the RAW file as well as jpeg/tiff to assist monitoring excessive manipulation and cloning, WPOTY is no different.
Its not difficult or disruptive simply set your camera to record both RAW and hi res jpeg at the same time, Its my standard setting, - 99% of time I use the jpegs here as Oly's jpegs straight out of the camera need little processing, but there are times when I need the exposure lattitude flexibility in a RAW file for better HDR control of the exposure. It slows down the card write time slightly and uses more space on the card.
Adobe DNG converter is a free piece of software which generates dng files from most RAW file formats, It was supposed to be the "VHS" of RAW formats that can be read by any software editing programme. Again it allows me to use my ancient copy of CS with my newer Oly bodies without having to upgrade every two years
Posted by John Robinson on February 17, 2010 at 7:00 AM
Cheers Mike
I hear what you are saying but it still means I wouldn,t be able to use anything done in the past 5 years which is the time limit, as they are not Raw and a lot aren,t 10 miilion pixels.
As I say-shame for the newcomer who happens to get a winner and is not on the pro gear.
All I am saying is .the comp is really for the big boys. whch it never used to be.
Shame I can.t put my little men in !!
John
I can see your point, but I can also see theres; the raw requirement for photographs in major competitions has been with us for a good few years.
What is more interesting is the stipuulation of at least 10M as this negates any work taken on a 1d2 or D2x or there predecessors, their are plenty of people still shooting the 1D3 and this just tops that limit.
So that'll be my winning entry taken on my 20d flying out the window !!!!
Posted by Matt Cole on February 17, 2010 at 8:54 AM
I still find the rules a little unclear. For instance, at one point it says that interpolation is not allowed but this seems to only refer to the 1400px initial JPEG submission. But why would this need to be interpolated - or do they mean the high res image from which the 1400 px image came mustn't have been interpolated?. If the latter, then how do you achieve a 30mb TIFF image from a 10mp camera?
Also, they say cropping is allowed as long as the TIFF image is 30mb. So, assuming interpolation is allowed, then a 12mp image could be cropped to 8mp and then interpolated to 30mb and this would be allowed, yet an uncropped image from a 8mp camera (and interpolated to the same 30mb file size) wouldn't be allowed.
Is it just me? Probably
Matt
Posted by Tim Taylor on February 17, 2010 at 1:07 PM
I have 'let' Lightroom import files from my cards as .DNG files for the last year or so assuming that these will contain all the info of the original RAW files. I then wipe the card. I wonder if others do the same because again the RAW won't be available.
Tim
Posted by Andrew Forsyth on February 17, 2010 at 5:22 PM
The 10M pixel rule is the biggest annoyance for me, as this knocks out everything I've taken on my workhorse 1d2n and I'm sure that the same will apply to alot of others whether amateur or pro. My highly commended shot from 2009 was taken on this camera and there are plenty more in the can which will just have to be entered into other competitions now. I'll have to see whether I've the odd trannie knocking around otherwise I won't/can't enter WPOTY this year... Silly rule in my opinion.
Andrew
Posted by Danny Green on February 18, 2010 at 3:37 PM
Hello Andrew
I am in the same boat and think this rule stinks, a good percentage of my images are taken on a 1d mk11 and some of my best stuff from this past year is not eligible, so shots like my water vole from a couple of years ago is now not good enough quality when clearly it is because you just have to look at the finished article in that years book and it was as good if not better than anybody elses. If they want to change this rule why don't they give people enough time to change. The worlds gone F"$$**^ mad.
Danny
Posted by John MacTavish on February 18, 2010 at 3:54 PM
What do the winning shots get used for that they need them from min 10mp cameras?
If the competition organisers were happy with 6mp files last year what has changed?
Have the printers demanded better quality files? I doubt it
I don't remember the competition only being open to 6x4.5 or greater when it was in the days of film.
Totally agree with Danny that it seems the whole F:*()%ng world has gone mad
Posted by Andrew Forsyth on February 18, 2010 at 4:03 PM
Bang on Danny. I think they're out of touch with how long it takes to build up a number entries worth sending in, and advance notice would at least let us know where we stand. If this were coming in next year I'd be able to make a considered decision about whether to upgrade or focus my energies elsewhere, rather than put in a huge amount of time and effort only to find this out at the point at which I'm ready to upload. I've fired off a grumble and not heard back yet, but suspect it's way too late in the day for a rule change. Arse, to put it very mildly.
how long it takes to build up a number entries worth sending in
... perhaps that's the problem - it doesn't take that long these days and they're getting too many entries? Same as the Image libraries keep uping their minimum requirements.
If I was being cynical (who me?!?!?) I'd wonder if they (and/or the agencies) get a cut from Canon & Nikon's marketing budgets to keep everyone updating their gear .
Posted by John Robinson on February 18, 2010 at 6:09 PM
Nick
Ooooohh dear !
Now that IS a bit cynical.
At least some are beginning to grasp the jist of my original post.
JR
Posted by Danny Green on February 18, 2010 at 6:10 PM
To be perfectly honest with you Andrew this just about f%$£%^ sums up it all up for me with the way photography is going, what the hell do we need to have all these pixels and ISO performance cameras for. I won the Avian category in Natures best for 2009 with a puffin in flight and this was produced on an 8mp 1dmk11 and this was then displayed as a banner as big as a car. It won that category because it was a f^%$£"* good shot not because it was produced on a big file camera. Mental
Danny
Posted by Danny Green on February 18, 2010 at 6:15 PM
Hello John
Thanks for the heads up on this one John I have just thrown my last remaining camera out of the window.
Posted by John Robinson on February 18, 2010 at 7:28 PM
Love it Des !
I don't have to breathe because I don't enter the comp anyway.
It does in a small way, however explain my point, - that there are photgraphers out there that gear their schedule of photography for the year, or whatever, to encompass or achieve shots they need to put into competitions. (Often the BIG one )
Cheers
JohnR
I have losastuf in 6mp from my 2nd body that I would have liked to send in (I've never entered the comp before) but I guess they do not qualify just by this one rule. Shame.
I have just thrown my last remaining camera out of the window.
Great Danny... now the rest of us have a fighting chance
Posted by Matt Cole on February 19, 2010 at 6:37 AM
but they do say that images can be cropped so does this mean that an image from a 10mp camera can be cropped to below 10mp? Or does the 10mp rule mean that the final, cropped, image must be more than 10mp (it doesn't say that though, it only refers to the camera being 10mp).
This would seem to be within the rules, as long as it can be interpolated to 30mb, but seems a bit daft if uncropped images from, say, an 8mp camera are not allowed.
Anyone?
Matt
Posted by David Taylor on February 19, 2010 at 8:42 AM
Don't enter, if you don't like the rules. It's as simple as that.
Posted by Steve Fletcher on February 23, 2010 at 5:19 AM
Reply posted by David Taylor on 02/19/10 at 1:42 pm GMT
Registered on 04/24/06, 201 Topics, 1815 Replies
Don't enter, if you don't like the rules. It's as simple as that.
Thats not really the point, i for one have been working for over a year to get ( if i do say so myself ) some great images of Montagu's Harriers in flight, and their interaction, and now i cant enter any as they were taken on a 1DMKiiN, 8mp. I could have been sunbathing and laying in bed, instead of getting up at 5 every day, sitting in a sauna of a hide, week after week.
Posted by Andrew Forsyth on February 23, 2010 at 1:33 PM
Steve,
Sorry to hear Steve. I'm in the same boat and grumbled to them via the comp website. I got a nice apology explaining what happened and promising to look at how they make major rule changes like this in future. I don't know whether the 10Mp limit will drop in future tho'.
Perhaps NPN should organise the definitive wildlife photo competition instead? Over to you Nick...
That's too bad Andrew, a great pic is a great pic no matter what Megapixels where used to take it and I'm sure the competition will actually be the poorer for it. I guess the mpixie rule also applies to the junior categories, so it will be interesting to see if daddy updates junior's camera kit too!
I don't think Tom & myself could quite stand the level of entries that WPOTY gets (I think we'd lose the will to live reviewing that many entries!), but it's certainly an interesting idea and one we (UKNP) may come back to in time - although at the moment there is of course the annual Editor's Picks which Jim & Donna choose...
Discussion
32 repliesI am not particularly bothered myself as I have only ever entered once,and use JPG all the time anyway
I feel it will put a lot of entrants off and feel it is not really fair. Many amateurs and people just starting use JPG and sometimes come up with( sometimes by fluke) a winning . Now they will not be able to enter. Its almost as if the competition is favouring the "big boys" many of whom will be going out for shots with winning ptential being foremost in their mind.
Not sure if this is good for nature Photography in general.
Interested what others think.
JR
Having to submit the original raw file is a way of helping to protect against excessive manipulation.
However that said, I don't think this is a new condition as if you pass the first set of screening you have always been asked submit the raw file anyway.
T
I understand completely why the decision has been taken , but as I tried to say -I just don't think it's fair.
Cheers
JohnR
No - they say only pictures in the "RAW" format will be accepted.
There is software for detecting any JPG alterations anyway I believe.
JR
The rules state the following..
Digital guidelines
Format Images should be submitted as JPEGs, with no interpolation applied. Save JPEGs at the highest possible quality setting (eg 12 in Photoshop).
File size requirements for all entries For the initial submission, images must be 1400 pixels on the longest dimension. Digital images must have been taken on a sufficiently high resolution camera - at least ten (10) million pixels, on the highest setting.
Then..
RAW file (eg *.NEF, *.CR2, *.CRW), DNG files are only permitted if DNG is the native RAW format of the camera. Or original transparency or black and white negative for scan entrants.
High Res file (TIFF) for reproduction in the exhibition and book. This file must be a minimum of 30MB.
So saving your JPEG files as High Res TIFFs would be the way to go if you want to enter..
In the word of a Meerkat I know........ 'SImples'
Brett
The tiffs are only for the book.
You can enter JPGs but if you get in the selcted list they want a RAW so you have to shoot RAW or not bother to enter.
Any selected as finalists must be accompanied by the RAW file what ever the format for each camera may be. They also stipulate 10 Million Pix minimum which is again unfair in my opinion because a lot of peoples stuff over the past 5 years was on 8 million.
Maybe they have shares in Adobe,too as you almost have to use Photoshop which I , and others may not want to do.
John
Brett
Most serious "straight" photo competitions stipulate you enter the RAW file as well as jpeg/tiff to assist monitoring excessive manipulation and cloning, WPOTY is no different.
Its not difficult or disruptive simply set your camera to record both RAW and hi res jpeg at the same time, Its my standard setting, - 99% of time I use the jpegs here as Oly's jpegs straight out of the camera need little processing, but there are times when I need the exposure lattitude flexibility in a RAW file for better HDR control of the exposure. It slows down the card write time slightly and uses more space on the card.
Adobe DNG converter is a free piece of software which generates dng files from most RAW file formats, It was supposed to be the "VHS" of RAW formats that can be read by any software editing programme. Again it allows me to use my ancient copy of CS with my newer Oly bodies without having to upgrade every two years
I hear what you are saying but it still means I wouldn,t be able to use anything done in the past 5 years which is the time limit, as they are not Raw and a lot aren,t 10 miilion pixels.
As I say-shame for the newcomer who happens to get a winner and is not on the pro gear.
All I am saying is .the comp is really for the big boys. whch it never used to be.
Shame I can.t put my little men in !!
John
I can see your point, but I can also see theres; the raw requirement for photographs in major competitions has been with us for a good few years.
What is more interesting is the stipuulation of at least 10M as this negates any work taken on a 1d2 or D2x or there predecessors, their are plenty of people still shooting the 1D3 and this just tops that limit.
T.
Also, they say cropping is allowed as long as the TIFF image is 30mb. So, assuming interpolation is allowed, then a 12mp image could be cropped to 8mp and then interpolated to 30mb and this would be allowed, yet an uncropped image from a 8mp camera (and interpolated to the same 30mb file size) wouldn't be allowed.
Is it just me? Probably
Matt
Tim
Andrew
I am in the same boat and think this rule stinks, a good percentage of my images are taken on a 1d mk11 and some of my best stuff from this past year is not eligible, so shots like my water vole from a couple of years ago is now not good enough quality when clearly it is because you just have to look at the finished article in that years book and it was as good if not better than anybody elses. If they want to change this rule why don't they give people enough time to change. The worlds gone F"$$**^ mad.
Danny
If the competition organisers were happy with 6mp files last year what has changed?
Have the printers demanded better quality files? I doubt it
I don't remember the competition only being open to 6x4.5 or greater when it was in the days of film.
Totally agree with Danny that it seems the whole F:*()%ng world has gone mad
If I was being cynical (who me?!?!?) I'd wonder if they (and/or the agencies) get a cut from Canon & Nikon's marketing budgets to keep everyone updating their gear
Ooooohh dear !
Now that IS a bit cynical.
At least some are beginning to grasp the jist of my original post.
JR
Danny
Thanks for the heads up on this one John I have just thrown my last remaining camera out of the window.
Danny
I don't have to breathe because I don't enter the comp anyway.
It does in a small way, however explain my point, - that there are photgraphers out there that gear their schedule of photography for the year, or whatever, to encompass or achieve shots they need to put into competitions. (Often the BIG one )
Cheers
JohnR
Great Danny... now the rest of us have a fighting chance
This would seem to be within the rules, as long as it can be interpolated to 30mb, but seems a bit daft if uncropped images from, say, an 8mp camera are not allowed.
Anyone?
Matt
Registered on 04/24/06, 201 Topics, 1815 Replies
Don't enter, if you don't like the rules. It's as simple as that.
Thats not really the point, i for one have been working for over a year to get ( if i do say so myself ) some great images of Montagu's Harriers in flight, and their interaction, and now i cant enter any as they were taken on a 1DMKiiN, 8mp. I could have been sunbathing and laying in bed, instead of getting up at 5 every day, sitting in a sauna of a hide, week after week.
Sorry to hear Steve. I'm in the same boat and grumbled to them via the comp website. I got a nice apology explaining what happened and promising to look at how they make major rule changes like this in future. I don't know whether the 10Mp limit will drop in future tho'.
Perhaps NPN should organise the definitive wildlife photo competition instead? Over to you Nick...
Andrew
I don't think Tom & myself could quite stand the level of entries that WPOTY gets (I think we'd lose the will to live reviewing that many entries!), but it's certainly an interesting idea and one we (UKNP) may come back to in time - although at the moment there is of course the annual Editor's Picks which Jim & Donna choose...