Posted by Dan Borzynski on March 20, 2010 at 10:40 PM
Keeping mind that I am not 100% certain of what I am asking here, feel free to speak slowly and use small words
I am looking at larger external hard drives for backups. As it currently stands, I have 5-6 TB of drives spread over a fair umber of stand-alone Western Digital hard drives and geography.
I'd like to keep things a bit more organized and tidy on the desk so I looked for and found the Drobo drives systems. It looks like a good idea, but perhaps a bit more expensive than I really want (or can afford).
I also found external hard drive enclosures that will hold up to 3 internal hard drives in one unit.
I think the primary difference is that in the second, non-Drobo unit, I'll be plugging things into multiple USB ports, one for each drive, or the computer will recognize the units as three separate drives accessible through the same USB port. Or something like that. Does that sound right?
With the Drobo, the entire enclosure will look like one drive to my computer. I think the advantage here is that I only have to look for files over "1" drive (the Drobo), rather than several drives in the non-Drobo option. It is a convenience issue. Does that sound right?
Are there any disadvantages or other considerations for the non-Drobo systems, other than convenience?
Are there any designs, brands, formats, etc, that I should be looking for or avoiding in the multiunit drive enclosures?
What other questions should have I asked above?
I am running Windows XP 32 bit home edition. I will eventually be upgrading to Windows 7 64 bit, but not for at least a year.
Thanks.
Posted by David Bostedo on March 20, 2010 at 11:53 PM
Dan - The main reason most people buy a Drobo is to get a robust RAID system, where if one drive fails, you can swap it out with a new one and not lose anything or have to restore anything. There are lots of different RAID schemes (numbered : RAID 0, RAID 1, etc. I think RAID 1 or RAID 5 are most typically used, but I've not used it myself.) The Drobo has a built in hardware RAID controller, which handles the building and maintenance of the RAID for you. (Software RAID controllers exist, but wind up slowing down your whole system a bit for any drive operation I think.)
The second advantage, as you said, is that you can have several drives show up as one large volume. I haven't heard of as many people using it this way, since it doesn't give you any redundancy. It certainly gives you the potential to have a large expandable, upgradable storage unit - but you're not making use of the RAID controller.
I'm also not quite familiar with the other enclosures you're talking about. The ones I've seen (such as those from Buffalo) are much like the Drobo, in that they're self contained and have one input/output connection. I don't think I've seen any with multiple connections for each drive.
So basically, I'd look at one of these for it's RAID capability, and expansive space capability both. But also keep in mind that these are a redundancy scheme, but not really a good back-up scheme, since they are designed to keep your data up to date all the time. So any problem with your original data in a RAID system will get propagated across all of your disks. Most people using RAIDs still keep original files or finished files on separate, detached media. That could be CDs, DVDs, portable drives, or online storage.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on March 21, 2010 at 12:14 AM
David - thanks for the comments.
I'm not really looking for specifically for a RAID system. I'm extremely good about backing up by hand. Automated propagation of errors through an entire array of drives is worrisome and part of the reason I'm not real big on RAIDs. I've also wondered what happens when you get a virus determined to mess with the hard drive files - that probably can't be a good combination. They are great for getting back up and running quickly but as you said, really not a backup strategy.
The worst case is that I am maybe a week out of date, hours for anything critical. I even keep the original RAW files on the card until I have two copies on two different drives and I have finished processing and backing up the processed files.
I think the Buffalo enclosures and similar are what I was looking at earlier this evening. As I said, I'm not real familar with them, how they work or for that matter exactly what I was looking at.
What I am after is:
Moving the half dozen or so drives hanging around my desk somewhere else, and even using those for updating my offsite drives without the originals leaving home.
Having a version of the original on one drive(s) quickly accessible rather than picking through the backups drives on my desk, multiple USB cords and multiple power cords.
Speed isn't too critical. I'm comfortable with drag and drop and letting things go for an hour, since is what happens now.
Reliability - I was planning to use Western Direct internal drives. I am assuming that the manufacturer of any enclosure will work with them.
Dan, given your goals, I would strongly suggest an online storage solution in conjunction with local raid storage, and a robust antivirus program that will trap viruses as files are moved around.
Online storage such as Carbonite or Mozy will let you have unlimited data storage for around $55-$60 per year. Either using their software or Syncback SE from Two Bright Lights - you can manage all of your data movement and unattended backups. If you have access to the internet you have access to your files wherever you may be.
A local, RAID based storage server like a Drobo, or a free, open source software solution like the Linux-based Unraid or Freenas which will take an old PC and turn it into a storage server. Everyone has old PCs, and if not, you could always hang around the recycling center and grab one before it hits the crusher.
One thing about reliability - mechanical hard drives fail. Cheap hard drives fail more often. Enterprise-rated hard drives have two advantages - unusually fast performance and high availability. These are designed to go into huge drive arrays to serve mission critical applications. As such they are manufactured to higher standards, and are tested more rigorously and consequently less likely to fail. But they will cost you. But as you consider the cost, think of what it would cost to recover failed drives. The enterprise drive solution is very cheap by comparison. You can expect to pay $.75-$2 per gigabyte for an enterprise drive, compared to as little as $.08/gig on the cheap stuff. Western Digital has three "consumer" drives - the green, blue and black series. You'll pay a little more for a black, but it is a bit more reliable than the others. Big difference is the dual bearing on the drive, as opposed to the green and blue which only have a single bearing. The two bearing design is less likely to mis-read and get sloppy over time as well.
You could always get a plug and play Bytebrick 45TB Storage Server and call it a day - and your will likely consider trading in your significant other as well since it has a price tag of $30,000.
Posted by David Bostedo on March 21, 2010 at 10:41 AM
The only problem I have with online storage options is "trust". Do you trust them to keep your data secure, do you trust that they won't lose it, and do you trust that they will still be in business down the road. If so, then it seems like a good option - although you'll need a very fast connection if you want to transfer entire catalogs. It could take a very long time for large transfers.
Western Digital is generally the best bet right now, but the other major brands are good as well. But for reliability reasons, as Gene says, RAID (or a system like Drobo that does it's thing for you) is really the way to go.
You could go with a more generic enclosure for multiple drives and still see some nice advantages in terms of usability of your drives. (Something like this box maybe?) It would certainly be nicer than trying to plug/unplug drives and see which ones they are if you don't know. But in that case, when a drive fails you'll replace it, then have to rebuild it manually from whatever backups you have.
David, thank you for raising a valid concern - I just found out that Carbonite is not backing up my video files - very interesting - they canceled the backup of video files a while ago without telling anyone - video was not originally excluded when I signed on almost a year ago. Well, thanks to you, I will not be renewing, and very likely, taking care of stuff entirely on my own from this point forward. I did a quick search and found that the other online backup solution, Mozy, is no better. And both have horrible tech support. Oh well, you live and learn. So everyone - forget what I said about online backup - at least the cheap ones. I guess I owe you one, David.
Posted by David Bostedo on March 21, 2010 at 5:20 PM
Gene - I've heard a few stories like that, which is why I brought it up. Glad you found out now, before relying on it too much. Maybe Google or Yahoo could start offering backup - at least they'd be unlikely to disappear on you overnight. I know there are companies that guarantee data retreival for set amounts of time, and have solid contracts for security and integrity - but they are business oriented and probably very expensive.
Back in February I had one drive of a RAID 0 array*** go south. Result...Unable to boot into XP. I lost my OS and all my installed programs. Fortunately, I had all my documents and images backed up to a WD External USB drive.
The fix: Installed a single new 500GB WD drive, clean install of my OS and programs, and retrieval of my documents: it was sooo much fun, I no longer use a RAID. I have a second 500GB WD internal that I'll install this week. It will be used to backup my enitre primary drive; OS and all. Images are now backed up on my external drive and on an HD on the other computer on my network.
***RAID 0 uses two drive of equal size. The controller 'stripes' the data to each drive, part of it to one drive and part to the other. If one drive fails, you're toast. RAID 0 is fast, but the risk is great. I suggest that if you want to use DRobo, set it up as a RAID 1: The data one one volume is instantly mirrored to the other volume providing redundancy. If one drive takes a hike, you're still in business.
I also suggest, basd upon my recent experience, that you install a second internal drive and then clone your primary drive to it ( I will use Acronis True Image). This will allow you to switch boot drives, start up your OS and be back in business when your primary boot drives fails.
I may yet purchase a DRobo, as I've heard good things about it. It's not inexpensive, as has already been pointed out, but the reliability and peace of mind might negate the cost to a degree.
--P
Posted by Dan Borzynski on March 21, 2010 at 8:00 PM
I currently have two hard drives in my primary machine. It is a long story, but the second drive has all of the programs I use on it, with the exception of any updates released in the last two years or so. I can always take that drive and use it as a boot drive, if I needed to.
That second drive is my first primary backup drive. Anything I am currently working on gets manually backed up to that drive at the end of my working sessions. Hard drive backup to external drives occurs about weekly, unless there is something important is being worked on. Even then, the original memory card doesn't get reformatted until I get the external backup done.
Discussion
8 repliesI am looking at larger external hard drives for backups. As it currently stands, I have 5-6 TB of drives spread over a fair umber of stand-alone Western Digital hard drives and geography.
I'd like to keep things a bit more organized and tidy on the desk so I looked for and found the Drobo drives systems. It looks like a good idea, but perhaps a bit more expensive than I really want (or can afford).
I also found external hard drive enclosures that will hold up to 3 internal hard drives in one unit.
I think the primary difference is that in the second, non-Drobo unit, I'll be plugging things into multiple USB ports, one for each drive, or the computer will recognize the units as three separate drives accessible through the same USB port. Or something like that. Does that sound right?
With the Drobo, the entire enclosure will look like one drive to my computer. I think the advantage here is that I only have to look for files over "1" drive (the Drobo), rather than several drives in the non-Drobo option. It is a convenience issue. Does that sound right?
Are there any disadvantages or other considerations for the non-Drobo systems, other than convenience?
Are there any designs, brands, formats, etc, that I should be looking for or avoiding in the multiunit drive enclosures?
What other questions should have I asked above?
I am running Windows XP 32 bit home edition. I will eventually be upgrading to Windows 7 64 bit, but not for at least a year.
Thanks.
The second advantage, as you said, is that you can have several drives show up as one large volume. I haven't heard of as many people using it this way, since it doesn't give you any redundancy. It certainly gives you the potential to have a large expandable, upgradable storage unit - but you're not making use of the RAID controller.
I'm also not quite familiar with the other enclosures you're talking about. The ones I've seen (such as those from Buffalo) are much like the Drobo, in that they're self contained and have one input/output connection. I don't think I've seen any with multiple connections for each drive.
So basically, I'd look at one of these for it's RAID capability, and expansive space capability both. But also keep in mind that these are a redundancy scheme, but not really a good back-up scheme, since they are designed to keep your data up to date all the time. So any problem with your original data in a RAID system will get propagated across all of your disks. Most people using RAIDs still keep original files or finished files on separate, detached media. That could be CDs, DVDs, portable drives, or online storage.
I'm not really looking for specifically for a RAID system. I'm extremely good about backing up by hand. Automated propagation of errors through an entire array of drives is worrisome and part of the reason I'm not real big on RAIDs. I've also wondered what happens when you get a virus determined to mess with the hard drive files - that probably can't be a good combination. They are great for getting back up and running quickly but as you said, really not a backup strategy.
The worst case is that I am maybe a week out of date, hours for anything critical. I even keep the original RAW files on the card until I have two copies on two different drives and I have finished processing and backing up the processed files.
I think the Buffalo enclosures and similar are what I was looking at earlier this evening. As I said, I'm not real familar with them, how they work or for that matter exactly what I was looking at.
What I am after is:
Moving the half dozen or so drives hanging around my desk somewhere else, and even using those for updating my offsite drives without the originals leaving home.
Having a version of the original on one drive(s) quickly accessible rather than picking through the backups drives on my desk, multiple USB cords and multiple power cords.
Speed isn't too critical. I'm comfortable with drag and drop and letting things go for an hour, since is what happens now.
Reliability - I was planning to use Western Direct internal drives. I am assuming that the manufacturer of any enclosure will work with them.
Thanks.
Online storage such as Carbonite or Mozy will let you have unlimited data storage for around $55-$60 per year. Either using their software or Syncback SE from Two Bright Lights - you can manage all of your data movement and unattended backups. If you have access to the internet you have access to your files wherever you may be.
A local, RAID based storage server like a Drobo, or a free, open source software solution like the Linux-based Unraid or Freenas which will take an old PC and turn it into a storage server. Everyone has old PCs, and if not, you could always hang around the recycling center and grab one before it hits the crusher.
Came across this at Tigerdirect:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3258543&Tab=11&NoMapp=
One thing about reliability - mechanical hard drives fail. Cheap hard drives fail more often. Enterprise-rated hard drives have two advantages - unusually fast performance and high availability. These are designed to go into huge drive arrays to serve mission critical applications. As such they are manufactured to higher standards, and are tested more rigorously and consequently less likely to fail. But they will cost you. But as you consider the cost, think of what it would cost to recover failed drives. The enterprise drive solution is very cheap by comparison. You can expect to pay $.75-$2 per gigabyte for an enterprise drive, compared to as little as $.08/gig on the cheap stuff. Western Digital has three "consumer" drives - the green, blue and black series. You'll pay a little more for a black, but it is a bit more reliable than the others. Big difference is the dual bearing on the drive, as opposed to the green and blue which only have a single bearing. The two bearing design is less likely to mis-read and get sloppy over time as well.
I came across this article which might help:
http://www.mahalo.com/how-to-back-up-your-computer-hard-drive
You could always get a plug and play Bytebrick 45TB Storage Server and call it a day - and your will likely consider trading in your significant other as well since it has a price tag of $30,000.
Western Digital is generally the best bet right now, but the other major brands are good as well. But for reliability reasons, as Gene says, RAID (or a system like Drobo that does it's thing for you) is really the way to go.
You could go with a more generic enclosure for multiple drives and still see some nice advantages in terms of usability of your drives. (Something like this box maybe?) It would certainly be nicer than trying to plug/unplug drives and see which ones they are if you don't know. But in that case, when a drive fails you'll replace it, then have to rebuild it manually from whatever backups you have.
The fix: Installed a single new 500GB WD drive, clean install of my OS and programs, and retrieval of my documents: it was sooo much fun, I no longer use a RAID. I have a second 500GB WD internal that I'll install this week. It will be used to backup my enitre primary drive; OS and all. Images are now backed up on my external drive and on an HD on the other computer on my network.
***RAID 0 uses two drive of equal size. The controller 'stripes' the data to each drive, part of it to one drive and part to the other. If one drive fails, you're toast. RAID 0 is fast, but the risk is great. I suggest that if you want to use DRobo, set it up as a RAID 1: The data one one volume is instantly mirrored to the other volume providing redundancy. If one drive takes a hike, you're still in business.
I also suggest, basd upon my recent experience, that you install a second internal drive and then clone your primary drive to it ( I will use Acronis True Image). This will allow you to switch boot drives, start up your OS and be back in business when your primary boot drives fails.
I may yet purchase a DRobo, as I've heard good things about it. It's not inexpensive, as has already been pointed out, but the reliability and peace of mind might negate the cost to a degree.
--P
That second drive is my first primary backup drive. Anything I am currently working on gets manually backed up to that drive at the end of my working sessions. Hard drive backup to external drives occurs about weekly, unless there is something important is being worked on. Even then, the original memory card doesn't get reformatted until I get the external backup done.
Thanks to all for their information.