I was thinking of driving to White Pocket in the Vermilion Cliffs in the next couple of weeks. I have read that a high clearance 4x4 is needed, but wanted to ask the group if I could get by with an all-wheel drive CRV. My thought was to drive as far as I can before reaching the deep sand sections, then hike from there. Is this plan reasonable? If so, what is the best route to drive and how far of a hike would I be looking at?
Thanks,
Eric
Denver
Posted by Doug Koepsel on April 7, 2010 at 6:03 PM
Come from the south end off the 1017 road, and not past Paw Hole of South Coyote Buttes which causes you to go up a steeper sandy hill .The first "deep" sand is by the old buildings and windmill at Poverty Flat. I would suggest deflating your tires some for a bigger footprint, and a good pump to reinflate. About a mile before White Pocket, there is a longish hill of deep sand that has almost stopped my 4wd PU on the way out, but did stop the guy behind me and required a tug with a tow strap. Go fast and don't slow down.
The hike from Poverty Flat to White Pocket would be about 5 miles, which is calf killer in the sand.
From the net:
(Alternative route to the Poverty Flat Ranch and Windmill Intersection: At the Lone Tree Reservoir/ House Rock Valley Road Intersection you may opt to continue another 4 miles to the south on House Rock Valley Road to the road intersection 1017. Turn left (east) on 1017 and then travel 3 miles east to the junction bearing north-east and another 3 miles to Red Pocket. Traveling north-east for another 2.5 miles puts you at the Ranch and Windmill, and the junction to either Cottonwood Spring or White Pocket. This option of driving is longer, but does not require 4WD until after the Windmill.)
Once at the Windmill, travel northeast passing the windmill just on your left and a group of buildings on your right. The road now becomes quite sandy as it ascends a hill, toward a large water tank resting on a knoll 100 yards away. Be sure to keep up momentum and follow this sandy road to the east and then north for 1.8 miles until it arrives at a corral and fence. At this point the road will turn right and follow alongside the fence for a short time and continues east for 2.8 miles and then steers northeast for another 1.5 miles
and ends past a corral in a very sandy area with a BLM rail fence. This is the parking area and trailhead. "White Pocket" monolith will have been visible during the drive at various times, and at the trailhead/parking area it is just a half mile to the west.
Eric, I wouldn't try this if it were my vehicle. My concern is that you won't recognize a bad section until you are in the middle of it. The road conditions/sand drifts can vary drastically, so I won't even try to guess how far you could get.
I visited for the first time last year and found the southern route rather easy with a stock Jeep Wrangler.
Definately come in from the south on the Corral Valley road. Its much easier. Well after Poverty Flat, when nearing White Pocket, there is a large fairly steep hill you have to negotiate (downhill on the way in, but uphill on the way out) that is VERY sandy. My friend got his 4runner stuck last fall on this hill. It has been very wet this winter/spring out here, so you might be ok, but even when damp, its a risky drive with a CRV.
I wouldn't use an all wheel drive at all...especially coming back out as Adam noted. You need a vehicle capable of 4 low in order to negotiate the deep sand.
The expense of a tow is prohibitive (hundreds of $$$ at least) assuming you even had cell phone contact out there.
Either rent a stout 4 wheel drive or walk many miles.
You really need to camp there overnight in order to take advantage of the sweetest light anyway, so renting a Jeep may be your best bet.
For what it's worth, I went there last week via Paw Hole and the sand wasn't bad. Now seems to be a good time to go, though I'm sure conditions could change quickly w/out rain. I never needed 4 low, didn't need to deflate the tires, and was never even mildly worried about the sand. But I have a Chevy Avalanche with brand new $1,000 tires. On that particular day, I would have been willing to take a CRV there. BUT conditions can change, so don't take this as a recommendation. If you have a lot of experience driving that car in tricky situations, I think you could make it all the way without a problem. But that's a big IF. If possible, I wouldn't go alone, I'd tell someone where you're going, take plenty of food and water. Or, better yet, just rent a Jeep Wrangler for a day.
A couple recommendations if you want to take your CRV in there.
1) You can help your car perform much better in sand by lowering the air pressure of your tires to 10psi give or take. If you start to spin in the sand stop immediately and do this. PepBoys sells a decent high volume portable compressor for $50 that will get you aired back up to street pressure.
2) you might be helped by having a tire with a more aggressive tread like the BF Goodrich TAKO (All Terrain) or TAKM (Mud Terrain - which would look really funny on a CRV).
Personally, I don't find 4-low to be much help in deep sand and I've done lots of technical 4-wheeling. The extra torque can dig you in fast. Consistent smooth speed and throttle is much better in sand. An easy foot on the gas with all wheel drive can be better. Also AWD often uses limited slip differential front, rear and center (I know Subaru and Audi both do this). The various limited slips help move power from wheels that slip to wheels that grip. That can perform better than 4WD with open diffs (like a stock wrangler) in many situations. My Wrangler Rubicon on the other hand has selectable locking differentials, which can provide even more traction in slick conditions. I don't know if the CRV uses limited slip differentials, but you could find out easily enough.
Last but not least, its best to go with another vehicle and if that isn't possible, make sure someone knows where you'll be and when you expect to enter and exit.
Posted by Mel Ladewig on April 8, 2010 at 12:53 PM
Just to be on the safe side. Colorado Springs had a couple police helicopters for sale. A bargain at $160K
Posted by Darren Huski on April 9, 2010 at 6:18 AM
I cannot testify as to White Pocket roads, but the Honda CRV and Element are suprisingly good in their capabilities.
I have an Element and I get to alot of places that I see other vehicles slip or get stuck in. I can just putt on through snow, muck, etc where other will start to spin. Clearance is the big issue for them. I have seen a first gen CRV make it out on the rugged Williams Ranch Road in Guadalupe Mountains. My buddies Grand Cherokee scrapes when we take it there, but I saw a CRV make it. My Element had no problem in Monument Valley with two days of snow in it. I saw several cars and pickups not be able to get out of the valley (no traction) and my E had zero problem.
I've never driven a CRV but I can say that a lot of being able to negotiate difficult terrain has to do with driver skill. I went from a modified Jeep Wrangler to a stock Jeep Cherokee and have driven some of the more difficult local trails in the Cherokee without too much more trouble. You just have to be careful, scout difficult sections of trail and pick the best path through before driving into them. And back off if you are unsure. You don't want to get stuck in the middle of nowhere with a long walk to support (but pack as if you were going to anyway).
Also the suggestion about partially deflating tires is an old Jeeper's trick and highly recommended. It'll increase traction significantly (like 250%). Just don't too low because you don't want to break the seal between the rim and tire. On my 235/r15/75 tires I go 15-18 PSI.
Speaking of tires, I recommend taking a full-size spare tire and not the donut spare. The latter will be another liability and probably won't get you out of the wilderness.
Posted by Laurent Baig on April 9, 2010 at 5:50 PM
Take some carpet with you, but I wouldn't recommend it in an AWD. You're only spinning one wheel at a time.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on April 14, 2010 at 1:10 PM
Eric, I know a group of 3 photographers that will be heading to White Pocket during the weekend of April 24th. At least one of them has a Rubicon. I believe they plan on camping there. If you want to catch a ride, or just tag along with them let me know and I'll put you in contact.
Discussion
13 repliesThanks,
Eric
Denver
The hike from Poverty Flat to White Pocket would be about 5 miles, which is calf killer in the sand.
From the net:
(Alternative route to the Poverty Flat Ranch and Windmill Intersection: At the Lone Tree Reservoir/ House Rock Valley Road Intersection you may opt to continue another 4 miles to the south on House Rock Valley Road to the road intersection 1017. Turn left (east) on 1017 and then travel 3 miles east to the junction bearing north-east and another 3 miles to Red Pocket. Traveling north-east for another 2.5 miles puts you at the Ranch and Windmill, and the junction to either Cottonwood Spring or White Pocket. This option of driving is longer, but does not require 4WD until after the Windmill.)
Once at the Windmill, travel northeast passing the windmill just on your left and a group of buildings on your right. The road now becomes quite sandy as it ascends a hill, toward a large water tank resting on a knoll 100 yards away. Be sure to keep up momentum and follow this sandy road to the east and then north for 1.8 miles until it arrives at a corral and fence. At this point the road will turn right and follow alongside the fence for a short time and continues east for 2.8 miles and then steers northeast for another 1.5 miles
and ends past a corral in a very sandy area with a BLM rail fence. This is the parking area and trailhead. "White Pocket" monolith will have been visible during the drive at various times, and at the trailhead/parking area it is just a half mile to the west.
I visited for the first time last year and found the southern route rather easy with a stock Jeep Wrangler.
The expense of a tow is prohibitive (hundreds of $$$ at least) assuming you even had cell phone contact out there.
Either rent a stout 4 wheel drive or walk many miles.
You really need to camp there overnight in order to take advantage of the sweetest light anyway, so renting a Jeep may be your best bet.
1) You can help your car perform much better in sand by lowering the air pressure of your tires to 10psi give or take. If you start to spin in the sand stop immediately and do this. PepBoys sells a decent high volume portable compressor for $50 that will get you aired back up to street pressure.
2) you might be helped by having a tire with a more aggressive tread like the BF Goodrich TAKO (All Terrain) or TAKM (Mud Terrain - which would look really funny on a CRV).
Personally, I don't find 4-low to be much help in deep sand and I've done lots of technical 4-wheeling. The extra torque can dig you in fast. Consistent smooth speed and throttle is much better in sand. An easy foot on the gas with all wheel drive can be better. Also AWD often uses limited slip differential front, rear and center (I know Subaru and Audi both do this). The various limited slips help move power from wheels that slip to wheels that grip. That can perform better than 4WD with open diffs (like a stock wrangler) in many situations. My Wrangler Rubicon on the other hand has selectable locking differentials, which can provide even more traction in slick conditions. I don't know if the CRV uses limited slip differentials, but you could find out easily enough.
Last but not least, its best to go with another vehicle and if that isn't possible, make sure someone knows where you'll be and when you expect to enter and exit.
Mel-
I have an Element and I get to alot of places that I see other vehicles slip or get stuck in. I can just putt on through snow, muck, etc where other will start to spin. Clearance is the big issue for them. I have seen a first gen CRV make it out on the rugged Williams Ranch Road in Guadalupe Mountains. My buddies Grand Cherokee scrapes when we take it there, but I saw a CRV make it. My Element had no problem in Monument Valley with two days of snow in it. I saw several cars and pickups not be able to get out of the valley (no traction) and my E had zero problem.
Good luck!
Eric
Also the suggestion about partially deflating tires is an old Jeeper's trick and highly recommended. It'll increase traction significantly (like 250%). Just don't too low because you don't want to break the seal between the rim and tire. On my 235/r15/75 tires I go 15-18 PSI.
Speaking of tires, I recommend taking a full-size spare tire and not the donut spare. The latter will be another liability and probably won't get you out of the wilderness.