Image usage question

Howdy all. So, I was recently contacted via my website about images usage, which is always cool! They asked what I would charge for one time usage, and “large enough file to blow up to 30 x 50”. That was pretty much it for details. So, I sent a reply back with a price based on fine art print usage, it was in the couple hundred dollar range. A couple days later I got this response (edited for names):


Hi Brent, Sorry but your price is way off. I am in the custom poster art printing business and I find images to print for various designers. A royalty is generally 6% for an image that already exists. I represent {PHOTOGRAPHER NAME REMOVED} for example, and when we use his images he gets 8% because he is well known as opposed to the normal 6%. Admittedly this is generally for hotels so guest room quantities are higher. If we sold 100 20 x 30 prints to a hotel they would be priced at about $25 each or $2500 total and {PHOTOGRAPHER NAME REMOVED} would receive 8% or $200. A single print in the commercial design world might be $250 retail and the royalty would be closer to 10% or $25.
I realize you have the task of scanning the image we can pay more but it doesn't negate our price points. My customer has asked for a single print as a sample and I don't yet know what this is for but I will find out. What I can do for you is to print you some large prints in exchange for your scanning efforts and pay you a standard royalty. If this turns out to be for hotel guest rooms then there would be more in it for you. So the best I can offer right now is 2 or 3 prints (your choice on size) and $25. All you have to do is make the scan and send it to me via ftp.
One other thing. Though we sell our prints as posters the prints themselves are actually archival giclee prints on nice paper. They are not on fine art paper but Epson Enhanced Matte from Epson printers.




Maybe my fault for not asking more questions first, but they also didn’t (and apparently still don’t) know what the actual end use is yet.

Have any of you dealt with set ups like this, does it sound normal or standard? Nice of him to offer prints I guess, but heck, I work at a commercial lab, so large prints aren’t a problem for me. But $25? FYI, I’m not going to do the deal, more based on a bad feeling, but I at least wanted to pass this by you all to see what you think. Thoughts?

I think that your goal is not just to sell images but to sell images for a profit or to sell them within a price range that you have determined is reasonable for your work (regardless what someone else is willing to sell it for). That being the case, if a person makes an offer that is not within your acceptable price range and you don't think it's possible to negotiate them into your range (as is the case here), then you just take a pass on it. You should feel comfortable walking away from the deal just because it doesn't make business sense.

Ah, so this is what someone's brain looks like on CRACK! With a response like that, my inclination would be to tell the person that if they ever contact you again, you'll call the police and have them arrested for general douchebaggery. With a thought process like that regarding the value of your work, I wouldn't sell them rights to your dog's photos, let alone your own. That is, truly, without question, hands down, no doubt about it, the lamest response to a price offer I've ever seen. I'd be shocked, appalled and deeply disappointed if it was supported by actual facts.

BTW, is (PHOTOGRAPHER NAME REMOVED) really a big shot photographer? Is it someone you can contact and see if this person is for real? And if so, can you please berate him/her for the rest of us for ever accepting a "deal" like this? This is really insulting to our profession!

I think your instincts are right Brent. There seems to be something awry with this. Only a $200 profit for 100 20x30 prints (especially for giclee prints on Epson paper no less) doesn't add up. Even if these poster prints were produced on a cheap 100 lb paper gloss on an offset press with a massive quantity discount, that kind of "profit margin" don't even come close to becoming reasonable for the photographer.

Brent.... I do not know anything about print sales but OMG...that person is crazy. And knowing your work ...your art is worth much more than that Mr!!!! Like Todd (this man is so funny) said this "general douchebaggery )

Brent,

I've gotta agree w/ Todd on this one. I would absolutely not do business with him under any circumstances. D-bag to the max, in my opinion.

Yeah, this guy's an idiot. With the lack of details he provided, a couple hundred bucks for a 30x50 print is very reasonable. And $200 for 100 20x30 prints is way too low. Hotels do generally get big discounts for big orders, but this is still about 10 times less than what a photographer should receive. I have allowed legitimate art consultants to do a test print for a hotel for around $25, but that was with the understanding that, if the hotel accepted it, they would purchase all additional prints at around $25. And his customer asked for a single print as a sample but the doesn't know what it's for?? That just sounds fishy and strange. He should not even ask a photographer for a quote before knowing what it's for.

This would be my response:

"Sorry but your price is way off. I am in the professional photography business and use a 4x5 camera that produces incredible quality images at 20x30. I do not give away my images for $2 each. If you want to get prints for $2 each, please find an amateur photographer who uses a 2MP point and shoot camera."

100% agree with Todd on this one. I would tell this guy to go do something that is not appropriate to say here on the forum. On the tone of his email alone, I would tell him to bugger off. Maroons like this guy think they can get away with stuff like this, and maybe in a few cases he actually has, but he needs a reality check. You can make more than that by selling stock, and I believe those companies totally rip you off and don't value your work. This guy is just down out of his mind.

Todd--I needed the laugh!! Fighting some issues with State officials that fall into the same category you descibe. You stating it just put it in the right perspective and made me laugh.

Totally agree with everything :)

This kind of situation is not only true here but in other professions as well. In the fly fishing industry this is very true in many areas such as Guiding, Fly Tying etc. Companies and people are willing to settle for less/less quality and some are willing to give it away in efforts of making the quicker and easier buck. Alot of the "mom and pop" fly shops are out of business due to the big guns like Sportsmens Warehouse, Wal-mart etc. Alot due to the fact its cheaper and more people support cheaper--getting the "deal". Where ever and When ever I can I support and buy from the quality little guy.

Sorry for my rant--frustrating day with state officials

I would tell the man to go pound sand!!

Again Todd thanks for the humor-needed it :)

Brent, I will give you $3 per image to print your images and sell them! This could turn into a lucrative business... I need to open a gallery! Anybody else want to get paid for your images?

It is hard to believe that people even have the balls to ask these kind of questions.... Because it exists must mean that someone is accepting the offer. This window licker needs to go kick rocks!

I hate to admit this, but I agree with Grant. This is not standard hotel pricing for them reproducing your work. It sounds to me like they are taking you for a ride.

This is an obvious scam. Thanks for letting us know its out there. I would never do anything like this without specifics, a detailed contract, and fair price for your work. I would also check out the companies legitimacy.

Man, where to begin....Fortunately (for me) I don't rely on my photography to put groceries on the table at this point but even if I did someone has a better chance of going up on the Romanian Space Shuttle than they have of getting a 20X30 of one of my images for $2.

It all comes back to the thing we all struggle with and that is the public's perception that since they can get a poster size print at any number of places for $10, why should they pay $200 for one. They can't grasp that they're not paying for the print itself but rather, the years of training and experience and honing of talents that it took to create the image. They're not buying my print, they're buying my knowledge.

With that in mind and me being me, I'd probably reply to the guy with an equally perposterous offer. More likely, I'd probably go with something more like Grant's response.

This would be my response:

"Sorry but your price is way off. I am in the professional photography business and use a 4x5 camera that produces incredible quality images at 20x30. I do not give away my images for $2 each. If you want to get prints for $2 each, please find an amateur photographer who uses a 2MP point and shoot camera."

I'm with Grant on this one, with one minor change: If you want to get prints for $2 each, please find an amateur photographer to take advantage of.

Ditto that, Adam!

I should mention: I have nothing against amateur photographers, I do have something against d-bags that try to take advantage of them.

I disagree w/Grant in only one sense -- it isn't the format of the original image that determines its value, it's the intrinsic value of the artist's work. I don't really care if a photo is taken with a large-format rig or a pinhole camera. The ability to enlarge to 20x30 is just logistics, but has little, if anything, to do with the value of the creation. It might limit the venues in which you can display your work, but that's about it.

Put another way, I don't think an image I took with my 5D is worth any less than one I take with my 5D Mk-II.

I honestly haven't read all the comments yet, but here's my input ...

The volume-based royalty percentages are definitely low - but most would probably be surprised to learn that they aren't that far away from industry standards (based on my own experiences over the last 4-5 years). At least for high-volume buyers. But, and a huge but, that's only considering percentages.

The key problem here: a $25 basis for 20x30 prints (whether it's inkjet or offset). Run away. For that type of price point, it's an insult to ask for 100 units. 10,000 minimum - I'd say - for the figures he's throwing out. They are obviously only making a profit on the ignorance of a certain pool of artists. I'm in line to punch this guy. And to slap around and wake up the artists he's talking down to.

I've also run into companies who think and work this way. They are obviously surviving only on the ignorance of artists ... or the occasional client who is OK with buying crap. It's really not too different than the "micro stock" crisis we've all been talking about in recent years. Fortunately, there are still plenty of legit buyers - mostly high-end consultants and designers - who do it the right way. Buyers who work like this 100% of the time are still the exception, thankfully.

I've talked to some of my clients about this very issue. They SOMETIMES use this model to stay competitive ... and they also know that the work is likely going to be crap. Like I said, hotels buy crap. We've all stayed there, right?

I only work with buyers who use MY own print pricing as a basis. Everyone else should too. Saying NO at times is well worth it in the long run.

If I were you, I'd do {PHOTOGRAPHER NAME REMOVED} a courtesy by sending him an email and telling him he's getting ripped off. He may not know any better. And that would put this buyer in his place. And, help us all really.

Cost of getting up at 3AM for that perfect sunrise.... $5.00
Cost of fuel at $3.00 per gallon .... $15.00
Cost to do the whole thing over because it rained....$200.00

The satisfaction you will have when you get to reject his offer....PRICELESS!!

I agree with you, Todd. I didn't mean to imply that 4x5 images are necessarily more valuable than digital images or even 35mm images. I was just parodying this guy's message because he was trying to make his credentials seem impressive so that it would appear he knows what he's talking about and Brent does not. If it were me, I'd just throw credentials back in his face. Also, like Adam, I wasn't trying to marginalize "amateur" photographers, who are often more talented than "professionals."

The royalties aren't too far off from industry standards, which generally range from 5-15%, but I would not negotiate a contract for a relatively small number of fine art prints based on royalty percentages. I might use gallery percentages as a starting point, which generally give the artist 60%. And the statement that "A single print in the commercial design world might be $250 retail and the royalty would be closer to 10% or $25" is just absurd. Who pays royalties for a single print? Royalties are generally only for mass-produced items, where the publisher / printer is taking a financial risk by producing a very large number of items and hoping they will sell.

Hey Brent
I am coming late to this but like everybody else is saying this is a bad deal for you and a great example of how people are trying to take advantage of photographers. Just say NO. In the past two weeks I have had three people asking me to use my work for free or absolute peanuts. The normal excuse is "we have no budget". I always reply and ask them if they work for "free". Hold your ground for fair rates!

This has been a fasinating discussion. I'm a freelance photographer doing weddings, kids sports, and corporate gigs, but spend my free time working on my nature photography skills. Pricing and sales seem to be a "moving target' based on the level of whether the photographer is taking pictures as a vocation vs a avocation. Thanks for the insight.

Yup, good education for this small timer. Thanks guys!

A single 20x30 for $25???
Now that 10,000 number that Jesse mentioned - might be different story.

Not just no, but hell NO! I would tell this guy his offer isn't even worth a response. I'm thinking though that some of this reasoning comes from all those royalty free CD's that are out there....let him go there.