Are you doing any sharpening (besides capture) before the up-res? My usual method is to do all my sharpening after the file is sized for final output.
It's hard to judge on a screen, and printing a bunch of 100% crops with various methods is beyond my capabilities at the moment. I've been happy with my workflow so far, but, as always, I wonder if there's a more refined method for better results.
So, what's your workflow?
FWIW; we're talking 5D at 20x30 - 24x36
Posted by Rodney Ninow on April 22, 2010 at 5:55 PM
I do not up rez before sending to the lab.I send the largest jpeg file from my raws that I can make without upsizing. I do sharpen, but I let them handle the resizing as needed. If you are using a pro lab, they have a machine that costs several 100,000 dollars and the rip software that runs it is far better at upsizing that photoshop or genuine fractals can do.
There are a lot of people on both sides of this fence. This is what works for me. And trying to upload a file that has been resized to huge dimensions can take a while if you are on a slower connection, and then if you have a few files, even longer.
I always create an output file from a 'master file', and sharpen the output file.
Are you printing these at home/office? If so, You could size an image for output, and sharpen it. Next, adjust the view so that the PS rulers are scaled so that 1 inch there is a true 1 inch. Flatten the image and make a rectangular selection of a detailed portion of the image that will fit on a piece of letter-size paper. Copy the selection, paste it into a new PS document and then print it. This should tell you if your sharpening is where you want it.
If you send the files out for printing, contact the service and ascertain what they require and what they can/cannot do for you.
--P
Posted by Mel Ladewig on April 22, 2010 at 7:59 PM
Shoot bigger film.
But on the occasions when I have printed big from 35mm, I make a master file at the original size. Then I flatten, uprez to the print size and sharpen at the print size. If the printer requires a particular color space not the one used in the master, I'd do that after flatten and before sharpen.
Preston; Yeah, I'm just loathe to waste the absurdly expensive ink in a quest to satisfy curiosity.
Mel; No kidding! I'm actually dying to try my hand at some MF and 4x5. So far it's just not in the budget.. deals are scarce these days.
For clarification, WCI is doing my printing. I've done many large prints with them (and others) - everything has been sized and sharpened by me, so I'm not a stranger to print sharpening.
I guess a more specific approach to my question is this; in the process of sharpening a 12~mp image for large (ie 20x30 or bigger) prints, are there any special steps anyone takes to improve the output beyond your various print sharpening methods at final size?
OK, you said WCI is doing your prints, so you can't easily do a sharpness check. Being able to check stuff like this is one of the great things about doing your own printing. I do what Preston said. I sharpen after uprezzing. Then I just crop out a section of the image that I think will show the sharpening effects the best and copy it to a new file. In fact, if I'm working on several images, I'll essentially make a contact sheet with 3 or 4 of these partial images on it. I generally print this on my regular print media, so I get a check of sharpness, color, and overall look.
Regarding you question of doing anything special to uprez a 12 MB image, it depends on the image, and I don't always do the same thing. Sometimes, after I get done, I'll look at it, and it looks horrible, and I just start over. For me, how I handle the RAW conversion can sometimes make a big difference in how it will uprez. I'm still doing a lot of figuring out things with CS4,though I gotta admit, I'm also going back and re-doing images from several years ago, and they're coming out better. Every image is different....
Posted by Dan Borzynski on April 22, 2010 at 10:56 PM
For my personal prints, upsize then sharpen. As a general rule of thumb, sharpening should be the last thing you do before hitting print. The only time I've sent a file out was to another photographer who had a larger printer my 4000 couldn't handle and he knew that whatever I sent was ready go without any input from him.
I totally understand about the ink; I just received $200 worth for my R2400! Ouch!
Give WCI a call and ask them to send you a proof so that you can gauge sharpness {primarily) along with color. It will cost you an extra amount ($10, I believe) but it would be money well spent. Proofs are always a good idea.
I've had work done by WCI, and have had nothing but great experiences with them. I am sure they will help you out,
If you're looking at 4x5, hop over to the Large Format forum, become a member, and start asking questions. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php. There is a 'For Sale/Wanted forum there, and good stuff is always being sold. You have to be a member for a while, before you access that forum, (to prevent spammers) but it's worth the wait. Mel, Lon, Harley, myself, and several other NPNers are also members there. It's a great resource!
--P
Posted by Mel Ladewig on April 23, 2010 at 11:09 AM
OK, so being more specific about the sharpening step. If you're using WCI, my first recommendation would be to call them. Alot of the time, especially if they're using a high end RA-4 printer like a lambda, chromira, etc... they'll have a RIP for uprez and sharpening which should outperform the general purpose algorithms in photoshop.
If I didn't know what the lab would do, to be on the safe side I do my own sharpening. I would assume that they're printing at 300ppi and uprez shooting for that. From digital smart sharpen does a really good job at or below the native resolution of the camera. Above that point, I think USM can still show some advantages when applied in multiple passes. I've done a couple 20X30 prints from my Rebel XT and if I remember correctly I applied the sharpening as 150,0.4,0 - 75,0.7,0 - 40,1,1. But each image is a little different at this level and you might need to try different combinations. Look at before and after at each pass and make certain you're not causing artifacts that will make an image look worse.
Discussion
9 repliesIt's hard to judge on a screen, and printing a bunch of 100% crops with various methods is beyond my capabilities at the moment. I've been happy with my workflow so far, but, as always, I wonder if there's a more refined method for better results.
So, what's your workflow?
FWIW; we're talking 5D at 20x30 - 24x36
There are a lot of people on both sides of this fence. This is what works for me. And trying to upload a file that has been resized to huge dimensions can take a while if you are on a slower connection, and then if you have a few files, even longer.
I always create an output file from a 'master file', and sharpen the output file.
Are you printing these at home/office? If so, You could size an image for output, and sharpen it. Next, adjust the view so that the PS rulers are scaled so that 1 inch there is a true 1 inch. Flatten the image and make a rectangular selection of a detailed portion of the image that will fit on a piece of letter-size paper. Copy the selection, paste it into a new PS document and then print it. This should tell you if your sharpening is where you want it.
If you send the files out for printing, contact the service and ascertain what they require and what they can/cannot do for you.
--P
But on the occasions when I have printed big from 35mm, I make a master file at the original size. Then I flatten, uprez to the print size and sharpen at the print size. If the printer requires a particular color space not the one used in the master, I'd do that after flatten and before sharpen.
Mel-
Preston; Yeah, I'm just loathe to waste the absurdly expensive ink in a quest to satisfy curiosity.
Mel; No kidding! I'm actually dying to try my hand at some MF and 4x5. So far it's just not in the budget.. deals are scarce these days.
For clarification, WCI is doing my printing. I've done many large prints with them (and others) - everything has been sized and sharpened by me, so I'm not a stranger to print sharpening.
I guess a more specific approach to my question is this; in the process of sharpening a 12~mp image for large (ie 20x30 or bigger) prints, are there any special steps anyone takes to improve the output beyond your various print sharpening methods at final size?
Regarding you question of doing anything special to uprez a 12 MB image, it depends on the image, and I don't always do the same thing. Sometimes, after I get done, I'll look at it, and it looks horrible, and I just start over. For me, how I handle the RAW conversion can sometimes make a big difference in how it will uprez. I'm still doing a lot of figuring out things with CS4,though I gotta admit, I'm also going back and re-doing images from several years ago, and they're coming out better. Every image is different....
For an outside lab, talk to the lab.
I totally understand about the ink; I just received $200 worth for my R2400! Ouch!
Give WCI a call and ask them to send you a proof so that you can gauge sharpness {primarily) along with color. It will cost you an extra amount ($10, I believe) but it would be money well spent. Proofs are always a good idea.
I've had work done by WCI, and have had nothing but great experiences with them. I am sure they will help you out,
If you're looking at 4x5, hop over to the Large Format forum, become a member, and start asking questions. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php. There is a 'For Sale/Wanted forum there, and good stuff is always being sold. You have to be a member for a while, before you access that forum, (to prevent spammers) but it's worth the wait. Mel, Lon, Harley, myself, and several other NPNers are also members there. It's a great resource!
--P
If I didn't know what the lab would do, to be on the safe side I do my own sharpening. I would assume that they're printing at 300ppi and uprez shooting for that. From digital smart sharpen does a really good job at or below the native resolution of the camera. Above that point, I think USM can still show some advantages when applied in multiple passes. I've done a couple 20X30 prints from my Rebel XT and if I remember correctly I applied the sharpening as 150,0.4,0 - 75,0.7,0 - 40,1,1. But each image is a little different at this level and you might need to try different combinations. Look at before and after at each pass and make certain you're not causing artifacts that will make an image look worse.