Posted by Pam Colander on April 29, 2010 at 7:21 PM
I have always wanted to take a landscape workshop but always find them to be cost prohibitive for me. My questions are: With fickle weather a factor, do you try and schedule them during historically "safe" times? Does it hinge on that or when YOU are free to conduct them? What do you do if the conditions hand you lemons? If every planned session is a bust, are participants upset? What do you base your fees on besides your time and expertise? Please include any other important factors that come up during a workshop. Thanks in advance guys
Posted by Grant Collier on April 29, 2010 at 8:36 PM
I haven't done workshops for a while, but when I did, I never scheduled them based on what the weather might be like. I usually scheduled them on three-day weekends when more people were likely to sign up. Or I scheduled them on a weekend when wildflowers or fall colors were likely to be at peak. I've been lucky and have never had a shoot completely rained out. If that had happened, I would have scheduled more indoor classroom instruction. But in Colorado and Utah, it might rain some during the day, but usually won't rain hard the entire day like it might in the Pacific Northwest.
I just based my fees on demand...started quite low and then raised my rates as more people signed up for the workshops and I learned enough about digital imaging to teach that as well.
Posted by Todd Caudle on April 29, 2010 at 9:12 PM
I base mine on how good-looking the participants are. Pam, I'm free anytime.
None of the factors you list even come close to my primary consideration when deciding on which workshop to take. The primary question I ask myself is, "Does the instructor know how to teach others to take good pictures?"
There are many instructors who take great photographs but far fewer can actually make you a better photographer over a long weekend. Besides, if the instructor can teach, then the weather doesn't really matter. You may not get the classic shot from that location, but you're likely to come away from the workshop a much better photographer.
Additionally, since your questions are primarily weather-related, a good workshop leader will always, always, always have a backup plan.
I have taken workshops from a variety of instructors and served as the photographer's assistant on others and I can state without equivocation that the best photography instructor I know is Tony Sweet. Before those here who know me start exposing my bias, I must disclose that in addition to being a great instructor, Tony is also a good friend. This does not make his workshops any less effective. Go to his site (and the sites of anyone else whose workshops you are considering) and look at the quality of photographs the students have posted in addition to the personal recommendations. If a workshop leader doesn't display really nice student images, I generally wouldn't bother.
If you would like to discuss choosing a workshop in greater detail, please feel free to send me an email.
I typically schedule workshops at times that are likely to present good conditions, whether it be wildflowers in the spring, monsoon clouds in summer, colorful trees in autumn or snow/red rock combos in the winter. I've had bouts with bad weather and really, my workshop participants have always been very understanding of the fact that I can't control the weather.
Having said that, I'm a big believer that there is no such thing as bad light. There are images to be made in all but a complete downpour and I use the bad weather as an opportunity to teach participants to use the conditions they are given to their advantage.
With regard to pricing, I tend to offer workshops at a price a little bit lower than the average going rate. I subscribe to the "under promise and over deliver" theory. The workshop business is a business and it must generate revenue. When setting prices I take a look at other similar workshops, then do my own cost analysis and set a fee that will result in a profitable endeavor without raping anyone. I've been told that my $300/day guiding fee is too low by several other photographers who offer guided photo tours but based upon my cost structure, it works. And, I don't believe in charging more just because I can get it.
I hope that helps. I'm also happy to answer any additional questions you may have here or privately via email. I'm also happy to recommend some workshops taught by photographers who I know deliver a very high quality learning experience.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on April 30, 2010 at 1:17 AM
Pam, there are many different types of photo "workshops" being offered. Make sure the objectives match your goals.
I have a friend who paid $$$$$ for a Galapagos trip with a very well known photographer. She, and apparently most others on the trip, expected a lot of personal instruction. They were sorely disappointed to find out that the leader considered this a "tour" where he took them to selected locations and then did his own thing. The leader is a very good teacher. This just wasn't one of his instructional trips. Obviously he didn't communicate that in the workshop description, or the participants didn't understand the difference.
So, I highly recommend asking lots of questions to make certain the instructor's style and objectives match your needs.
Todd says he's free--id take him up on his offer, you cant get any cheaper than free.
Posted by Fred Stearns on April 30, 2010 at 10:21 PM
Weather? Lets just say that last June, my wife and I went on a Photo Tour of Grand Tetons and Yellowstone. It was a ten day tour and during that time we had no sunrises, no sunsets, and did not even see a whole mountain in the Grand Tetons. It rained the whole time. We still had a wonderful time and made many good pictures. There were animals, fog, pocket landscapes and various other shooting opportunities. As has been said, the leaders ability to change directions is key. Whether it is to another spot or a return to the motel for some impromptu instruction and/or discussion.
The choice of instructor is key. As was said above, don't take the description as workshop or tour at face value, ask. The last workshop I went on, what I really wanted a tour. What we got was a poorly lead tour, if you could call it that. No one was very happy about what we paid good money for, but we did get to some great places I had not been to before.
Valuable comments so far. There are many aspects to photo workshops. For one thing, the difference between workshop vs tour, instructional vs non-instructional, tour leader qualification and experience, etc. Most of the best workshops are indeed rather pricey. You need to think through your objectives in taking the workshop. Are you there to learn new techniques and "get to the next level" or do you merely need to be guided to the right places at the right times? Sometimes the right times are during poor weather. Some of my most dramatic shots were taken during breaking storms. Several years ago, I took a week-long workshop in Jackson. One day, it snowed all morning, but I got great shots! I had to keep sweeping the snow accumulation off the camera... :-)
The best instructioinal workshops are ones that challenge you to reach well beyond your comfort zone. Several years ago, I took a workshop through Rich Clarkson Assoc. The workshop staff included the likes of the Editor in Chief of the National Geographic, the photo editor of Time Magazine, the editor of American Photo, Tom Mangelson, new York photographer, Jay Maisel, and it went on and on. We were shooting at dawn to 9 AM, then processing/editing our take by 10 AM in time for a group critique. The staff pulled no punches during the critique. The first day was as awful as you might imagine, but we improved dramatically day by day. The afternoons were spent in lecture. The evenings were spent listening to each staff member give personal presentations. We did this for six straight days - we were tired! They ended up printing/framing the best from the group that week, which then was hung in the national wildlife museum. The workshop ended with a fancy dinner and gallery opening with wine and cheese. Yes, this was expensive. However, what I learned that week took me to "the next level" as they say.
I can't afford to hire a staff like that for my own tours, but I do try to emulate the best points learned during that, and other workshops taken. I do take clients to the iconic locations, because that's what they want, however, I also try hard to assess where they are in their photographic journey and do my best to add value beyond their expectations. I encourage them to try new techniques and I challenge them to be creative, work all the angles and surprise me! We also hold critique session in the evenings, along with additional instruction. My goal is to have them walk away a better, more skilled, photographer. Yes, I photograph a bit while guiding clients, however, my first priority is to instruct and get them to the right places at the right times. It was mentioned earlier that good leaders need a plan B. I agree...even a plan C and D. Yes, weather can be a factor, but I'm careful to set client expectations ahead of time. Most understand the weather can affect plans, but it can also make great pictures as I mentioned. As a leader, you also need to be flexible in your itinerary. It's a big responsibility.
Well, here I am rambling. I try to take at least one major workshop per year in order to continue my own learning and skill set. I've taken a sports photography workshop here in the Springs (same company) and I'll be learning video/multimedia production the end of May (one of this years goals). National Geographic also puts on great workshops on travel photography and magazine photography/writing - both past goals. They're all very expensive, but worth it in my view. I wouldn't let the price of workshops dictate your decision to participate, or not. The better ones will be costly. Of more importance are the qualification of the leaders/staff and the objectives of the workshop and whether those objectives meet your needs.
Discussion
9 repliesI just based my fees on demand...started quite low and then raised my rates as more people signed up for the workshops and I learned enough about digital imaging to teach that as well.
None of the factors you list even come close to my primary consideration when deciding on which workshop to take. The primary question I ask myself is, "Does the instructor know how to teach others to take good pictures?"
There are many instructors who take great photographs but far fewer can actually make you a better photographer over a long weekend. Besides, if the instructor can teach, then the weather doesn't really matter. You may not get the classic shot from that location, but you're likely to come away from the workshop a much better photographer.
Additionally, since your questions are primarily weather-related, a good workshop leader will always, always, always have a backup plan.
I have taken workshops from a variety of instructors and served as the photographer's assistant on others and I can state without equivocation that the best photography instructor I know is Tony Sweet. Before those here who know me start exposing my bias, I must disclose that in addition to being a great instructor, Tony is also a good friend. This does not make his workshops any less effective. Go to his site (and the sites of anyone else whose workshops you are considering) and look at the quality of photographs the students have posted in addition to the personal recommendations. If a workshop leader doesn't display really nice student images, I generally wouldn't bother.
If you would like to discuss choosing a workshop in greater detail, please feel free to send me an email.
Having said that, I'm a big believer that there is no such thing as bad light. There are images to be made in all but a complete downpour and I use the bad weather as an opportunity to teach participants to use the conditions they are given to their advantage.
With regard to pricing, I tend to offer workshops at a price a little bit lower than the average going rate. I subscribe to the "under promise and over deliver" theory. The workshop business is a business and it must generate revenue. When setting prices I take a look at other similar workshops, then do my own cost analysis and set a fee that will result in a profitable endeavor without raping anyone. I've been told that my $300/day guiding fee is too low by several other photographers who offer guided photo tours but based upon my cost structure, it works. And, I don't believe in charging more just because I can get it.
I hope that helps. I'm also happy to answer any additional questions you may have here or privately via email. I'm also happy to recommend some workshops taught by photographers who I know deliver a very high quality learning experience.
I have a friend who paid $$$$$ for a Galapagos trip with a very well known photographer. She, and apparently most others on the trip, expected a lot of personal instruction. They were sorely disappointed to find out that the leader considered this a "tour" where he took them to selected locations and then did his own thing. The leader is a very good teacher. This just wasn't one of his instructional trips. Obviously he didn't communicate that in the workshop description, or the participants didn't understand the difference.
So, I highly recommend asking lots of questions to make certain the instructor's style and objectives match your needs.
The choice of instructor is key. As was said above, don't take the description as workshop or tour at face value, ask. The last workshop I went on, what I really wanted a tour. What we got was a poorly lead tour, if you could call it that. No one was very happy about what we paid good money for, but we did get to some great places I had not been to before.
The best instructioinal workshops are ones that challenge you to reach well beyond your comfort zone. Several years ago, I took a workshop through Rich Clarkson Assoc. The workshop staff included the likes of the Editor in Chief of the National Geographic, the photo editor of Time Magazine, the editor of American Photo, Tom Mangelson, new York photographer, Jay Maisel, and it went on and on. We were shooting at dawn to 9 AM, then processing/editing our take by 10 AM in time for a group critique. The staff pulled no punches during the critique. The first day was as awful as you might imagine, but we improved dramatically day by day. The afternoons were spent in lecture. The evenings were spent listening to each staff member give personal presentations. We did this for six straight days - we were tired! They ended up printing/framing the best from the group that week, which then was hung in the national wildlife museum. The workshop ended with a fancy dinner and gallery opening with wine and cheese. Yes, this was expensive. However, what I learned that week took me to "the next level" as they say.
I can't afford to hire a staff like that for my own tours, but I do try to emulate the best points learned during that, and other workshops taken. I do take clients to the iconic locations, because that's what they want, however, I also try hard to assess where they are in their photographic journey and do my best to add value beyond their expectations. I encourage them to try new techniques and I challenge them to be creative, work all the angles and surprise me! We also hold critique session in the evenings, along with additional instruction. My goal is to have them walk away a better, more skilled, photographer. Yes, I photograph a bit while guiding clients, however, my first priority is to instruct and get them to the right places at the right times. It was mentioned earlier that good leaders need a plan B. I agree...even a plan C and D. Yes, weather can be a factor, but I'm careful to set client expectations ahead of time. Most understand the weather can affect plans, but it can also make great pictures as I mentioned. As a leader, you also need to be flexible in your itinerary. It's a big responsibility.
Well, here I am rambling. I try to take at least one major workshop per year in order to continue my own learning and skill set. I've taken a sports photography workshop here in the Springs (same company) and I'll be learning video/multimedia production the end of May (one of this years goals). National Geographic also puts on great workshops on travel photography and magazine photography/writing - both past goals. They're all very expensive, but worth it in my view. I wouldn't let the price of workshops dictate your decision to participate, or not. The better ones will be costly. Of more importance are the qualification of the leaders/staff and the objectives of the workshop and whether those objectives meet your needs.
Cheers, Ken