I've been testing out some Moab papers lately, and I was noticing a definite yellow cast in the Entrada vs. the Kokopelli Satin and Semi-gloss. I also noticed a similiar yellow cast in the Kayenta, but perhaps a bit less than the Entrada.
My question - Is this a known trait of the Entrada and Kayenta, or am I doing something weird? I changed from Matte Black to Photo Black ink for the paper change and also changed paper profiles, etc. so that everything was running in the proper mode for whatever paper I was printing on, so that shouldn't be an issue.
2nd question - If this is a common trait of Entrada, will a custom profile solve the issue? I really like the Entrada paper the best, but obviously don't want the color cast.
Oh yeah, printing on a Epson R2400 if that makes a difference.
I found that Entrada takes a while to get "right" without a custom profile. I apply Moab's profile, and then I usually need a couple of test prints before I get things to look the way I expect them to.
My most common issue is that using the Moab profile the prints lack saturation and deep blacks so I normally apply a curve that enhances the dark tones a bit.
I have not encountered yellow casts but if it's really slight then I would chalk it up to the use of a generic profile. From here you can either get a custom one made or do some trial and error to come up with a correcting action.
Keep in mind that even with a custom profile images will not look exactly like your monitor due to the difference in mediums (transmissive vs. reflective).
Another thing just occured to me - what color temperature are you using for your monitor? Assuming it is calibrated you may want to experiment with calibrating at 5500K and 6500K to see what effect it would have.
And yet another thing - what light source are you using to view the prints? I find that Entrada looks very good under most light sources except for fluorescent and one specific type of Philips bulb which produce metamerism.
Thanks Guy. I've noticed several online paper retailers that offer custom profiles. Is there one that you can recommend? I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that there are good custom profiles and bad custom profiles depending on the expertise and care of the individual making it; or is this something that is just machine calibrated and requires no human input?
Bill, Dry Creek and Cathy's Profiles are two I've heard good things about.
One other thing to try - if you read the Moab documentation they say the profiles are meant to be used with an intent of Saturation or Perceptual (I think). Try to give both a try and see if it resolves the issue.
Guy
Posted by Bill Chambers on March 8, 2006 at 10:02 AM
Jim - you're right - I should have specified which paper I was using. I was printing on the bright white Entrada. I do plan on using both however - bright for color, and natural for BW.
Guy - thanks - I will look those profiles up on the web. Moab suggests using Perceptual setting, which I was using.
Bill: I can't offer anything regarding the Moab papers, but with respect to custom profiles:
Dry Creek has been getting heat due to slow response time, lack of communication, etc. You might want to search them on photo.net and see what people are saying. I've tested Cathy's, and while her profile was good, it didn't outperform the canned profile I put it up against. I'd recommend Chromix. A top notch profiling service with excellent documentation and support. Not the cheapest, but you know what they say
The quality of a profile is based on the hardware used to make it, operator input, and the number of patches in the profiling target. More patches usually means greater accuracy in the profile, but this is of course operator dependent.
Bill: in case you're still watching this thread, here's a report I pulled from one of the Yahoo forums I subscribe to:
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:12:12 -0000
From: "ruexp222" <ruexp2@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Dry Creek Photo - An Update
Thanks for the warning. Looks like that crick is all dried up.
P. Hayes
======================
A couple weeks ago in response to a question about profiles I posted a
message outlining my experience with Dry Creek Photo - basically they
cashed my check and have neither sent me a profile nor responded to
any of my email messages, pages, or letters sent over a period of a
couple months last summer. Two people responded here, saying they had
favorable experiences with Dry Creek Photo. So being encouraged by
that I sent yet another email message asking that they contact me.
I've heard nothing in response to that message which was sent about a
week ago. I called information in Hillsboro, Oregon to get their phone
number and the operator had no listing for them. I'd write a letter
but I'm tired of beating this dead horse. I'd still recommend that
they be avoided unless you don't mind paying $50 and receiving no
profile and no refund.
Posted by Bill Chambers on March 13, 2006 at 2:09 PM
Thanks Michael.
Here's what I've decided to do (at least for the moment). I uploaded an image to West Coast Imaging the other day, using their "pre-flight" service. Basically they print what I sent them "as-is". I ordered an 8x10 on three different papers. They don't use Entrada so I wanted a variety in order to compare.
What I hope to gain from this is to see if my problem of printing darker than my monitor shows it to be is a printer profile problem or a monitor problem. I don't know if this is the proper way of diagnosing this issue but we'll see what happens.
If it's a printer issue I will try one Chromix profile for the Entrada Bright and see what kind of difference that makes. If it's a monitor issue I don't know what I'll do yet - haven't thought that far in adavnce. I'm using Colorvision Colorplus monitor calibration so I guess I would start by talking to them.
Discussion
8 repliesMy question - Is this a known trait of the Entrada and Kayenta, or am I doing something weird? I changed from Matte Black to Photo Black ink for the paper change and also changed paper profiles, etc. so that everything was running in the proper mode for whatever paper I was printing on, so that shouldn't be an issue.
2nd question - If this is a common trait of Entrada, will a custom profile solve the issue? I really like the Entrada paper the best, but obviously don't want the color cast.
Oh yeah, printing on a Epson R2400 if that makes a difference.
Thanks in advance.
I found that Entrada takes a while to get "right" without a custom profile. I apply Moab's profile, and then I usually need a couple of test prints before I get things to look the way I expect them to.
My most common issue is that using the Moab profile the prints lack saturation and deep blacks so I normally apply a curve that enhances the dark tones a bit.
I have not encountered yellow casts but if it's really slight then I would chalk it up to the use of a generic profile. From here you can either get a custom one made or do some trial and error to come up with a correcting action.
Keep in mind that even with a custom profile images will not look exactly like your monitor due to the difference in mediums (transmissive vs. reflective).
Another thing just occured to me - what color temperature are you using for your monitor? Assuming it is calibrated you may want to experiment with calibrating at 5500K and 6500K to see what effect it would have.
And yet another thing
Guy
One other thing to try - if you read the Moab documentation they say the profiles are meant to be used with an intent of Saturation or Perceptual (I think). Try to give both a try and see if it resolves the issue.
Guy
Guy - thanks - I will look those profiles up on the web. Moab suggests using Perceptual setting, which I was using.
Thanks for the help.
Dry Creek has been getting heat due to slow response time, lack of communication, etc. You might want to search them on photo.net and see what people are saying. I've tested Cathy's, and while her profile was good, it didn't outperform the canned profile I put it up against. I'd recommend Chromix. A top notch profiling service with excellent documentation and support. Not the cheapest, but you know what they say
The quality of a profile is based on the hardware used to make it, operator input, and the number of patches in the profiling target. More patches usually means greater accuracy in the profile, but this is of course operator dependent.
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:12:12 -0000
From: "ruexp222" <ruexp2@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Dry Creek Photo - An Update
Thanks for the warning. Looks like that crick is all dried up.
P. Hayes
======================
A couple weeks ago in response to a question about profiles I posted a
message outlining my experience with Dry Creek Photo - basically they
cashed my check and have neither sent me a profile nor responded to
any of my email messages, pages, or letters sent over a period of a
couple months last summer. Two people responded here, saying they had
favorable experiences with Dry Creek Photo. So being encouraged by
that I sent yet another email message asking that they contact me.
I've heard nothing in response to that message which was sent about a
week ago. I called information in Hillsboro, Oregon to get their phone
number and the operator had no listing for them. I'd write a letter
but I'm tired of beating this dead horse. I'd still recommend that
they be avoided unless you don't mind paying $50 and receiving no
profile and no refund.
Here's what I've decided to do (at least for the moment). I uploaded an image to West Coast Imaging the other day, using their "pre-flight" service. Basically they print what I sent them "as-is". I ordered an 8x10 on three different papers. They don't use Entrada so I wanted a variety in order to compare.
What I hope to gain from this is to see if my problem of printing darker than my monitor shows it to be is a printer profile problem or a monitor problem. I don't know if this is the proper way of diagnosing this issue but we'll see what happens.
If it's a printer issue I will try one Chromix profile for the Entrada Bright and see what kind of difference that makes. If it's a monitor issue I don't know what I'll do yet - haven't thought that far in adavnce. I'm using Colorvision Colorplus monitor calibration so I guess I would start by talking to them.
Thanks for your input.