Oh my, maybe someone has already posted this, but I picked up a brochure at the Moab Photo Symposium from ProPhotoSpots.com which "was created to provide the travel enthusiast a map to the world's most renowned locations." For a mere $1 you too have the gps coordinates and a map with directions to False Kiva, for instance. Check it out - http://www.prophotospots.com/Canyonlands-National-Park-Photo-Locations-Prodview.html. But, hey, it's the American way, right?
By the way, our fellow NPN'er Nat Coalson was a star at the just completed symposium---you should have seen the crowd around him after his presentation on digital workflow.
It kind of bothers me that someone would profit from providing directions to a class 2 site. I've been there and all you have to do is ask the rangers and you can get the directions free! This will just open this area up for overuse and possible abuse of a really pristine site. Not only that but if you go by the coordinates, it will put you 500' over the top of the site.
Good grief, I thought the NPS was trying to discourage people from visiting this site, at least this was a few years back. Of course, equality for all is the American Way, so who knows now. They even chained off an area to the left of the kiva to mitigate traffic in an area where they believe an disposal site is (anyone know more about this?).
I suppose it would be a good time to visit the False Kiva sooner than later. Same goes for many spots on the Plateau.
If you read Tony L's reply to Rod's other post, it supports what I was saying about possible destruction or vandalism. Hopefully it won't happen here too! I wonder if National Parks can intervene with this type of commercial posting.
I had the "pleasure" of meeting the "brains" behind this ProPhotoSpots.com website in Arches NP for a sunrise shoot around the windows area. Apparently he is from Pennsylvania and is doing a 6 month tour through the southwest/west coast trying to drum up support for his business as well as "bag" as many spots as possible. He was extremely arrogant in our interaction and was bigheaded and egotistical, claiming to have a local's knowledge of these spots (did I mention he was from PA) and even trying to recommend the ideal time of day (most of it wrong) for shooting these locations. Needless to say I was not at all impressed and the thing that was most unsettling to me, was he did not seem to have the reverence for these locations from a conservation/preservation standpoint. It seemed to me that he was just trying to bag his iconic shot, exploit it, and move on. Being a newer member to this forum/photography in general, I admittedly tend to have pretty ambitious goals when I go on trips etc., but not to the point where you lose the meaning and significance of being in these wonderful locations. Let's face it, icons are icons and I'm sure the Maroon Bells were once a "secret" spot, and though countless people have shot these icons, somebody who simply arrives to bag an icon will usually have no feeling conveyed in their photo, and it's this "feeling" that makes even an icon that you've seen 1000+ times still evoke a positive emotion from a viewer. Enough of my 2 cents.
A few questions I have are: How is what Martres and others have done (selling books which describe in detail how to get to these same locations) any different from what this guy is doing? I think a lot of people on this forum highly recommend his books (I use them too) and seem OK with what he has published. Martres' books are "tastefully" done and seem to have a little more reverence and respect for these areas, but nonetheless, he is still capitalizing on giving info to lesser known locales, and each book that sells means those locations become less and less "secret."
Second: this forum is a wealth of knowledge, and how do we protect the info that is conveyed here? I think this is different because we "share" knowledge, feedback, info about many different places in this region as a diologue, but any photographer can pay his dues (or just lurk for free) and get access to MUCH of the info that is passed around here if they wanted. I feel it's OUR job (not the NPS or any other regulators) to protect our own special places and do our best to preserve them. Send unpublicized information via email to a requester (rather than forum posts), don't tag or label photos by specific location names (unless already well known), but also, don't be afraid to share these secrets with others who have a similar code of ethics who may help in protecting and preserving these sites should there be a day when we need to stand up and fight to protect these areas. Lastly, if there is "that place" that does is for you that no one else knows about, keep it that way...
It seemed to me that he was just trying to bag his iconic shot, exploit it, and move on.
Jared, I think you just described 90% of the photographers out there. Another photog once described it to me as trophy hunting.
It's a shame the guy doing this seemed to be an arrogant jerk without the kind of knowledge necessary to steer people to places at the best times, but I actually think this is a brilliant idea. It seems like this guy's m.o. is to direct people to spots that are already iconic just by virtue of having been photographed so many times. I understand the desire to not want to direct everybody and his brother to places like False Kiva, but doing so will probably not affect your enjoyment of the place that much. FK is a unique situation, as the NPS might step in to mitigate visitor damage to an archaeological resource, thus making it a tougher shooting environment, but most places, like Maroon Bells, give up their best photos through timing and/or luck rather than just showing up. When I look at my Maroon Bells photos, for instance, or the one posted on the forum over the weekend (sorry, I don't remember who posted it), intellectually I know that there were probably 75-100 other photographers standing right beside the tripod when the shot was taken, but knowing that doesn't alter the beauty of the shot one bit.
I have to admit that at one time I was definitely guilty of "trophy hunting", but I think that was mostly in the infancy of my knowledge of landscape photography. Now that I am in the toddler stage, I think I am making a concerted effort to try and find special places to make "my own". Imitation is a natural part of developing a style, and now that I have done that a bunch, hopefully I can develop my own style. To that end, I'm not sure that I mind this kind of thing either -- I'd rather not have a herd of people at archeological sites, though. Granted, there is no excuse for the guy to act like a jerk. I have just resigned myself to the fact that most of the iconic locations are going to be packed (like Delicate Arch, or the Bells) but as Todd said, the timing is often the deciding factor between a snapshot and a really nice image. I don't think I am completely done with icons, they are icons because they are beautiful, after all -- but I will continue to try and get away from those places as well. In this age of Google tough, there are few secrets left.....
I guess it's just hard see the places that you have grown to love being sold out at a cheap price or even worse, be the victim of thoughtless vandalism. I am still in my "toddler" stage as well, so I also have been drawn to shoot many icons. Icons are icons for a reason and do believe they are a constant for every budding photog, but as Todd says, timing is everything and the chances of "bagging" a unique and captivating image while on a trophy hunt are not very likely. It's great when you are lucky enough to get a "keeper" first time to a spot (and I'll admit it's great being able to research to a certain extent when and where to be), but it's also extremely rewarding to revisit a spot countless times and finally have that one time pay dividends and capture something truly unique, whether it's been shot 1000 times or not, a pretty picture is just that.
I understand what you are saying Jared. It wasn't all that long ago that I was in my infancy stage and wanting to get perfect images every time out. Not always so...I have yet to get what I can call a keeper from the Bells. Last year I went to false Kiva, spent hours trying to figure the way in and came away with nothing. This year I was blessed with what I feel is a pretty good image...I'll be posting it soon. The best part about getting it this year was spending 3 1/2 hours inside the kiva just looking out and enjoying the total peacefulness of the place..I could appreciate what the originators of the kiva went through and the conditions they faced. I enjoy repeat trips to a location cuz ya never know what your gonna find!
Discussion
8 repliesBy the way, our fellow NPN'er Nat Coalson was a star at the just completed symposium---you should have seen the crowd around him after his presentation on digital workflow.
I suppose it would be a good time to visit the False Kiva sooner than later. Same goes for many spots on the Plateau.
A few questions I have are: How is what Martres and others have done (selling books which describe in detail how to get to these same locations) any different from what this guy is doing? I think a lot of people on this forum highly recommend his books (I use them too) and seem OK with what he has published. Martres' books are "tastefully" done and seem to have a little more reverence and respect for these areas, but nonetheless, he is still capitalizing on giving info to lesser known locales, and each book that sells means those locations become less and less "secret."
Second: this forum is a wealth of knowledge, and how do we protect the info that is conveyed here? I think this is different because we "share" knowledge, feedback, info about many different places in this region as a diologue, but any photographer can pay his dues (or just lurk for free) and get access to MUCH of the info that is passed around here if they wanted. I feel it's OUR job (not the NPS or any other regulators) to protect our own special places and do our best to preserve them. Send unpublicized information via email to a requester (rather than forum posts), don't tag or label photos by specific location names (unless already well known), but also, don't be afraid to share these secrets with others who have a similar code of ethics who may help in protecting and preserving these sites should there be a day when we need to stand up and fight to protect these areas. Lastly, if there is "that place" that does is for you that no one else knows about, keep it that way...
Jared, I think you just described 90% of the photographers out there. Another photog once described it to me as trophy hunting.
It's a shame the guy doing this seemed to be an arrogant jerk without the kind of knowledge necessary to steer people to places at the best times, but I actually think this is a brilliant idea. It seems like this guy's m.o. is to direct people to spots that are already iconic just by virtue of having been photographed so many times. I understand the desire to not want to direct everybody and his brother to places like False Kiva, but doing so will probably not affect your enjoyment of the place that much. FK is a unique situation, as the NPS might step in to mitigate visitor damage to an archaeological resource, thus making it a tougher shooting environment, but most places, like Maroon Bells, give up their best photos through timing and/or luck rather than just showing up. When I look at my Maroon Bells photos, for instance, or the one posted on the forum over the weekend (sorry, I don't remember who posted it), intellectually I know that there were probably 75-100 other photographers standing right beside the tripod when the shot was taken, but knowing that doesn't alter the beauty of the shot one bit.