Hi everyone, I leave early Wednesday for a trip back to Badlands National Park, as well as Yellowstone National Park. Although my main focus is going to be wildlife, I'm borrowing my aunts Mamiya 645E for landscape work. This will be my first time using a medium format film camera and I've picked up 6 rolls of velvia 50 film. I'll be using a spot meter to find the correct exposure. I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or advice about this particular camera, or medium format photography in general. Thanks. Joe
Leave the camera at home and bring gear you know how to use and can use without thinking. Seriously - the last thing you want to be doing on a big trip is learning how to use new gear. If you have to bring it, anything that needs to be shot quickly or is critical to sucess for the trip, use your current gear and then switch to the MF once you know you have a shot.
I couldn't agree more with what Dan is saying. Learning how to use a spot meter to properly expose Velvia takes time as well and Velvia is very unforgiving when it comes to over- or under- exposure.
"If you have to bring it, anything that needs to be shot quickly or is critical to sucess for the trip, use your current gear and then switch to the MF once you know you have a shot. "
Properly used, this camera will produce excellent and extremely sharp results. However, it is not easy to handhold--a tripod is absolutely required in order realize the sharpness of the Mamiya glass. I have a 645E and have shot many hundreds of exposures with it, so I speak with some experience.
Thanks for your input everyone. I understand that using a camera for the first time while on a trip might not be the wisest choice, but I would be doing this purely as an experiment. My time shooting landscapes in the badlands is usually during off time from photographing bobcats, and is mostly a time when I experiment and try out new techniques. I tend to learn best when first using gear in the field, but with film I won't have the freedom of seeing my results right away. Also, I'll be using the D90 for most of my landscape work, and some experimenting with the mf, and by no means will I use the mf camera before the D90. I really just want to try out this different format of photography, and to learn as much as I can about this camera while in the field. I'm curious as to how velvia is tricky to learn with a spot meter, does the film tend to under or overexpose the image compared to what's read on the spot meter? Again, thanks for your feedback. Joe
I'm curious as to how velvia is tricky to learn with a spot meter, does the film tend to under or overexpose the image compared to what's read on the spot meter?
Have you used a spot meter (either handheld or in-camera TTL) for metering before? If not, that's something you need to learn how to do. Spot metering used to be a commonly used method for determining exposure in the pre-digital era, but it's something of a lost art today and the procedure is sufficiently nuanced that it's very difficult to thoroughly explain in this venue.
If you're familiar with spot metering technique you don't have to worry about any particular under/overexposure bias with Velvia. The problem with Velvia is that the exposure latitude is extremely narrow--four or five stops. As with all positive film, you should typically expose for the highlights. If you do so--and figure exposure correctly--you'll find shadows tend to block up pretty quickly but that's almost always preferable to blown highlights. Obviously the more contrasty the scene the more you'll have to deal with the limited dynamic range of the film.
Re: spot meter and Velvia: if you've never used a spot meter before then any mistakes in metering will be very apparent when using Velvia. If you are good at recognizing what a midtone is and are good at being able to accurately assign proper values to tones over and under those midtones then you'll be fine. It certainly took me awhile to be able to recognize what values I was seeing in the field (maybe I was just a slow learner) particularly when the light was changing rapidly..... and if you're off by as little as 1/2 stop you'll see that in your results with Velvia; much more so than with color negative film, for example.
But, once you get it down there is no better way to use a meter, IMO.
Joe, wrote: "I'm curious as to how velvia is tricky to learn with a spot meter, does the film tend to under or overexpose the image compared to what's read on the spot meter?"
Velveeta has a dynamic range of about 4 stops. My best results occur when I meter the high values in which I want detail and then open up 1-2/3 stops over the indicated exposure. If the exposure range of your scene is such that shadow areas where you want detail is greater than four stops less than your high value exposure, the shadows will block up. This is the nature of the beast. The tricky part is figuring out what areas of your scene need to have detail and then carefully metering to place your high value so that it does not overexpose.
If you possibly can, expose a roll of film as a test, and process it before you leave on your trip. Also, if you have access to ND grads and a holder, that will help tame a scene with a wide dynamic range.
The 645E has a mirror lockup. I encourage you to use it. Your images will be much sharper. Definitely load and unoad your film in subdued light. The 645E is a fine camera, and Mamiya glass is excellent. Have fun with it!
If you are going to use the camera during downtime, this may not be so great of a mess.
The concern that all three of us share, especially given your comment about Velvia's exposure metering, is in using an unfamilar system in unfamilar surroundinds. This is a recipe for missed shots, blown exposures, equipment issues, etc, no matter how good the system or photographer. MF doesn't have a P mode like 35 mm based, where you'll at least get something.
Velvia is about the touchiest film you could have picked to learn a MF system. There is no margin for error in exposure. In the real world on a good day, you have maybe 4-1/2 stops work with for exposure latitude. A decent DSLR has 7-8, even on a bad day. That is a huge difference. Once you learn exposure on Velvia, everything else makes you wonder what people are complaining about with digital exposure "errors" their cameras are making (hint - it is not the gear).
For metering, if the meter is working properly and you understand midtones and compensation, the film should exposure properly with the metered exposured, assuming that compensation is not needed. There are three reasons why compensation is needed: tonality of the scene, lens extension for closeup work and the meter not working properly. For the first, I am going to assume that you understand midtones and conpensated for dark or light exposures. The spot meter won't pick up on these so you'll need to keep that in mind when metering. For closeup work, just don't it for this trip with this camera. It is a lot to explain and take in and remember to do. Keep the focal point of the scenes at least 10 feet away. (It is not hard to deal with this issue, just more than I want to write),
The last one assumes that the meter is functioning properly. First thing - put a new, fresh battery in the meter. Take the meter and your digital camera/lenses outside and find a flat, more or less midtone object 30 - 50 feet away. Brick walls work well. Spot meter on the wall. While standing at the same spot, pick a lens that will give you an angle of view approximately the same as the one through your meter and note the exposure. They should be the same. Repeat on a number of locations and record the results and note if there are any patterns in the different exposures. If there are, that will be your compensation for the meter to get it back to neutral.
What you are doing is testing the meter to set if it exposes correctly or at least consistently. What you don't want to do is the test on something close, say 5 feet away. Once you start focussing close, you lose light that makes it back to the recording medium. Keeping the distance in the above test to 30-50 feet keeps the adjustment at 1/10 stop or less, not enough to worry about.
Run the MF camera through its paces. Check the shutters for speed. One second should sound like one second. 1/4 sec sounds faster, 1/300 second should be a "pop". Make sure everything fits together like it should, loading film can be readily done, nothing looks "wrong" with the camera. Do you have a plate for the camera for your ball head? Read the camera's manual (Yeah, they are boring reading!).
The original three of us who have responded (and Kerry as well) have shot long enough and with enough cameras/formats that we really do understand the fun of new gear but also the pitfalls of working with unfamilar systems. I think the common advice we can give is to make sure that if the shot is important, go with the gear that you know the best. If there is still time and opportunity, then break out the MF camera. Landscapes work well for this.
It is a great camera and system, but like anything else, it will take some time to learn.
In all honesty, I think you are making the right decision to use this camera. You'll learn a lot from its use and especially through shooting Velvia. I'm still hesitant about bringing it with you but if it is treated as an experiment at non-critical times, sure, why not?
Thanks so much for the quick replies everyone, my generation skipped film all together, so this information is invaluable to me. What it sounds like is that in order to have even a slight chance of success with this film, I'm going to need to shoot a practice role using the spot meter and get it developed before I go. I'm very familiar with the concept of spot metering, and its the only way I meter my wildlife images on my DSLR, so the concept of finding the mid tones or metering for shadows or highlights is something I have some experience with, but once I use an actual spot meter with a mf format everything will be different. I received the camera today, and I will try to shoot a practice role when I get home tomorrow, and perhaps I'll be able to get it developed before I leave. I think at least doing that could be a major help. I'm really excited to start using this camera, I think I have a lot to learn from using this format of photography, and having never really used film, it will be quite a different experience. Thanks so much for this info, without it I almost certainly wouldn't have a chance of success at all while using mf on this trip. I'll be sure to post any successful results when I get back next week. Thanks again, Joe
We were using pre-E Mamiya 645's in our business for many years and relied on one accessory that might be useful for your learning period: A Polaroid back, if in fact they're still available and compatible with your version. They only give you a film-sized image on the larger Polaroid frame, but it was invaluable to us for setting up complex lighting on locations and especially for product photography. No opportunity in your current time frame, but over the longer time that you will be learning it is something to put on your "think about later" list.
Hank, unfortunately, the 645E will not accept the Mamiya interchangeable backs. Even if it could, finding Polaroid film is like CERN looking for the Higgs boson; it will take a long time, and cost a bundle.
Joe: Since you already have a handle on the concept of spot metering, the transition to a handeld meter should not be too difficult for you. I use a Pentax Digital and have Pentax Spotmeter-V as a back up. They are wonderfully accurate, but read only in EV; you have to use the dial scales to determine exposure.from the EV numbers. But, hey, that's half the fun! Oh, be sure to shade the lens on the meter, because flare will fool it, just like it does in TTL meter.
Joe, I have used a Mamiya 6x7 with TTL for over 15 years now. About 6 years ago I bought a 4x5. I had no idea what I was doing with the 4x5 and spot metering. Although I was very aware of the V-50 anomalies. My first outing with the 4x5 I captured some very nice work. Make the best of the trip and enjoy yourself.
"Six rolls? If you're going through all that trouble I think I'd be bringing more like 60 rolls. "
May as well go for the gusto!
Seriously, Joe, you will likely be bracketing quite a bit, so take a bunch of film.
While I'm here, I suggest that you grab some Astia 100-F. It has a wider dynamic range than Velvia and a more neutral color palette. B&H has it in stock.
Thanks Preston, I forgot to mention that my aunt also gave me many roles of b+w film with the camera, but Im sure this film is several years old, and I don't know if that will affect the quality or not. I'll try to pick up some more film before I go as well.
I would recommend a different film to ensure your keeper rate is as high as possible. The biggest issue with this recommendation is that if you are new to scanning film, color negative is somewhat tricky to learn to scan, but its easy once you get accustomed to it. You can let the lab scan for you, but you may not like their results. A color negative film would give you dynamic range more in line with what you are used to using on your DSLR. Kodak's Ektar 100 has a dynamic range very close in line with what a DSLR will offer and an extremely fine grain. It is very saturated for color negative, but not very forgiving. Portra 160VC has quite a bit more latitude and dynamic range with saturated color, Portra 160NC gives a bit more latitude with less saturation and Portra 400NC gives the most dynamic range in Kodak's line. Fuji has just discontinued most of their professional color negative film, but Pro160S was their equivalent to Portra 160NC and Pro160C was roughly their equivalent to Portra 160VC. You should still be able to find both in 120/220. Fuji is continuing to produce Pro400H, but I don't think this would be a particularly well suited film for landscape work. I really like the color rendition of Fuji Reala, but I don't like the grain of this film for high resolution scans. If I were to pick one film from this bunch, it would be Portra 160VC.
With color negative, its reversed from shooting digital or slides. Here you need to use the meter to find the shadows you want to keep detail in, then work out the exposure from there. Usually, it will work best if you can place your exposure 2 stops above the shadows you wish to keep. I often shoot my Portra with the meter set for ISO100, just for the extra 2/3 stop of insurance.
Velvia is tricky film generally, and especially so with Velvia 50. Its relatively easy to shoot in shade or in the golden light, but in mid day, something like Tower Falls would be a real challenge. You'll fight with blocked up shadows and clipped highlights. Kodak's E100VS is nearly equal a challenge, but with a palette favoring warm tones, red, orange and yellow versus Velvia's strength in green and magenta. E100G and Provia are quite a bit easier to shoot while still keeping reasonable saturation. E100G produces the best sky blue of any slide film in my opinion. If you can find some 120 format E100GX, its my absolute favorite, but its been hard to find since Kodak discontinued it. I have 40 rolls of 35mm, but have not been able to get any 120 format yet. Its a little warmer than E100G, without affecting the blues and was considered to be the closest E-6 film to Kodakchrome. Yellow, red and orange absolutely pop on this film and the blue is the same jewel tone as E100G while the neutrals are slightly warm. Astia has just a tad more latitude, but you might find the colors muted for your tastes.
Alot of people recommend that you meter off the highlights for slide film and call it a day. I don't think this is an appropriate method of solving exposure problems though. You need to think about what you are trying to accomplish. Your meter is designed to meter a result of 18% gray. Often what I'll do with my Pentax digital is measure the highlights and shadows so I'm aware of their spread, but I'll often use a good reference for the middle gray. For instance a clear blue sky is often a good reference as is grass (often dry and green can both work). Often a tan rock will work as will skin (though I don't often have skin as a metering point in my landscapes). I take all these values in and determine whether a GND is needed or a filter of some other sort. You've got to think about the meter reading a bit. Your DSLR can act as a polaroid if you plug your exposure values in manual mode. Just be aware that ISO 100 on a DSLR does not necessarily mean ISO 100 and that the clipping markers may not line up with the latitude of your film.
One last thing I would highly recommend is that you make a little log of your exposures when you start. It will help you learn what works and what doesn't on your film. On digital it records all the exposure info, but film doesn't. Its either wrong or right and without the log, its difficult to know where in your exposure decision process the fault was introduced. In the log, I would record film, roll, frame, EV high, EV low, EV selected, description, focal length, time, aperture, filters. It takes only a second to record this info.
There is no reason be be intimidated by using a film camera. It works on the same concepts as your digital cameras and if you can create a competent digital image, you can have the same tools available when shooting film. Good luck to you.
Thanks for the info Mel, I would have never thought about making a log of my exposures, but it makes perfect sense, and I'm sure it will be incredibly helpful. I'm going to go through all of these comments again tomorrow on my 10 hour car ride. I can't thank everyone enough for the information and advice I've received, now I just can't wait to get out and start shooting.
You would have been ahead to shoot a couple of test rolls and had them developed to see if the shutter speeds are correct. If they aren't, the E6 film in particular could be very disappointing. I've been shooting a c. 1959 Brownie Hawkeye lately. I'm on my second roll. First roll was actually pretty close, exposure wise. I've been shooting B&W film since it has a lot of lee way. With 120 rolls, you want to load & unload the camera in the shade or even indoors. I would also put a piece of black tape over the red film window (if there is one) and keep it out of bright sunlight when winding the film. I would also suggest getting into the habit of immediately rewinding if the camera doesn't have some sort of multi-exposure block.
The camera's back is sealed; no counter window. Tha camera has an exposure counter. Also, multiple exposure is selectable via a small lever on the lower right side of the camera body, so unless Joe specifically sets it, the default is a single exposure per frame.
Your cautions about loading/unloading film in subdued light are well advised.
Joe: the camera has an adjustable diopter for the viewfinder. Be sure to adjust it for your eye before shooting.. Here's how to do it: Remove the lens from the camera and then aim the camera at a fairly bright light source. Adjust the diopter unitl the central spot microprism is tack sharp. Reinstall the lens, and you'll be good to go.
Used the Mamyia 645 for years, it was/is a great camera. The one thing I would add is to take your time. Don't shoot medium format like a 35mm film or digital. Good luck.
Discussion
21 replies"If you have to bring it, anything that needs to be shot quickly or is critical to sucess for the trip, use your current gear and then switch to the MF once you know you have a shot. "
Properly used, this camera will produce excellent and extremely sharp results. However, it is not easy to handhold--a tripod is absolutely required in order realize the sharpness of the Mamiya glass. I have a 645E and have shot many hundreds of exposures with it, so I speak with some experience.
Enjoy your trip!
--P
Have you used a spot meter (either handheld or in-camera TTL) for metering before? If not, that's something you need to learn how to do. Spot metering used to be a commonly used method for determining exposure in the pre-digital era, but it's something of a lost art today and the procedure is sufficiently nuanced that it's very difficult to thoroughly explain in this venue.
If you're familiar with spot metering technique you don't have to worry about any particular under/overexposure bias with Velvia. The problem with Velvia is that the exposure latitude is extremely narrow--four or five stops. As with all positive film, you should typically expose for the highlights. If you do so--and figure exposure correctly--you'll find shadows tend to block up pretty quickly but that's almost always preferable to blown highlights. Obviously the more contrasty the scene the more you'll have to deal with the limited dynamic range of the film.
But, once you get it down there is no better way to use a meter, IMO.
Have a great trip!
Velveeta has a dynamic range of about 4 stops. My best results occur when I meter the high values in which I want detail and then open up 1-2/3 stops over the indicated exposure. If the exposure range of your scene is such that shadow areas where you want detail is greater than four stops less than your high value exposure, the shadows will block up. This is the nature of the beast. The tricky part is figuring out what areas of your scene need to have detail and then carefully metering to place your high value so that it does not overexpose.
If you possibly can, expose a roll of film as a test, and process it before you leave on your trip. Also, if you have access to ND grads and a holder, that will help tame a scene with a wide dynamic range.
The 645E has a mirror lockup. I encourage you to use it. Your images will be much sharper. Definitely load and unoad your film in subdued light. The 645E is a fine camera, and Mamiya glass is excellent. Have fun with it!
--P
The concern that all three of us share, especially given your comment about Velvia's exposure metering, is in using an unfamilar system in unfamilar surroundinds. This is a recipe for missed shots, blown exposures, equipment issues, etc, no matter how good the system or photographer. MF doesn't have a P mode like 35 mm based, where you'll at least get something.
Velvia is about the touchiest film you could have picked to learn a MF system. There is no margin for error in exposure. In the real world on a good day, you have maybe 4-1/2 stops work with for exposure latitude. A decent DSLR has 7-8, even on a bad day. That is a huge difference. Once you learn exposure on Velvia, everything else makes you wonder what people are complaining about with digital exposure "errors" their cameras are making (hint - it is not the gear).
For metering, if the meter is working properly and you understand midtones and compensation, the film should exposure properly with the metered exposured, assuming that compensation is not needed. There are three reasons why compensation is needed: tonality of the scene, lens extension for closeup work and the meter not working properly. For the first, I am going to assume that you understand midtones and conpensated for dark or light exposures. The spot meter won't pick up on these so you'll need to keep that in mind when metering. For closeup work, just don't it for this trip with this camera. It is a lot to explain and take in and remember to do. Keep the focal point of the scenes at least 10 feet away. (It is not hard to deal with this issue, just more than I want to write),
The last one assumes that the meter is functioning properly. First thing - put a new, fresh battery in the meter. Take the meter and your digital camera/lenses outside and find a flat, more or less midtone object 30 - 50 feet away. Brick walls work well. Spot meter on the wall. While standing at the same spot, pick a lens that will give you an angle of view approximately the same as the one through your meter and note the exposure. They should be the same. Repeat on a number of locations and record the results and note if there are any patterns in the different exposures. If there are, that will be your compensation for the meter to get it back to neutral.
What you are doing is testing the meter to set if it exposes correctly or at least consistently. What you don't want to do is the test on something close, say 5 feet away. Once you start focussing close, you lose light that makes it back to the recording medium. Keeping the distance in the above test to 30-50 feet keeps the adjustment at 1/10 stop or less, not enough to worry about.
Run the MF camera through its paces. Check the shutters for speed. One second should sound like one second. 1/4 sec sounds faster, 1/300 second should be a "pop". Make sure everything fits together like it should, loading film can be readily done, nothing looks "wrong" with the camera. Do you have a plate for the camera for your ball head? Read the camera's manual (Yeah, they are boring reading!).
The original three of us who have responded (and Kerry as well) have shot long enough and with enough cameras/formats that we really do understand the fun of new gear but also the pitfalls of working with unfamilar systems. I think the common advice we can give is to make sure that if the shot is important, go with the gear that you know the best. If there is still time and opportunity, then break out the MF camera. Landscapes work well for this.
It is a great camera and system, but like anything else, it will take some time to learn.
In all honesty, I think you are making the right decision to use this camera. You'll learn a lot from its use and especially through shooting Velvia. I'm still hesitant about bringing it with you but if it is treated as an experiment at non-critical times, sure, why not?
Good luck and enjoy the trip.
Joe: Since you already have a handle on the concept of spot metering, the transition to a handeld meter should not be too difficult for you. I use a Pentax Digital and have Pentax Spotmeter-V as a back up. They are wonderfully accurate, but read only in EV; you have to use the dial scales to determine exposure.from the EV numbers. But, hey, that's half the fun! Oh, be sure to shade the lens on the meter, because flare will fool it, just like it does in TTL meter.
--P
May as well go for the gusto!
Seriously, Joe, you will likely be bracketing quite a bit, so take a bunch of film.
While I'm here, I suggest that you grab some Astia 100-F. It has a wider dynamic range than Velvia and a more neutral color palette. B&H has it in stock.
--P
With color negative, its reversed from shooting digital or slides. Here you need to use the meter to find the shadows you want to keep detail in, then work out the exposure from there. Usually, it will work best if you can place your exposure 2 stops above the shadows you wish to keep. I often shoot my Portra with the meter set for ISO100, just for the extra 2/3 stop of insurance.
Velvia is tricky film generally, and especially so with Velvia 50. Its relatively easy to shoot in shade or in the golden light, but in mid day, something like Tower Falls would be a real challenge. You'll fight with blocked up shadows and clipped highlights. Kodak's E100VS is nearly equal a challenge, but with a palette favoring warm tones, red, orange and yellow versus Velvia's strength in green and magenta. E100G and Provia are quite a bit easier to shoot while still keeping reasonable saturation. E100G produces the best sky blue of any slide film in my opinion. If you can find some 120 format E100GX, its my absolute favorite, but its been hard to find since Kodak discontinued it. I have 40 rolls of 35mm, but have not been able to get any 120 format yet. Its a little warmer than E100G, without affecting the blues and was considered to be the closest E-6 film to Kodakchrome. Yellow, red and orange absolutely pop on this film and the blue is the same jewel tone as E100G while the neutrals are slightly warm. Astia has just a tad more latitude, but you might find the colors muted for your tastes.
Alot of people recommend that you meter off the highlights for slide film and call it a day. I don't think this is an appropriate method of solving exposure problems though. You need to think about what you are trying to accomplish. Your meter is designed to meter a result of 18% gray. Often what I'll do with my Pentax digital is measure the highlights and shadows so I'm aware of their spread, but I'll often use a good reference for the middle gray. For instance a clear blue sky is often a good reference as is grass (often dry and green can both work). Often a tan rock will work as will skin (though I don't often have skin as a metering point in my landscapes). I take all these values in and determine whether a GND is needed or a filter of some other sort. You've got to think about the meter reading a bit. Your DSLR can act as a polaroid if you plug your exposure values in manual mode. Just be aware that ISO 100 on a DSLR does not necessarily mean ISO 100 and that the clipping markers may not line up with the latitude of your film.
One last thing I would highly recommend is that you make a little log of your exposures when you start. It will help you learn what works and what doesn't on your film. On digital it records all the exposure info, but film doesn't. Its either wrong or right and without the log, its difficult to know where in your exposure decision process the fault was introduced. In the log, I would record film, roll, frame, EV high, EV low, EV selected, description, focal length, time, aperture, filters. It takes only a second to record this info.
There is no reason be be intimidated by using a film camera. It works on the same concepts as your digital cameras and if you can create a competent digital image, you can have the same tools available when shooting film. Good luck to you.
Mel-
Kent in SD
The camera's back is sealed; no counter window. Tha camera has an exposure counter. Also, multiple exposure is selectable via a small lever on the lower right side of the camera body, so unless Joe specifically sets it, the default is a single exposure per frame.
Your cautions about loading/unloading film in subdued light are well advised.
Joe: the camera has an adjustable diopter for the viewfinder. Be sure to adjust it for your eye before shooting.. Here's how to do it: Remove the lens from the camera and then aim the camera at a fairly bright light source. Adjust the diopter unitl the central spot microprism is tack sharp. Reinstall the lens, and you'll be good to go.
--P