I recently had to delete a post that had some useful off topic information in it. However, the post degraded into a political debate. I understand we all may have different beliefs and feel strongly about them. Unless they are related to how you would hike the hill, pack the bag or shoot the shot we ask that you try and not bring them into the forum conversations. We would like to keep this forum as free of those conversations as we can. There have been many forums that have been diluted because of this type of banter.
I whole heartedlly agree, Jim. It will degrade and ruin a forum quick as it usually only degenerates into heated tempers. There are plently of forums for that.
Joe Rogers
Jim, is it possible to just delete offending comments, lock a thread, or even create information only posts? It's sad to think a helpful post might be deleted because we're afraid one member might offend another.
Funny, it's really a choice, not a rule. America is free speech, and there are 90 million places on this planet across the web to voice our opinions, and to be honest, we really CAN if we wanted to in this forum or any other, from a purely technical standpoint. But I'd say we don't want to here. Let's face it: we are all passionate about what we believe in, and somebody else's post isn't going to change our minds. NPN is our respite from all the arguing of the world, we can convene here and focus on our passion for this great art we are all involved in. So while I admire Todd's fire for what he believes in (the Elvis sig cracks me up), Jim is right, we want to keep the dirt off of OUR carpeting here. Let's face it, we're not dumbos, we all can pretty much tell where we stand on things, lol!
Jim, any chance you could attach some sappy music to my post?
I like Paul W's suggestion about possibly having the option of posting info-only posts (where comments are completely disabled). For moderators or members to have to cherry-pick comments to delete on topics that might bring these types of issues to mind will probably continue to be tricky.
No hard feelings here Todd. I think we all know your opinions come from an indisputable deep concern and passion for Colorado and our region. I, likewise, regret the direction of that post and agree that we should keep comments on-topic to outdoor experiences, nature and photography.
I was fine with this thread until Josh just said something nice about my motives. I now find this entire post to be completely off-topic and think it should be deleted STAT!
While we don't all fit into the same segments of the political spectrum, there are most certainly very important current events in the political arena that affect the members of this forum including things such as the sales tax discussion in that now deleted thread, land use/access issues and mineral extraction issues that affect our members. Because these actions stem from our government, it will be impossible to prevent these discussions drifting into politics. At the same time, landscape and nature photography are themselves intertwined with politics, lobbying, the DOI, BLM, NPS, USDA, USFS, DOT and many other agencies of the government. I don't think that asking this forum to remain apolitical is necessarily a good thing. An uninformed public is certainly not what we need now that the coffers of corporations can be turned into political war chests thanks to the Supreme Court's ruling this year.
I certainly hope that I didn't write anything that could be seen as offensive (to anyone but Doug Bruce... who deserves a swift kick in the teeth for being a perennial jackass), but I tend to believe that government and politics influence our lives in a profound manner. They don't rule our lives, and this is no caste system, but they do create structure and a framework for the society in which we live. Being ignorant of the law does not make it go away just as burying one's head in the sand does not make a threat go away.
Perhaps I missed something significant after my post in the sales tax thread, but I would hope that we could maintain civil discourse among this collection of fine photographers.
I'd encourage everyone to take quick look at the NPN Forum Guidelines. The rules of conduct are clearly stated. I firmly believe that these rules have played a very important role in the success of this forum.
Hear, hear to Scott's comments and I am all for keeping it strictly photographic. So much animosity on other forums that doesn't exist here. I will say it again how refreshing this place is. Kudos to Jim!
I think what we should consider is an exclusive, members-only (viewable) forum where its a no-holds-barred, double-barrel, anything-goes shooting gallery where members can rant n rave all they want without feeling badly about offending, persuading, and even slightly appearing any bit arrogant among their peers.
Honestly, in my opinion, I think this forum needs a swift kick in the arse in terms of the seemingly hesitant and often bland critiques, general lack of replies to quality threads, and could benefit from substantial amounts of solid discourse regarding the very thing we all love to do: the ART, TECHNIQUE, OBSERVATIONS, ACCEPTANCE & RATIONALIZATION behind our Photography. After all, photography is so much more than just taking the picture, doing some Photoshop, then printing and framing. It's about the Experience, the Motivation, the Exposure and so much more, and I would love to have more abstract discussions about the stuff of our craft. Maybe I can't get that here....
I love the idea of this RMNP forum, and that's why I joined, was because of all of you talented and passionate photographers. Unfortunately, I just don't find it appealing if some of the more off-topic content can't be posted here. Many of us paid good money to be members here and I feel that that should allow for some leeway in what we can and cannot discuss. If we're so concerned about lurkers, then close off the site to those who are not members! It's as easy as that.
So that is it. Apologies for being so straight-up about this, but its been on my mind for awhile. I suppose I can attribute it to my latest photographic endeavours, which have given me a morose and downtrodden feeling as of late. This mindset goes against the grain of what photographers like to do, which is shoot things they LIKE to shoot. I suppose thats why most of you chose nature, and not post-industrial, sordid and gritty, nearly-dystopic subject matter that after a day of being amongst really gives you the blues. But in the end, it was well worth it.
I used to be a member of a forum on another photography website, but left because it seemed that NO ONE (even the mods, for crying out loud) were remotely capable of keeping threads on track and relevant to photography. Even the most benign statement about how or when or where a photo was taken would degenerate into some kind social/political slug-fest (that forum was sorta like reading the blogs for the Denver Post or the Gazette).
I have no idea what the offending thread was all about, but I appreciate that the members here keep threads/posts limited to photography.
So, I may have not made it clear in my posting, though I though I did. The post itself was fine, while we don't encourage off topic conversations we have been very good at labeling them as such and many times there has been a lot of great information in them. As long as they don't get out of control I see no reason why OT: posts can't continue. This particular one also had some great information about new tax information that is going on in the State of Colorado with online retailers. The topic is not the reason that it was deleted. The post had not been brought to my attention by other paying members of this forum, within the post was a good number of replies that were specifically forbidden under NPN's terms of use. This is why the post was deleted.
Chris, I agree with you about our hugfest we often have on image critiques. Some of it is a necessary evil of having a public forum. We don't want to hurt our new members unexpectedly. In my opinion if you want honest C&C state so in your posts. Some people post here for the pat on the back others post to get better. Make it clear which you are.
Thanks for that breath of fresh air, Chris. I think you hit the nail on the head. One thing I think separates RMNP from other internet forums is that many of the folks here have met, and know each other outside the confines of the forum. This makes our discourse very civil compared to other forums I've frequented. I think this factor alone would allow your "no holds barred" forum idea to work. I'd be all for such a forum.
Hey guys, yeah sorry if I went a little overboard with my take there. I definitely think we have the best community going on this RMNP board and honestly I think it is awesome, and rare - from what I understand the CANP and the PNWNP groups aren't so friendly - in fact, it appears to me that there is lots of competition on the West Coast, and personally I think thats pretty lame, but whatever, we're prety lucky to live where we do. Ha!
Some of you know I wanted to start a photography cooperative back in late 2009, which I shot down heavy handedly soon after the idea manifested. The idea was to be very similar to this forum, instead a real brick and mortar place where we could 'post' and 'critique' face-to-face, interact with one another, have guest speakers, critiques, and just plain ol have a good time. I suppose my enthusiasm for this concept hasn't completely fizzled, in fact, I think it could be lots of fun, that is, if members were able to put business aside and enjoy the photography for what it is - a hobby for many of us.
Anyway, going back to critiques online - please if you are looking for a through evaluation, definitely ask! You may not like what you hear, but you have to learn to develop thick skin and suck it up - subsequently making it work. This is such a good way to learn! I hear some people saying they don't want critiques because it will mess with their 'personal style'. What a load of crap! If they're that uptight then they shouldn't be on the forum. After all, this is 'our time' away from work, life, bills, family, etc, right? Let's make the best of it guys!!
Ah man...i missed all the fun somewhow...
Anyhow, i agree with Mel, Chris etc. The best thing about this forum and NPN in general is that we can express differences in opinion without things degenerating into insults etc which is commonplace on other forums. I think the line is pretty easy to see when its been crossed.
I hate getting old when it takes me 24 hours to realize what a hypocrite I am. I commented in agreement with Scott's post and yet 4 days ago I posted an off topic set of photos from Ft. Logan. While most are probably in agreement with my sentiments, there undoubtedly are some that do not. To those I sincerely apologize for posting what could be considered a political topic. I promise to keep my OT posts non-political in the future.
Morris
Discussion
22 repliesThanks
Jim Casteel
Joe Rogers
Jim, any chance you could attach some sappy music to my post?
No hard feelings here Todd. I think we all know your opinions come from an indisputable deep concern and passion for Colorado and our region. I, likewise, regret the direction of that post and agree that we should keep comments on-topic to outdoor experiences, nature and photography.
While we don't all fit into the same segments of the political spectrum, there are most certainly very important current events in the political arena that affect the members of this forum including things such as the sales tax discussion in that now deleted thread, land use/access issues and mineral extraction issues that affect our members. Because these actions stem from our government, it will be impossible to prevent these discussions drifting into politics. At the same time, landscape and nature photography are themselves intertwined with politics, lobbying, the DOI, BLM, NPS, USDA, USFS, DOT and many other agencies of the government. I don't think that asking this forum to remain apolitical is necessarily a good thing. An uninformed public is certainly not what we need now that the coffers of corporations can be turned into political war chests thanks to the Supreme Court's ruling this year.
I certainly hope that I didn't write anything that could be seen as offensive (to anyone but Doug Bruce... who deserves a swift kick in the teeth for being a perennial jackass), but I tend to believe that government and politics influence our lives in a profound manner. They don't rule our lives, and this is no caste system, but they do create structure and a framework for the society in which we live. Being ignorant of the law does not make it go away just as burying one's head in the sand does not make a threat go away.
Perhaps I missed something significant after my post in the sales tax thread, but I would hope that we could maintain civil discourse among this collection of fine photographers.
Honestly, in my opinion, I think this forum needs a swift kick in the arse in terms of the seemingly hesitant and often bland critiques, general lack of replies to quality threads, and could benefit from substantial amounts of solid discourse regarding the very thing we all love to do: the ART, TECHNIQUE, OBSERVATIONS, ACCEPTANCE & RATIONALIZATION behind our Photography. After all, photography is so much more than just taking the picture, doing some Photoshop, then printing and framing. It's about the Experience, the Motivation, the Exposure and so much more, and I would love to have more abstract discussions about the stuff of our craft. Maybe I can't get that here....
I love the idea of this RMNP forum, and that's why I joined, was because of all of you talented and passionate photographers. Unfortunately, I just don't find it appealing if some of the more off-topic content can't be posted here. Many of us paid good money to be members here and I feel that that should allow for some leeway in what we can and cannot discuss. If we're so concerned about lurkers, then close off the site to those who are not members! It's as easy as that.
So that is it. Apologies for being so straight-up about this, but its been on my mind for awhile. I suppose I can attribute it to my latest photographic endeavours, which have given me a morose and downtrodden feeling as of late. This mindset goes against the grain of what photographers like to do, which is shoot things they LIKE to shoot. I suppose thats why most of you chose nature, and not post-industrial, sordid and gritty, nearly-dystopic subject matter that after a day of being amongst really gives you the blues. But in the end, it was well worth it.
Off to see the Wizard.....
I have no idea what the offending thread was all about, but I appreciate that the members here keep threads/posts limited to photography.
Chris, I agree with you about our hugfest we often have on image critiques. Some of it is a necessary evil of having a public forum. We don't want to hurt our new members unexpectedly. In my opinion if you want honest C&C state so in your posts. Some people post here for the pat on the back others post to get better. Make it clear which you are.
Some of you know I wanted to start a photography cooperative back in late 2009, which I shot down heavy handedly soon after the idea manifested. The idea was to be very similar to this forum, instead a real brick and mortar place where we could 'post' and 'critique' face-to-face, interact with one another, have guest speakers, critiques, and just plain ol have a good time. I suppose my enthusiasm for this concept hasn't completely fizzled, in fact, I think it could be lots of fun, that is, if members were able to put business aside and enjoy the photography for what it is - a hobby for many of us.
Anyway, going back to critiques online - please if you are looking for a through evaluation, definitely ask! You may not like what you hear, but you have to learn to develop thick skin and suck it up - subsequently making it work. This is such a good way to learn! I hear some people saying they don't want critiques because it will mess with their 'personal style'. What a load of crap! If they're that uptight then they shouldn't be on the forum. After all, this is 'our time' away from work, life, bills, family, etc, right? Let's make the best of it guys!!
CGR
Oh wait, is this off topic?
Anyhow, i agree with Mel, Chris etc. The best thing about this forum and NPN in general is that we can express differences in opinion without things degenerating into insults etc which is commonplace on other forums. I think the line is pretty easy to see when its been crossed.
Morris