Posted by Jack Garrett on July 23, 2010 at 5:59 PM
Last week a photographer friend of mine was at Paradise lake. There was a group of photographers as part of a workshop all in a line at the lake. My friend went around to another part of the lake to shoot. One of the leaders came over and informed my friend that he was in the shot and to move out of the way, which he did. After a while he went back to take his shot and once again the group leader came over, told hom to move again and said "you don't listen very well do you" then called him an A$$.... These guys were in that spot for over an hour and apparently thought they owned it. I don't have a problem getting out of the way for a few minutes while someone takes some shots but..over an hour??? is this proper etiquette? I need to know since I probably would have been arrested for assault if someone said that to me, especially after I had already bowed to them once.
Jack - Your friend was courteous enough to move out of the way the first time - he should not feel compelled to do it again. If they ask nicely and limit their inconvenience of your friend, he might consider moving again. If they're rude and abusive, he should stay where he is and put on some blaze orange hunting gear just to really mess with them.
Often the courtesy is not appreciated anyway. I stayed behind a workshop group in the Tetons once (because I didn't want to mess up their shots) and they thought I was following them and trying to get in on their workshop for free.
I keep hearing stories about these workshop leaders abusing individual photographers and I can't wait for someone to try that with me. If they ask nicely I'll work out some ground rules for my temporary disappearance.
If they are abusive, I will hurt them - economically. Through years of trial law I have learned a few things about leading people into traps of their own making. After a brief discussion within the hearing of their clients, I can guarantee you you that the workshop leader will have hoist himself on his own petard and his clients will have lost all confidence in him.
Etiquette runs both ways. There is something inherently "not proper etiquette" about bringing a large group into the wilderness, or to spots of great beauty. That being said, if a group leader is nice I am more inclined to go out of my way to accomadate, but if he/she acts entitled, then forget it.
Check out this post I made last February on this forum:
I'm pretty much with CAZ on this one. First of all, I wouldn't have walked into the group's shot if the light was really happening, and doing so would mess up a great photo op, but if they were taking an inordinate amount of time in one spot, I'd feel free to act as if they weren't even there. If the workshop leader came up with a line like that to me, well, you were standing next to a lake, right? I'd either incorporate that into my response verbally or physically, as in, go jump in a...
One thing I'd add, for the benefit of anyone either leading a group or participating in one, is that group leaders need to understand that just because they've got a troupe of paying customers does not give them carte blanche access to any location. They really need to be cognizant of any non-affiliated photographers in the area. Chances are, these other photographers also paid good money and traveled long distances to be there, despite the fact that they're not doing so as part of a group. Not only is it annoying from a photographic standpoint to be shooting somewhere and have a vanload of photographers suddenly rush onto the scene, but many of us do this for the communing-with-nature aspect of it, and that's pretty much shot to hell when a horde of people, photographers or not, noisily enters the fray.
UPDATE:
Yo Tony, speaking of etiquette, how 'bout hyperlinking! Argh!!!
As a general rule, if I'm there first, I'm certainly not going to move out of the way...whether it be for one photographer or for a workshop of 20 photographers. If there's people already shooting, I'm not going to go stand in a spot where I'm clearly going to be in their shot and I'm not going to ask them to move out of the way. Or, if I really want to get a shot from that spot, I'll ask if they mind if I quickly get a shot from there. If they were at one spot for an hour, it would certainly be unreasonable for them not to let you quickly get your shot, but I think the best policy is always to ask first.
How about adjusting your photo position out of the way of the group's, to a) get a unique perspective unlike every one of the workshop participants, and b) to avoid any and all confrontations which appear to be particularly heated these days. The lake/mountains/streams/aspens aren't going anywhere for awhile, so go visit the location a different day sans workshop..... how about them apples?
Yeah, but Chris, what if a rainbow appears over that little lake on Paradise Divide? I wouldn't mind standing in a line-up of 20 photographers for THAT shot! Try and stop me.
Todd, yes I understand but you'd be standing among a bunch of people, not in the shot, as Jack's buddy was. I've learned that the minimum amount of inconvenience caused to my fellow man is the best course of action, no matter where it is in life. I wouldn't even go near a photo tour, and if there was one (once I was in Utah and a Sexton workshop rolled up after us at Road Canyon, so we decided to revisit the ruins: even though we were there before them), I'd be invisible to them. Besides, its always a real treat to revisit these locations (if you can do so at your leisure).
This stuff is pretty interesting, especially when you are dealing with the real popular locations. I have been fortunate enough to avoid high numbers of photographers by choice, but I can understand how frustrating some of these situations can be.
Whoever has the most expensive camera has the right of way.
Posted by Phillip Noll on July 23, 2010 at 8:08 PM
Perhaps the workshop leader should offer a workshop on the cloning tool?
Posted by Phillip Noll on July 23, 2010 at 8:11 PM
Whoever has the most expensive camera has the right of way.
Just because someone has expensive gear doesn't mean they know how to use it!
Posted by Jack Garrett on July 24, 2010 at 1:16 AM
Christopher, If I got up at 2:00 AM and drove all night to get to a particular spot, I wouldn't turn around and go back home or somewhere else just because a group was there. I agree with what most of the others are saying here. I would try to work out something with the group leader and if they weren't willing I would inform them that after a reasonable period of time, I plan to take a couple minutes for my shot and be done with it. We are all on public lands and I don't feel that any one person or group has exclusive rights. I had to clone a guy out of one of my best shots the other day and I didn't resort to name calling. I asked nicely if he could duck for a second and he totally ignored me. I took my shots and moved on. CS5 has a great content aware tool!!
Thanks to all of you for the feedback...I appreciate it. By the way Caz, I have the brightest orange shirt you've ever seen!!!
Jack, it sounds like the guy you encountered is a content unaware tool.
Posted by Howard Cihak on July 24, 2010 at 1:51 AM
I'm with Caz and Todd on this. My usual retort is to ask to see the deed. When they look at me quizzically, I say, "You know, that piece of paper that says you own this place. Oh! You don't have one? Well, then, go find the guy that does and let him explain it to me."
Call me belligerent, but I believe courtesy is wasted on those who don't practice it to begin with.
Posted by George Hager on July 24, 2010 at 2:09 AM
If I come upon a scene and another photographer (or group) is set up on it, I feel he has the right of way. Kind of like at a 4 way stop - first come first serve. If I don't feel I can wait the guy out, I would ask if he minds while I get a shot from within his frame. Most people say no problem. If he said no because he has been set up there for the last two days to get a certain shot I can understand as I have been in that position before. I would move on. Also, if I wanted to shoot from near him, I would also ask if he minded. I've done this dozens of times and never had a problem.
Now lets look at he other side. You're set up to take a shot you have been trying to get for the last two years and some moron (who sees you set up on the picture) walks right into your frame. I feel it is justifiable to go remove that person from your picture by whatever means available (unless of course, the blood messes up your picture). This has happened to me several times and it never fails to ruin my day. I've given up confronting the guy because he is usually to stupid to teach. Imagine this: You are standing by Maroon Lake with 50 other photographers and it is fall - the aspen trees are perfect, the lake is dead calm, there is just the right dusting of snow on the Bells, there are even clouds, you have been freezing your butt off since way before dawn and now after waiting for three hours, the light is just right. Just as you are ready to start your picture taking some complete idiot pulls on waders and stomps out into the lake in front of everyone so he can get a different angle. Of course, everyone screams at him and a few might take a shot or two using equipment other than a camera. He comes back to shore, but 20 minutes later does the same thing again. What reaction do you think he is going to get this time? If someone just called him an @$$, I would say he got off easy. Truth is he would probably be sleeping with the brook trout.
One problem, two sides. I guess it depends on where you are standing. Geeeez, I'm getting way to mellow in my old age.
As someone who has lead a great many workshops and Photo Safaris, The first thing I make sure my group knows is to be respectful of others in the field. I and my group do not own a location. I might approach someone if needed but only as a last resort and only with the respect that they too have a right to capture a scene. There have been times I had even invited them over to the same location my group was working and got out of their way as well.
This is something that goes beyond photography. That jerk is probably that way in everything he does.
Jack, without knowing who it was I'll say this type of behavior is what gives photographers a bad name and why some park rangers are leery of photo workshops. I suggest your friend contacts the park's superintendent or chief ranger and report this incident. Whoever the operator is, they will need to renew their Commercial Use Authorization annually and their application will be reviewed by park authorities who should know if they are not operating in a manner that is consistent with the mission of the park.
Christopher, If I got up at 2:00 AM and drove all night to get to a particular spot, I wouldn't turn around and go back home or somewhere else just because a group was there.
I completely agree with this statement, Jack. I'm just pointing out that I prefer to keep my distance and not interfere with the workflow of the photo workshop. Furthermore, those people did pay good money, and when someone pays that amount they should expect a solid amount of traning and the ability to see the landscape without other photographers milling about and potentially distracting them. Don't get me wrong, equality in the field is parmamount, but timing is everything too.
Hey Guy - don't you have to have a permit to run a photo workshop in a National Park?
As a general rule, if I'm there first, I'm certainly not going to move out of the way...whether it be for one photographer or for a workshop of 20 photographers. If there's people already shooting, I'm not going to go stand in a spot where I'm clearly going to be in their shot and I'm not going to ask them to move out of the way. Or, if I really want to get a shot from that spot, I'll ask if they mind if I quickly get a shot from there. If they were at one spot for an hour, it would certainly be unreasonable for them not to let you quickly get your shot, but I think the best policy is always to ask first.
Todd, in that case reporting the incident will get them in even more trouble (operating without a permit on NPS managed land means federal prosecution). Remember the case of Michael Fatali.
Some one telling me I don't listen well and calling me an a** while on public land would definately get my testosterone going. Clearly improper etiquette. I would indeed want to report the group leader to the FS.
Though there are probably a few details missing as I would see it. A couple of years ago I was at a popular photo location where a group of individuals and two workshop groups were lined up at the most obvious viewpoint waiting for the few critical moments at sunrise. One fellow from one of the workshops wondered down to a point where he would be in most everyone's typical composition. Needless to say he had plenty of people who were angry with him and saying very unkind things. Maybe an extreme, but you might imagine a photographer in waders out in the lake trying for a new perspective at the Bells on a popular fall weekend.
FWIW, this happened on National Forest land, which I think would be less stringent than NPS regs, but it would still be a painful and expensive ordeal. But I'll bet there's a whole bunch of people out there leading multi-participant workshops without the proper paperwork. I don't have anything official, but I only take a person at a time and kinda "show 'em around," nothing too official.
Posted by Phillip Noll on July 24, 2010 at 10:31 PM
Maybe an extreme, but you might imagine a photographer in waders out in the lake trying for a new perspective at the Bells on a popular fall weekend.
Ha! Not extreme in the least. The one and only time I have been to the Bells for sunrise a person with hip waders did just that! Really P.O.'ed all the people on shore. And it was 15 degrees that morning with fresh snow!
Posted by Brett Deacon on July 25, 2010 at 12:11 AM
Another ditto for what Jack G. said. A courteously brief spurt of bear spray might help motivate the person who decides to wade into Maroon Lake to head back to shore. I happened upon a photo workshop at Oxbow Bend last fall but like Maroon Lake the shoreline is huge there and there is plenty of room for everyone to spread out and not get in each others' way. I imagine I would have felt murderous if I was photographing from the water's edge and some idiot wandered out into the middle of the river. One can always clone out the offending person, but the screwed-up, rippled reflection surrounding the person is another matter....
I agree with Todd and CAZ. To dominate a location for an hour. . .please, that's just being a jerk. I remember shooting a shot a few years ago in the Steamboat area, nice peaceful, all to myself, when the roar of three suburbans came up the road and a bunch of guys all piled out and all just filled in right around me. Now the tour leader did at least ask if it was ok, and I replied, "As long as you're not in my shot." and he agreed. A few minutes later the tour leader asked if he could borrow a particular lens so he could better frame the shot. I obliged when I was done using it. Oh, the tour leader. . .prominent CO shooter with a lot of books and llamas. lol.
Discussion
25 repliesOften the courtesy is not appreciated anyway. I stayed behind a workshop group in the Tetons once (because I didn't want to mess up their shots) and they thought I was following them and trying to get in on their workshop for free.
I keep hearing stories about these workshop leaders abusing individual photographers and I can't wait for someone to try that with me. If they ask nicely I'll work out some ground rules for my temporary disappearance.
If they are abusive, I will hurt them - economically. Through years of trial law I have learned a few things about leading people into traps of their own making. After a brief discussion within the hearing of their clients, I can guarantee you you that the workshop leader will have hoist himself on his own petard and his clients will have lost all confidence in him.
Check out this post I made last February on this forum:
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=52400&CGISESSID=ba3d8174fb03059dd121444868f13050&u=20355
One thing I'd add, for the benefit of anyone either leading a group or participating in one, is that group leaders need to understand that just because they've got a troupe of paying customers does not give them carte blanche access to any location. They really need to be cognizant of any non-affiliated photographers in the area. Chances are, these other photographers also paid good money and traveled long distances to be there, despite the fact that they're not doing so as part of a group. Not only is it annoying from a photographic standpoint to be shooting somewhere and have a vanload of photographers suddenly rush onto the scene, but many of us do this for the communing-with-nature aspect of it, and that's pretty much shot to hell when a horde of people, photographers or not, noisily enters the fray.
UPDATE:
Yo Tony, speaking of etiquette, how 'bout hyperlinking! Argh!!!
This stuff is pretty interesting, especially when you are dealing with the real popular locations. I have been fortunate enough to avoid high numbers of photographers by choice, but I can understand how frustrating some of these situations can be.
Thanks to all of you for the feedback...I appreciate it. By the way Caz, I have the brightest orange shirt you've ever seen!!!
Call me belligerent, but I believe courtesy is wasted on those who don't practice it to begin with.
Now lets look at he other side. You're set up to take a shot you have been trying to get for the last two years and some moron (who sees you set up on the picture) walks right into your frame. I feel it is justifiable to go remove that person from your picture by whatever means available (unless of course, the blood messes up your picture). This has happened to me several times and it never fails to ruin my day. I've given up confronting the guy because he is usually to stupid to teach. Imagine this: You are standing by Maroon Lake with 50 other photographers and it is fall - the aspen trees are perfect, the lake is dead calm, there is just the right dusting of snow on the Bells, there are even clouds, you have been freezing your butt off since way before dawn and now after waiting for three hours, the light is just right. Just as you are ready to start your picture taking some complete idiot pulls on waders and stomps out into the lake in front of everyone so he can get a different angle. Of course, everyone screams at him and a few might take a shot or two using equipment other than a camera. He comes back to shore, but 20 minutes later does the same thing again. What reaction do you think he is going to get this time? If someone just called him an @$$, I would say he got off easy. Truth is he would probably be sleeping with the brook trout.
One problem, two sides. I guess it depends on where you are standing. Geeeez, I'm getting way to mellow in my old age.
This is something that goes beyond photography. That jerk is probably that way in everything he does.
Guy
I completely agree with this statement, Jack. I'm just pointing out that I prefer to keep my distance and not interfere with the workflow of the photo workshop. Furthermore, those people did pay good money, and when someone pays that amount they should expect a solid amount of traning and the ability to see the landscape without other photographers milling about and potentially distracting them. Don't get me wrong, equality in the field is parmamount, but timing is everything too.
Hey Guy - don't you have to have a permit to run a photo workshop in a National Park?
DITTO
HA! That's a good one.
Guy
Though there are probably a few details missing as I would see it. A couple of years ago I was at a popular photo location where a group of individuals and two workshop groups were lined up at the most obvious viewpoint waiting for the few critical moments at sunrise. One fellow from one of the workshops wondered down to a point where he would be in most everyone's typical composition. Needless to say he had plenty of people who were angry with him and saying very unkind things. Maybe an extreme, but you might imagine a photographer in waders out in the lake trying for a new perspective at the Bells on a popular fall weekend.