Why religion?

On a regular basis people include or refer to religious statements in their posts or signatures. I would think that a persons religion would be a private affair, and personally, I find this annoying and at times offensive when included with, or used to describe a beautiful scene of nature. Why do people feel compelled to do that when they don't have to?

Thanks, Jim, for letting this run it's course. You nipped it just as the spouting began. Good call.

I don't know either, Jeffrey, but I'm guessing you're going to get some interesting discussion going with this question. Relevant to nature photography? Probably not. Interesting? For sure.

I am with you Jeffrey - I find it annoying as well, not sure why people do it. I have learned to tolerate

Relevant to nature photography?

That's where the controversy is going to come in. Lots of folks respond to nature specifically through their religious beliefs, and more power to them. It's a sincere connection between them and nature, and I have to admire it.

If you happen not to share their religious convictions and connections to nature, skip their lines and enjoy their photography. I mean, if there's room for us Nikon shooters among all the Canon shooters, surely there's room for people who have different views and experiences with nature.

Having grown up in the bible belt, I know that religion permeates peoples lives. Everything they do is through the lens of their faith. Personally, I have always felt that spirituality is a personal thing and should be kept to one's self. Still I'd rather have a bit of scripture in some one's signature than their political persuasions. I can live with it without complaint.

I am in full agreement with Hank's view.

I think the 'Hot Topics' forum would be a more appropriate venue for this discussion.

--P

I recently got an e-mail from a relative (he is a principal at a relgious school) who exclaimed how much he loved my photos and seeing God's work through my eyes. I commented to my parents how I didn't understand why he had to turn my pictures into a religious thing. My father informed me that this is simply how my relative sees it and he is expressing this to me. It's not a matter of injecting religion into nature photography - some people see the two as one. Ignore the stuff that bothers you and move on.

Good replies.

Buck wrote, "Still I'd rather have a bit of scripture in some one's signature than their political persuasions".

Those are not the only two choices. 'Neither' is a better one!

Yes, politics are in the same category, but we are savvy enough to prohibit that here. I wonder why just that?

I expect this will quickly elevate to "Hot Topics" status. But of course Jim gets to make the call.

Agree 100% with Hank's comments.

I personally don't understand what is so offensive about someone's religious beliefs and being proud and confident enough to declare that? Are we supposed to be homogeneous lemmings and all believe and behave exactly the same as everyone else? In today's world, everyone is "preaching" "tolerance" and "diversity," yet there are just some cultural and societal groups that somehow are excluded.

We have always been told that if we're "offended" by books, movies, etc. to just change the channel, don't watch, don't read it. Well, one should apply the same standards to religious views as they do to violence or indecent movie scenes.

I'm not a particularly religious person. I have my beliefs but don't have any formal practices. The discussion about religion are deep and divided and we won't solve them here.

Lon

I'm glad you brought up this topic.

Please note this statement from the NPN posting guidelines

Discussion of religion, politics/political activism or any other controversial subject that has little or nothing to do with ther art and technique of nature photography is subject to deletion without notice.

That makes it clear that such statements as Jeffrey notes are not appropriate here on NPN. It is much easier to get along with everyone who shares a common interest in Nature Photography if we don 't have to make allowances for beliefs we may not share.

Is a "statement" a "discussion?" What we're having here is a discussion. Simply adding a statement or quote to your signature doesn't constitute a discussion. It takes two or more to have a discussion.

How far does one go? In Richards signature above, he quotes Thomas Jefferson, a politician. Why is quoting him ok, but quoting scripture not? I know many who are rolling their eyes and saying, yeah, but that's different....

We better have Preston remove his Avatar, after all that's a political statement.

The solution is not to ban something... but to learn to be "tolerant" right?

Lon

Although I am obviously on one side of this fence, I don't think that the types of comments I am referring to violate the stated guidelines that Richard points out. I am not referring to political or religious discussions. And yes, I am tolerant, strive to get along, and not complaining here. I move on when it gets too heavy, and I do not question anyones 'right' to express themselves. More like curious.

Jeffrey,

And I for one appreciate your even keel.... :-)

I think Richard was referring to signatures and not the fact that you brought this topic up. Could be wrong, but that's my impression.

And in reading your original comments more closely, you weren't even referring to signatures, but to folks inserting their views in the comments themselves. For me, that's the same thing when you hear an athlete or actor being interviewed and they speak of the same things. Again, I think we should respect other people's beliefs and views.

As to your original question,

Why do people feel compelled to do that when they don't have to?

I can't see this as something they feel the "have" to do, but it's part of who they are and they "want" to do it.

Lon

I've always seen folks express their religious views here on NPN very respectfully . . . usually, nothing more than a one-line reference below their signature. I think it is ridiculous to say that these statements are inappropriate. I would have to try pretty hard to be offended by a one-liner about God and the beauty of nature. Seriously, I'm about as non-religious as folks come and I can't even begin to see the point of criticizing this innocuous expression of religious views.

Now, an extended discussion of the Bible in response to a post would be in an entirely different league . . . and I think that is the type of "discussion" that is referenced in the NPN posting guidelines. But if that's become an issue I sure haven't noticed.

“Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom.” - Thomas Jefferson

I don't see this as a political statement, just as I wouldn't label it a religious statement if I it had been said by the pope.

To clarify, I am not implying that Jeffrey Sipress is in violation of the guideline I quoted in my first post.

I am saying that I am happy Jeffrey started this discussion.

I am suggesting that religious quotes (like bible verses) in signature blocks are inappropriate and probably a violation of the guideline even if they are not technically "discussions."

I think dealing with diversity and different beliefs is something that everyone should live with. Its the 21st century and to be honest I find all religions fascinating. If I see a quote that refers to Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, ect. I'm much more likely to stop and reflect on a good quote that almost always has a good meaning, regardless of the religion. If you get annoyed by a religious reference then maybe you need to be a little more open minded. This comment isn't mean't to offend anyone, simply offering my two cents...

Personally, I am offended by religious statements in signature blocks etc in a forum such as this.

I have considered adding a signature line of my own that reflects my attitude regarding religion just as others have done who support it. I haven't done so because I'm reluctant to offend those who are religious and because I think it's inapproprate in this forum. I may change my mind. A test of "tolerance" to see if it's a two way street.

Hey Jeffrey:
On a regular basis, people include or refer to religious statements when discussing politics as well

I can and do easily ingore such posts and comments on NPN. What I can't stand is when such things pervade political discourse and rational commentary.

Last December, the NOAA informed me of a big storm heading for Yosemite Valley. I knew it was coming; I planned for it; and I got some good images as a result (described in this blog post). A few weeks later, a friend told me that the storm and resulting photos were a "gift from God". For her, the grandeur and beauty could only be related to her God. From a deliberate and planned photographers perspective, this statement was a virtual insult. I was stripped of any credit so that her God could have it!

This is a tough topic. My view is that if an image or nature in general inspires someone in a manner that evokes the Divine in their mind then so be it. I, for one, respect the individual's right to hold those views and express their perspective in a non confrontational, or preaching manner. They are not trying to convert my thinking by making those statements in signatures or comments.

Like many others here, I am not one to associate my religious beliefs with my photography. However if others do I do not let it offend me.

Hey MG,

...a friend told me that the storm and resulting photos were a "gift from God".

What if she had said: "gift from Mother Nature" ?

think about it.

I would have to concur with Jeffrey as I think religious references are inappropriate on the forum. I am not terribly bothered by them and find ignoring them is easy, but I still don't think they are appropriate.

I would imagine that if someone had a quote to the effect of "The beauty of nature proves that God does not exist" or anything along those lines, those who are believers would be offended. Why then would one not assume the contrary could offend non-believers? This is a secular forum and as such, I feel any references to religion are unnecessary. Ditto on politics.

It is not that big of a deal to me either way, but since the topic was raised, I thought I would throw in my $0.02.

"They are not trying to convert my thinking by making those statements in signatures or comments."

Sorry, but they are. Why else would they tell you? It's been that way for 2000 years.

-------

Very well put, Harley.

"What if she had said: "gift from Mother Nature" ?"

Same reply, Lon. It wasn't a "gift" from anything or anyone; it was a natural occurrence of winter weather, and I planned appropriately.

And at the end of the day, we all find ourselves on the same page - we are all in awe of the natural beauty that surrounds us and compels us to capture with film/pixels. If our upbringing is religous and this process helps us define who we are, then so be it.

A scripture verse in a signature will remain acceptable. Open discussion of religion is where the line is drawn. So far, we have all been considerate enough to our fellow NPN members not to cross it and judging by the level of discourse on this site, I have no doubt it will remain that way.

BTW, the license plate on my car is NPN.

BTW #2, what do you make of the line in my sig?

Exactly Michael - so let's be honest and say it's nothing to do about God, but everything to do with someone else telling you that you had nothing to do with the beautiful images you captured and created. It makes you feel like you just took a snapshot rather than adding creative value to the image or that you planned for the weather.

What if I had scheduled to be there the same weekend? I never did check the weather report - I was going regardless; as is often the case. I came home with some beautiful images. Do my images have any less value than yours? What should matter is what you did to take advantage of those conditions and how you feel about your images.

Let's face it, nature does provide the wonderful elements that we love to photograph. And regardless of who, what or how nature was created, we are simply capturing something that is already there. Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that what I do when I create my images is artistic and hopefully most of us understand that we do ADD creativity, selectivity, talents, etc. etc. etc. to the photographic process, including yes, proper planning. I "create" an image based on how I arrange the elements, how I use the light, how I use my equipment and techniques. And just like eluded, I don't create the weather; but the weather can and does provide us the opportunity to capture beautiful images in our own creative ways.

If someone wants to thank God or Mother Nature for what we do, I'm fine either way.

Lon

I must say that this potentially hairy discussion is the most civil and courteous of any I've seen like it on any online forum. That's what I like about this place, honest, well thought out, and considerate replies by decent people.

Jim, that's a great line!

The scale of our existence is beyond human comprehension.

Love it!
My signature is my idealistic dream... If each and every individual took one step towards Peace... it could happen!

BTW #2, what do you make of the line in my sig?

Amen, brudda.

> BTW #2, what do you make of the line in my sig?

Jim's signature: The scale of our existence is beyond human comprehension.

If human comprehension is a finite set, the statement is suggesting the existence of an element that is not a member of that set. The truth of this assertion lies in knowing whether human comprehension is indeed a finite set.

I'm reluctant to involve myself here, but feel I should. My intent is not to offend anyone, so if I do, I apologize for it now. I'm a Christian. I've kept this to myself, because I agree that my faith, and my relationship with God is personal. Also, being a believer, doesn't mean I am without questions, frustration, and conflict about my belief. I think there are many relative arguments against a creator. But also see so many unbelievable, uncomprehendable things too. I have not had many spiritual experiences. But those I have had, have been when I am out in nature in those lonesome hours before the light. During these times I reflect on my life, and come to appreciate the gifts I am given, From whom, or what they are given is a mystery. But I have to question the happenstance of some of the things I have witnessed.

So, I understand why some feel compelled to add some religious referance to thier post, or avatar, or whatever. It does not, nor has not ever offended me, even before I had faith. I think in many cases, it is a subtle way of identifying one's self to other like minded people out there.

I'm not trying to pursuade anyone's thoughts here. Just offering mine. If I have crossed the boundary, I'm sorry, and understand if this is removed. Not up on a religious soapbox here. So I hope I didn't come across that way.

Chris

I am not religious. However adding a religious verse or anything similar is fine with me as long as it isn't overtly telling me what I should do. I'm actually surprised that we are even having this discussion frankly. I have had a roommate who was a devout Nazarene Christian that I got along great with and we are still friends to this date. One of my best friends is a Mormon and another is a Catholic. Clearly they are very religious people meanwhile I am indifferent toward it somehow we overlook all of that because we respect each others beliefs and each other as people.

Most people unintentionally (I assume for the most part) and consistently convey their own personal belief system (world-view) through spoken conversations on any number of topics and through the comments/responses that they write here on NPN. My impression, based largely on my experience here, is that there are very few nature/landscape photographers who share my beliefs.

Harley G. says:

I would imagine that if someone had a quote to the effect of "The beauty of nature proves that God does not exist" or anything along those lines, those who are believers would be offended.

Actually, I think that sentiment, while not necessarily stated overtly, is a pervasive underlying implication of much of what is posted about the world and nature on this forum. If "believers" were going to be offended by such statements, there would be ample opportunity. I am not offended because even though I expect people in a community like this to have common courtesy, I don't expect them to speak/write in a way that is inconsistent with what they believe in order that they might not question my own way of thinking.

In the end, I don't think it's really about respecting other people's beliefs as much as it is about valuing other individuals as human beings. Let a person share who they are if they feel obligated to do so. Feel free not to like having to hear about it. You can complain about it in a non-threatening way (which I believe is being done here in an appropriate manner), but be aware that when the majority complains about a minority, it can feel threatening in spite of the least hostile intentions.

Thanks for listening...and maybe now I'll go change my signature line.

Why religion? Why politics? Why philosophy? Why Austin Powers? :-)

Signature lines, if included, are widely varied on NPN. All reflect a value, an ideal, a belief, a statement that resonates with us or that shapes how we see and reflect on the world.

Many are quotes from politicians, environmentalists, composers, mentors, historical figures, photographers, philosophers, and others meaningful to us.

As such, they ALL shape the photographer and thereby the vision that the photographer captures in an image. What I believe, and what you believe or appreciate, CANNOT BE IRrelevant to our photography.

As for me, I see God very clearly in nature, and much less so within stone Church walls, but I never proselytize.

Why are people offended by some signatures and not others?

We are a very diverse community of all types of people, many countries, many colors, many religions/political outlooks/philosophies. What we have in common - if nothing else - is a love of nature and a dedication to capturing parts of it. The other stuff should not matter.

Think about this as you consider some of the signature lines on NPN:


Our ability to perceive quality in nature begins, as in art, with the pretty. It expands through successive stages of the beautiful to values as yet uncaptured by language. - Aldo Leopold

You cannot save time, you can only spend it wisely. Or, perhaps, freeze a moment of it in a photograph.

Every accomplishment starts with the decision to try." -anonymous

"Denial aint just a river in Egypt". Austin Powers

To photograph is to hold one's breath, when all faculties converge to capture fleeting reality. It's at that precise moment that mastering an image becomes a great physical and intellectual joy. -Henri Cartier-Bresson

Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom.” - Thomas Jefferson

For He spake, and it was done..."" ~Psalm 33:9a

Make the shot, don't just take the shot.

"God spelled backwards is Dog"....both can lift your spiritual outlook!

"A fanatic is someone who can't change their mind and won't change the subject." - Winston Churchill

"You were born an original. Don't die a copy."
- John Mason

Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of His hands."

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds.”
Edward Abbey

When life deals you lemons, make lemonade; when it deals you tomatoes, make Bloody Marys." --- unattributed.

You keep getting better or you are dead", Rafael Nadal, Sept 2010

Peace begins with each of us, as individuals

What is of all things most yielding|Can overcome that which is most hard|Being substanceless, it can enter| even where there is no crevice.
That is how I know the value of action which is actionless-Lao Tzu

"If it is more than six feet from the car, it is not photogenic." Edward Weston to Ansel Adams

If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun." - Katherine Hepburn

**** No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and to build confidence in the creative spirit” – Ansel Adams ****
(Read this one again - )

"It's less about the subject and more about the composition & light"

Perfection is the enemy of good."

"A bad day shooting landscapes beats the hell out of a good day doing just about anything else."

(This is a very respectful thread, and I'm once again duly impressed with the contributors)

Sandy r

Michael E. Gordon wrote:
A few weeks later, a friend told me that the storm and resulting photos were a "gift from God". For her, the grandeur and beauty could only be related to her God. From a deliberate and planned photographers perspective, this statement was a virtual insult. I was stripped of any credit so that her God could have it!

Michael, I wouldn't be insulted. This isn't much different than people saying "Wow! You must have a really good camera." How many times have you heard that?

As for the topic at hand, I don't see any problem with religious references in signatures or comments. Like it or not, religion is a big part of human culture.

I expected this to be a very difficult thread. Instead I have enjoyed reading everyone's point of view.

Jeffery, I'd like to offer a suggestion about why "people feel compelled to do that ("include or refer to religious statements") when they don't have to."

Religion is a living, vitalizing, very real, deep and life-changing experience for some people and becomes every bit a part of their lives and who they are. When anything becomes part of a person's life, their use of words will reflect that. It's more subconscious than intentional.

If a comment to the posting of a photo carried more lengthy scripture passages and/or exhortations about one faith over another or ideology or theological dogma in relation to the photo, that would more likely be intentional and "compelled." I don't think I've seen anything like that on NPN since 2006, when I joined.

Does that help a little with your curiosity?

As I marvel at this wonderful world we all live in it's nice to know there are other folk out there who have seen the bigger picture, they are almost 'family' to me.

I think a person's religion is so central to who they are that of course it will influence all they do, including their art. I think it was Mozart who wrote on each of his manuscripts, "For the Glory of God." His works were better for it IMO. As for, "This is a secular forum," and the general idea that we shouldn't include glimpses of our very soul from time to time, I say who made you God, LOL? I have little tolerance for people with little tolerance. Anyone who is genuinely offended by a verse in a sig line might consider taking a chill pill. How do I change my sig line? The train one has been on there for a long time now. Heck, the Bible even starts with mention of The Light. Genesis 1:4. Maybe proof God made the earth for photographers?


Kent in SD

Why do people feel compelled to do that when they don't have to?

Jeffrey, I think you deserve a straight answer to your question. I feel compelled simply because I choose to believe that what I have on this earth is given to me by God (including the ability to shoot an image or write a forum post), and I just want to acknowledge and thank Him for it, and in doing so it identifies what I'm about. Others choose not to believe God, but have other beliefs and opinions, and so they put quotes in signatures relating to their interests and beliefs, and that's just dandy. In the same thought, why do people feel compelled to use foul language in the forums when they don't have to? I don't fancy curse words, but I've never preached at anyone about it, and I certainly don't get "offended". This IS a very friendly, mature site, yet it seems odd that someone who would want to thank God for a beautiful sunrise would get fussed at. ANYWAY, there's an answer, and it's OK to disagree!

I may change my mind. A test of "tolerance" to see if it's a two way street.

LOL! Hey Ron, not to stick a wrench in your idea, but you're not actually being tolerant!

(yes, I'm just ribbin' ya...)

For many, being out along a trickling stream in the peace and beauty of a quiet morning, or in the midst of the ferocity of a waterfall or possibly a wild animal, is a "spiritual" experience--it feels that way to me. Is that "religious"? I don't know. But I'm not offended by anyone who feels it is, nor anyone who insists it isn't. Chris C. put it well, as did Lon and others.

Jeffrey, I would just thank God (or Bhudda, or whoever or whatever you'd like) that by starting this topic, you didnt end up with dozens of people calling you vile names and sending you hate email, which is what happens on most of the other internet sites/forums i've seen whenever anything remotely controversial gets brought up.
Personally, I find it much more annoying and offensive when the Almighty and prayers get all the credit for saving the lone survivor of a plane crash (or fill in your favorite 'miracle')--as if the other 349 were all unworthy sinners...
Sorry...i had to sneak that one in there

I'm with Mozart!
Although open discussion should be avoided in this forum, a signature or single statement is fine with me.
I read through every response in this chain. I appreciate each members frank & honest statements, a revealing expose' (exposure or a revelation of something discreditable).

I'm tolerant of all faiths, of anyone who seeks the truth. With Christianity in particular, I can find nothing to discredit, simply a matter of faith (belief in things not seen).
My View? Think of it as taking out an insurance policy. If you're wrong, well you've heard how it goes..
If you're right?? Put yourself into the grandest nature scene you could ever imagine, Ad infinitum.

Put yourself into the grandest nature scene you could ever imagine, Ad infinitum

Could i at least change it, say once a month?? Cause id get awefully tired looking at that same stinkin mountain week after week...and the elk would start to smell.

Ditto to Paul D.'s comments. When sitting on a mountain peak at sunrise, waiting for the perfect moment to shoot, I am struck by the notion that our glorious world could not have been some cosmic accident that happened by chance and without design. I certainly tolerate others' views on this matter. We were all given free will to choose our course in life.

Why are we even having this discussion? This is a photography forum, and now we're debating religion. Let people put what they want in their signatures as long as it's PG rated. I have a strong opinion on the subject, but this is just not the place.

Doug, I agree. I would like to give everyone an opportunity to respond but at some point this one needs to be put to rest.

I think Chris Chamberlain summed up my feelings almost perfectly. I too am a Christian, and I see not only nature, but everything in life through those eyes. For me, my beliefs are personal, but I'm certainly not offended by those (regardless of their faith or lack thereof) who chose to display their beliefs in their signature line. To each his own.

I wonder if I came up with a really catchy signature line would my photos be better?

For the record, I could not care less what's in your signature lines if your participation improves the quality of the discourse on photography.

Perhaps this topic and comments should be sent to all members of congress as an example of how topics should be discussed, without name calling, mean and spiteful comments or hateful responses. Even though it is an area outside of the main focus of NPN it does IMHO show maturity of those taking part.

I just noticed this thread so I'm a little late to the party. I just want to reiterate what others have noted. The civility and respect demonstrated on this forum should be a model for all. Hell (whoops hope that's not too religious), we should be running Congress (whoops hope that's not too political).

I think Sandy's post is great particularly this quote from Sir Ansel, "No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and to build confidence in the creative spirit”

I'll leave it at that

Hear, hear, Sandy!

God, by whatever name you choose to call him/her/it, is great. God is after all, well, "God". But religion is the creation of man. More harm has been done in the name of religion throughout the ages than for any other reason. Just read your history or open the paper today. So let's stick with God alone which I think is what we nature photographers truly are rejoicing in. The wonder, magic, glory of what we see that happens all by itself without any help from "man".
JR

Thanks to all for your participation in this thread. I think the point was worth raising and that we covered it well.

Someone recently posted a photo of DEVILS Tower. I was quite offended.