I know there's a reflection of a house and water is too green, but what I'm wondering is whether it's possible to get an image with two things in focus that are several yards apart (here the leaves and the gator). This was f/8.0, which is the highest setting I have, but with the proper settings could that be done? Thank you!
Posted by Buck Ward on October 14, 2010 at 5:41 PM
Barbara.
Focal length is a factor. To shoot a scene like this with a telephoto lens, the leaves generally need to be closer to the gator than they are to you. It's easier to get full depth of field with a normal to wide angle lens, but to get the same perspective, the gator must be fairly close to you.
The bottom line answer to your question: Yes it is possible, but it might not be easy.
Posted by Keith Bauer on October 14, 2010 at 5:45 PM
DOF is a function of aperture, focal length and subject distance from the camera. The quick answer to your question is yes, but without knowing more details about focal length and subject distance I can't say for sure. All other things being equal, longer lenses have a shallower DOF at a given distance and aperture than a shorter lens. It would be possible to get the leaves in focus, and the gator, but I don't know if if would be the image you have in your head.
Posted by Ramamohan Pai on October 14, 2010 at 5:58 PM
Barbara, If you are referring to this specific scene, and taking into account your use of F/8 (narrowest aperture in your camera), its unlikely that anything would bring the leaves into focus (for telephoto focal lengths).
If you used wide angles it might be possible but its likely that the perspective will be different and people may really need to search for the Gator in the photo.
The only thing that could do that for you here is focus stacking.
If you could find a situation with the foliage a fair bit closer to the gator, it would sure be easier with your current setup. Same would be true with almost any lens, as a matter of fact.
Posted by Lon Overacker on October 14, 2010 at 7:28 PM
Barbara,
You've already received some good and accurate information regarding DOF, focal lengths, etc. etc. It could even be done with a large format lens where some lenses could stop down to f/128!!! (never mind quality and shutter speed consequences....)
But let me take a completely different route and get you to think about something. Why, in this specific example, do you want to have BOTH the leaves and the gator sharp? There are of course equipment combos, techniques and things to obtain great depth of field, but it's not always the case that we actually want everything in focus front to back.
Now don't get me wrong, more in-focus leaves may be a good thing here. But IMHO, the OOF leaves work quite well in framing the gator AND by telling the viewer that the gator IS the main subject matter of your image. If the leaves were completely sharp, I'm guessing that my eye would flip back and forth between the foliage and the critter.
As you've captured, I get the feeling like you were stalking this guy with your camera.... and you found just the right opening.... for me, this has nothing to do with pretty, green leaves.
Now others may have a different opinion, but I guess I'm just trying to say that learning to recognize what you want to accomplish with your image at the time of capture will go a long ways in helping you decide what kind of equipment and settings you may need to accomplish that.
Lon
Posted by Gary Yeoh on October 14, 2010 at 8:55 PM
Barbara:
From a strictly technical viewpoint (leaving out compositional considerations) a tilt shift lens would be able to do what you want.
Posted by Lon Overacker on October 14, 2010 at 10:02 PM
I will have to respectfully and partially disagree with Gary. Yes, a lens setup that contains "tilt" where you can alter or tilt the plane of focus, can obtain sharp focus on a near and far object at the same time.
However, in this example, if Barbara wanted all the leaves sharp, top and bottom, and the gator in focus a tilt lens will not accomplish this. Without getting to long winded, you can tilt a lens and get the bottom set of leaves and the gator in focus, but you can NOT get the top leaves in sharp focus. the reason is because they are on two different "planes of focus." One plane covers the bottom set of leaves and the background, the gator and a different plane of focus encompasses the top set of leaves and the gator. Both can not exist in a singe image - UNLESS of course you apply digital focus stacking blending as has already been mentioned.
Don't mean to be too technical, just wanted to point out that a T/S lens will NOT address Barbara's question for this specific example.
Now.. that might sound silly, but there's a lesson in there somewhere. I don't know what the focal length of a typical phone camera is, but I bet it's somewhere on the order of 3mm. But since the sensor is so small the field of view is similar to a 40mm lens, but the depth of field is going to be the same as any 3mm lens: ie. very big. The lesson to be learned here, is that small sensor cameras actually do have an advantage in some situations, of course you sacrifice image quality.
The alternative approach is to take multiple exposures on a tripod at different focus settings and blend them together using software like CS5 or Helicon Focus. That's a lot more involved, and prone to problems..
Posted by Dan Borzynski on October 15, 2010 at 12:55 AM
Let;s simplify the DOF issue here a bit. DOF can be thought of as having exactly two components: f-stop and magnification, nothing else.
Lens focal length plays a role here - a wide angle lens has more DOF because the magnification is less, but an image shot at 1/10 life size will have exactly the same DOF if shot a f8 regardless if it was shot with a 12 mm lens or a 1200 mm lens. The perspective will change but at the same fstop, the depth of field WILL REMAIN THE SAME.
To get the same magnification, the only way you are going to get more DOF is to stop down. f32 is probably going to be your starting point but even then, that may not be enough to get the leaves and the animal in focus. Those leaves are pretty close, though, so you will need to go far beyond f32, which is reaching severe loss of shutter speed. The result is that the image will be in focus but not sharp because of subject motion.
You can sort of solve the problem with using a wide angle lens, but then the alligator will be a lot smaller in the frame (less magnified) and less prominent. I am guessing that the reptile was a large part of the reason for the composition and a wide angle lens will distinctly change the perspective and hence composition.
Or you could go to a longer lens and
- shoot through the leaves and eliminate them altogether
- stand further back to keep the leaves in there for the same composition. But in this case, since everything has the same magnification it did previously and the fstop didn't change, the DOF will remain the same with the same result.
So to answer your question: Yes, you can get both in focus but you will need to change the composition so the end result has less magnnification and is a different image.
Posted by Varina Patel on October 15, 2010 at 8:30 AM
Barbara Graham says "I'm wondering is whether it's possible to get an image with two things in focus that are several yards apart."
and
Dan Borzynski says "You can sort of solve the problem with using a wide angle lens, but then the alligator will be a lot smaller in the frame (less magnified) and less prominent."
Dan is absolutely right, here... a wide angle lens will let you keep your foreground in focus, but it will make distant objects seem smaller. I just want to add that you'll need to calculate (or look up) your hyperfocal distance for the focal length you are using. That will give you the proper focal distance - and will tell you how far away from the foreground you can be and still get everything in the frame in focus.
Posted by Kent Staubus on October 15, 2010 at 10:42 AM
I was tempted to say I could do it with my 4x5, or posssibly a Nikon 90mm T/S but then saw how the image is on two planes. So, that wouldn't work. Software would be easier. Not sure I'd do it though, as it would look unnatural. The human eye couldn't focus like that.
Kent in SD
Posted by John W. Wall on October 18, 2010 at 3:23 PM
As others have alluded, you could easily do it by focus-stacking two images. You shoot the foreground leaves, you shoot the gator, then stack the two images. You could easily do a test in your own backyard and try a free download of Helicon Focus to try it out. It might look weird to have them both sharp, but stacking would do the job.
Discussion
12 repliesFocal length is a factor. To shoot a scene like this with a telephoto lens, the leaves generally need to be closer to the gator than they are to you. It's easier to get full depth of field with a normal to wide angle lens, but to get the same perspective, the gator must be fairly close to you.
The bottom line answer to your question: Yes it is possible, but it might not be easy.
If you used wide angles it might be possible but its likely that the perspective will be different and people may really need to search for the Gator in the photo.
The only thing that could do that for you here is focus stacking.
You've already received some good and accurate information regarding DOF, focal lengths, etc. etc. It could even be done with a large format lens where some lenses could stop down to f/128!!! (never mind quality and shutter speed consequences....)
But let me take a completely different route and get you to think about something. Why, in this specific example, do you want to have BOTH the leaves and the gator sharp? There are of course equipment combos, techniques and things to obtain great depth of field, but it's not always the case that we actually want everything in focus front to back.
Now don't get me wrong, more in-focus leaves may be a good thing here. But IMHO, the OOF leaves work quite well in framing the gator AND by telling the viewer that the gator IS the main subject matter of your image. If the leaves were completely sharp, I'm guessing that my eye would flip back and forth between the foliage and the critter.
As you've captured, I get the feeling like you were stalking this guy with your camera.... and you found just the right opening.... for me, this has nothing to do with pretty, green leaves.
Now others may have a different opinion, but I guess I'm just trying to say that learning to recognize what you want to accomplish with your image at the time of capture will go a long ways in helping you decide what kind of equipment and settings you may need to accomplish that.
Lon
From a strictly technical viewpoint (leaving out compositional considerations) a tilt shift lens would be able to do what you want.
However, in this example, if Barbara wanted all the leaves sharp, top and bottom, and the gator in focus a tilt lens will not accomplish this. Without getting to long winded, you can tilt a lens and get the bottom set of leaves and the gator in focus, but you can NOT get the top leaves in sharp focus. the reason is because they are on two different "planes of focus." One plane covers the bottom set of leaves and the background, the gator and a different plane of focus encompasses the top set of leaves and the gator. Both can not exist in a singe image - UNLESS of course you apply digital focus stacking blending as has already been mentioned.
Don't mean to be too technical, just wanted to point out that a T/S lens will NOT address Barbara's question for this specific example.
Lon
Now.. that might sound silly, but there's a lesson in there somewhere. I don't know what the focal length of a typical phone camera is, but I bet it's somewhere on the order of 3mm. But since the sensor is so small the field of view is similar to a 40mm lens, but the depth of field is going to be the same as any 3mm lens: ie. very big. The lesson to be learned here, is that small sensor cameras actually do have an advantage in some situations, of course you sacrifice image quality.
The alternative approach is to take multiple exposures on a tripod at different focus settings and blend them together using software like CS5 or Helicon Focus. That's a lot more involved, and prone to problems..
Lens focal length plays a role here - a wide angle lens has more DOF because the magnification is less, but an image shot at 1/10 life size will have exactly the same DOF if shot a f8 regardless if it was shot with a 12 mm lens or a 1200 mm lens. The perspective will change but at the same fstop, the depth of field WILL REMAIN THE SAME.
To get the same magnification, the only way you are going to get more DOF is to stop down. f32 is probably going to be your starting point but even then, that may not be enough to get the leaves and the animal in focus. Those leaves are pretty close, though, so you will need to go far beyond f32, which is reaching severe loss of shutter speed. The result is that the image will be in focus but not sharp because of subject motion.
You can sort of solve the problem with using a wide angle lens, but then the alligator will be a lot smaller in the frame (less magnified) and less prominent. I am guessing that the reptile was a large part of the reason for the composition and a wide angle lens will distinctly change the perspective and hence composition.
Or you could go to a longer lens and
- shoot through the leaves and eliminate them altogether
- stand further back to keep the leaves in there for the same composition. But in this case, since everything has the same magnification it did previously and the fstop didn't change, the DOF will remain the same with the same result.
So to answer your question: Yes, you can get both in focus but you will need to change the composition so the end result has less magnnification and is a different image.
and
Dan Borzynski says "You can sort of solve the problem with using a wide angle lens, but then the alligator will be a lot smaller in the frame (less magnified) and less prominent."
Dan is absolutely right, here... a wide angle lens will let you keep your foreground in focus, but it will make distant objects seem smaller. I just want to add that you'll need to calculate (or look up) your hyperfocal distance for the focal length you are using. That will give you the proper focal distance - and will tell you how far away from the foreground you can be and still get everything in the frame in focus.
Kent in SD