Posted by Ed Cordes on November 26, 2010 at 9:25 AM
Sounds like a good buy to me. The link you provided says it is sold out on line. If they have it in a store near you I would grab it if I were in the market. Good luck!
Posted by John Mumaw on November 26, 2010 at 9:26 AM
Aside from the fact that it isn't available at that site?
Two bits of advice....spend some quality time reading this in-depth review of the camera at DPReview, and don't buy the camera bundled with any peripheral items as shown at Best Buy. Bundled lenses in particular are rarely high quality enough to produce the best image from these cameras. An 18MP DSLR is only as good as the best lens you can afford to use. Sorta like putting Sears tires on a Ferrari.
FWIW, I think it's an excellent camera for the price ($700 at Amazon). They have a good summary of specs and user reviews there, as well. Best of luck!
Posted by Barbara Graham on November 26, 2010 at 10:28 AM
Thanks, Ed and John. John, I just read through that review, and the features and functions I know about seem good. I don't know anything about RAW yet, so I don't have any way to judge other than what they say, but what they say seems good.
I'm not so comfortable yet with the fact that DSLRs are so expensive yet people upgrade to higher quality cameras periodically. I know that having an entry-level DSLR will be better than having my PowerShot S5IS, but I also wonder if in a few months I'll be wishing for something more.
Posted by Richard Ditch on November 26, 2010 at 11:03 AM
I'm not so comfortable yet with the fact that DSLRs are so expensive yet people upgrade to higher quality cameras periodically. I know that having an entry-level DSLR will be better than having my PowerShot S5IS, but I also wonder if in a few months I'll be wishing for something more.
It will take you a long time to grow into any DSLR; this is a giant step up in what you can do and what your images can be. Don't worry about growing out of this camera before you even have it. Frankly I think a lot of people but better cameras when there is little need to upgrade. Upgrading makes sense when there are significant improvements in technology and features, but like the computers that cameras have become there is always a moving target that keeps the manufacturers and merchants happy.
My main camera is a Nikon D200: a 10MP camera that is at least two models in the past. And I still use the D70 I bought before I got the D200 even though it is just a 6MP camera with fewer features and slower performance than the D200.
Put your money and your worry into the optics. Get the Canon 400/5.6 for you interest in birds and marvel at what you can do with it. Or try a Sigma 50-500 - a lot of avian photographers on a budget have used this lens with good results.
Don't be put off by raw, either. It makes a tremendous difference in what you can do. Get the latest version of Photoshop Elements for $100 and you'll do fine.
Posted by Buck Ward on November 26, 2010 at 11:14 AM
The Rebel T2i is an excellent choice. I'm unsure about the lens. 55 to 250 is a great general purpose zoom range, but I know nothing about it's image quality. Generally speaking, the best lenses are going to cost more than the camera, especially for longer focal lengths. The 55 to 250, at about $220, may be a good starter lens for you.
If you are unable to get it at Best Buy, you can get all the same items as the Best Buy kit for just about the same cost from B&H Photo-Video, a reputable online vendor. If you don't need the shoulder bag, you can save 50 bucks.
Posted by Howard Cihak on November 26, 2010 at 12:23 PM
Barbara, I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here, and recommend that you compare the feature differences between the T1i and the T2i. Then, go and check out the cost of an EX condition T1i at www.keh.com and ask yourself if the T2i's new or better features justifies the cost difference. I know they wouldn't for me.
Keh will give you an EX condition camera that will be virtually impossible to tell that it has ever been used before, and they'll warranty it for 90 days. FWIW, nearly all my considerable pile of Canon gear is used, and much of it from Keh.
Posted by Carol Hyman on November 26, 2010 at 12:29 PM
Barbara, One other item that no one has mentioned. How does the camera feel in your hands? That coupled with reading all the reviews you can find will help a lot.
Also, check out the noise level tests for any camera you settle on.
Lots to think about.
Carol
Posted by Barbara Graham on November 26, 2010 at 12:41 PM
Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Howard, for your suggestion to check Keh. I looked at lens prices for new lenses, and I don't see how I'll be able to get a good new lens any time soon. I might be able to get a lens from Keh at some point. $700 or $800 for a camera is a big deal by itself. I do like the T2i, though. But instead of getting just the camera body I might get the one that comes with the EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens so at least I could start using it. I just don't know. I thought I was ready to make up my mind, but now I'm not sure.
Posted by John Mumaw on November 26, 2010 at 3:48 PM
" I thought I was ready to make up my mind, but now I'm not sure."
What limitations does your current camera impose on you that you think a DSLR would rectify?
Posted by Barbara Graham on November 26, 2010 at 4:04 PM
John, thanks for asking that question. The most immediate that affects me every day is the limitation of a 12X optical zoom. I have up to 48X with digital zoom, and up to 19X or even 24X sometimes produces a reasonable image, but beyond that an image at 100% size just is not good enough.
Secondarily I think would be to have the ability to shoot RAW. I know nothing about it, but it seems to be what I need to do to continue moving to higher levels of images.
Posted by John Mumaw on November 26, 2010 at 4:40 PM
It would take 2-3 (or more) lenses on a DSLR to replicate the existing 36-432mm lens that your camera possesses, at considerable expense. Forget you ever heard about 'digital zoom'. It's a very low quality shortcut to use.
Your camera has the capability to shoot RAW images, but it was disabled by Canon for some reason. You would need to download and install this firmware extension using these instructions in order to regain that feature.
Personally, I would keep your camera and work at mastering what it can achieve, and keep practicing. It's the person behind the lens that creates great images.
Posted by Barbara Graham on November 26, 2010 at 6:10 PM
The 36 - 432 mm equiv is optical, not digital? Or does it include digital?
Posted by Neven Dries on November 26, 2010 at 6:55 PM
Barbara,, I used a Canon Rebel XT for several years and loved that camera. My reason for upgrading to that from an advanced point and shoot was more control, not the zoom. You can get any length zoom you'd like to attach to the dslr, but not have one lens to do more than your current camera is capable of doing, DSLR's have NO digital zoom. Digital zoom is just a digital blowing up af a small area in the center of the lens and better done in good software. If your current camera does what you need as far as controling the picture, keep it, its a winner for you.
Posted by John Mumaw on November 26, 2010 at 7:06 PM
"The 36 - 432 mm equiv is optical, not digital? Or does it include digital?"
That's optical all right. A pretty massive zoom range, too!
Your digital zoom gives you a 48x zoom range but it is absolutely not worth using. You would be better served and achieve better results using the crop and interpolation (upsizing) function in your image editor.
Posted by Barbara Graham on November 26, 2010 at 8:29 PM
Okay, I didn't even know I could upsize images. I have PSE8, and I just tried Image Resizing for the first time. I am going to see what I can do with that. Thank you all again.
Posted by Richard Ditch on November 26, 2010 at 8:58 PM
Okay, I didn't even know I could upsize images. I have PSE8, and I just tried Image Resizing for the first time. I am going to see what I can do with that. Thank you all again.
Upsizing is not a substitute to having your subject fill the pixels you need. No upsizing software will ever be able to invent the fine detail that doesn't exist in a small pixel-count capture. Cropping and upsizing is not a substitute to getting as close to the subject as you need to fill the frame with the longest lens you have.
Stick to basics: Get close. Don't rely on cropping and upsizing if you want good image quality.
Posted by John Mumaw on November 26, 2010 at 9:10 PM
I didn't say that upsizing was a substitute for filling the frame. I said that upsizing was better than relying upon the digital zoom feature of her camera. Big difference there, Richard.
Posted by Richard Ditch on November 26, 2010 at 9:29 PM
I didn't say that upsizing was a substitute for filling the frame. I said that upsizing was better than relying upon the digital zoom feature of her camera. Big difference there, Richard.
And I didn't say that you did, John. I responded to Barbara's comment, not yours. Big difference.
Posted by Barbara Graham on November 26, 2010 at 10:34 PM
Thanks again, very much, to everyone who replied. I have more information than I did before your replies, and I'll use all that information as I try to decide what to do either now or not now. I appreciate you all.
Posted by Ed Cordes on November 27, 2010 at 9:39 AM
One thing not mentioned yet is IQ (Image Quality). Typically P&S cameras have tiny sensors. The T2i has a larger 1.6 crop (compared to full frame) sensor size. The larger the sensor the better the IQ - especially when considering the noise in shadows. Cropping an image from the Rebel will produce a much better image than that from a smaller sensor.
More food for thought.
Posted by Barbara Graham on November 27, 2010 at 3:42 PM
Ed, thank you for that comment. I momentarily forgot about that, but the sensor size and noise is a huge problem. I know this not only through research but through my own experience now. This is just a tiny bit of the info on this:
The ISO80 image gives great detail and colour but does show a little fringing on the border of the black square. ISO100 also proves a good result but looking at the image full size, a very slim amount of noise is starting to sharpen. Purple distortion is starting to show on ISO200 which may be down to the smaller sensor, but this also allows such great macro shots. ISO400 is where the fun starts as noise is definitely noticeable on the mid tones as well as the low key areas. The edges of the squares are also starting to distort whilst ISO800 simply amplifies the process even more. On a small image, the noise doesn't look too bad on ISO1600, but enlarging the image to actual size shows the destruction. Blue and purple pixels decay the colours and dark red pixels scatter over the petals.
The graph above shows the noise levels of the Canon S5 IS over the entire ISO range of the camera. Noise stays low under ISO 200, but above 200 it increases to alarming levels. Noise is readily apparent in full resolution images when the noise levels surpass 2 percent, and this occurs in S5 IS images at all ISO sensitivities above ISO 200. ISO 800 and 1600 are essentially unusable, unless you absolutely need to capture that low light shot and don’t mind if your subject appears to be caught in a blizzard or sand storm. The S5 has significantly worse noise than the Canon PowerShot G7 and the similar Panasonic Lumix FZ8 and Sony Cyber-Shot H7.
The tiny 1/2.5-in CCD produces good quality images at the minimum ISO setting, with good colour balance and dynamic range, but even at 100 IS0 there was some noise visible, and the 1600 ISO maximum setting was effectively useless. The lens generally performed well, producing little distortion at wide angle, but I was a bit surprised to see chromatic aberration and softness towards the edges of the frame.
The sensor is a 1/2.5” which translates to 5.76 x 4.29 mm. The ISO (gain) settings range from 80 to an ambitious 1600. As the following images indicate, (taken at 1/125s, f/5.6 and 14.5 mm) you should not expect to obtain reasonable-sized prints or do a lot of cropping with anything above ISO 200 – and maybe even that’s a little optimistic. I leave the camera set at ISO 80 so I don’t have to think about it.
-----------------------------------------
There is also a lot of info about chromatic aberration, fringes and halos.
To be clear, all the reviews said that the S5 was a really good camera, but with some specific problems.
Discussion
21 replieshttp://www.bestbuy.com/site/Canon+EOS+Rebel+T2i+18.0MP+Digital+SLR+Camera+with+8GB+Memory+Card%2C+Bag+and+Extra+Lens/9999142800050037.p?skuId=9999142800050037&productCategoryId=pcmcat180400050006&id=pcmprd142800050037
Two bits of advice....spend some quality time reading this in-depth review of the camera at DPReview, and don't buy the camera bundled with any peripheral items as shown at Best Buy. Bundled lenses in particular are rarely high quality enough to produce the best image from these cameras. An 18MP DSLR is only as good as the best lens you can afford to use. Sorta like putting Sears tires on a Ferrari.
FWIW, I think it's an excellent camera for the price ($700 at Amazon). They have a good summary of specs and user reviews there, as well. Best of luck!
I'm not so comfortable yet with the fact that DSLRs are so expensive yet people upgrade to higher quality cameras periodically. I know that having an entry-level DSLR will be better than having my PowerShot S5IS, but I also wonder if in a few months I'll be wishing for something more.
It will take you a long time to grow into any DSLR; this is a giant step up in what you can do and what your images can be. Don't worry about growing out of this camera before you even have it. Frankly I think a lot of people but better cameras when there is little need to upgrade. Upgrading makes sense when there are significant improvements in technology and features, but like the computers that cameras have become there is always a moving target that keeps the manufacturers and merchants happy.
My main camera is a Nikon D200: a 10MP camera that is at least two models in the past. And I still use the D70 I bought before I got the D200 even though it is just a 6MP camera with fewer features and slower performance than the D200.
Put your money and your worry into the optics. Get the Canon 400/5.6 for you interest in birds and marvel at what you can do with it. Or try a Sigma 50-500 - a lot of avian photographers on a budget have used this lens with good results.
Don't be put off by raw, either. It makes a tremendous difference in what you can do. Get the latest version of Photoshop Elements for $100 and you'll do fine.
If you are unable to get it at Best Buy, you can get all the same items as the Best Buy kit for just about the same cost from B&H Photo-Video, a reputable online vendor. If you don't need the shoulder bag, you can save 50 bucks.
Keh will give you an EX condition camera that will be virtually impossible to tell that it has ever been used before, and they'll warranty it for 90 days. FWIW, nearly all my considerable pile of Canon gear is used, and much of it from Keh.
Also, check out the noise level tests for any camera you settle on.
Lots to think about.
Carol
Secondarily I think would be to have the ability to shoot RAW. I know nothing about it, but it seems to be what I need to do to continue moving to higher levels of images.
Your camera has the capability to shoot RAW images, but it was disabled by Canon for some reason. You would need to download and install this firmware extension using these instructions in order to regain that feature.
Personally, I would keep your camera and work at mastering what it can achieve, and keep practicing. It's the person behind the lens that creates great images.
Your digital zoom gives you a 48x zoom range but it is absolutely not worth using. You would be better served and achieve better results using the crop and interpolation (upsizing) function in your image editor.
Upsizing is not a substitute to having your subject fill the pixels you need. No upsizing software will ever be able to invent the fine detail that doesn't exist in a small pixel-count capture. Cropping and upsizing is not a substitute to getting as close to the subject as you need to fill the frame with the longest lens you have.
Stick to basics: Get close. Don't rely on cropping and upsizing if you want good image quality.
And I didn't say that you did, John. I responded to Barbara's comment, not yours. Big difference.
More food for thought.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/S5IS/S5ISA.HTM
* Image noise visible at ISO 200 and above
* Noise suppression in shadows softens details
* Chromatic aberration
* No RAW mode
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Canon-Powershot-S5-IS-6685
The ISO80 image gives great detail and colour but does show a little fringing on the border of the black square. ISO100 also proves a good result but looking at the image full size, a very slim amount of noise is starting to sharpen. Purple distortion is starting to show on ISO200 which may be down to the smaller sensor, but this also allows such great macro shots. ISO400 is where the fun starts as noise is definitely noticeable on the mid tones as well as the low key areas. The edges of the squares are also starting to distort whilst ISO800 simply amplifies the process even more. On a small image, the noise doesn't look too bad on ISO1600, but enlarging the image to actual size shows the destruction. Blue and purple pixels decay the colours and dark red pixels scatter over the petals.
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-S5-Digital-Camera-Review-15596/Testing--Performance.htm
The graph above shows the noise levels of the Canon S5 IS over the entire ISO range of the camera. Noise stays low under ISO 200, but above 200 it increases to alarming levels. Noise is readily apparent in full resolution images when the noise levels surpass 2 percent, and this occurs in S5 IS images at all ISO sensitivities above ISO 200. ISO 800 and 1600 are essentially unusable, unless you absolutely need to capture that low light shot and don’t mind if your subject appears to be caught in a blizzard or sand storm. The S5 has significantly worse noise than the Canon PowerShot G7 and the similar Panasonic Lumix FZ8 and Sony Cyber-Shot H7.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/digital-cameras/review/2007/09/25/Canon-PowerShot-S5-IS/p3
The tiny 1/2.5-in CCD produces good quality images at the minimum ISO setting, with good colour balance and dynamic range, but even at 100 IS0 there was some noise visible, and the 1600 ISO maximum setting was effectively useless. The lens generally performed well, producing little distortion at wide angle, but I was a bit surprised to see chromatic aberration and softness towards the edges of the frame.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/Powershot%20S5.shtml
The sensor is a 1/2.5” which translates to 5.76 x 4.29 mm. The ISO (gain) settings range from 80 to an ambitious 1600. As the following images indicate, (taken at 1/125s, f/5.6 and 14.5 mm) you should not expect to obtain reasonable-sized prints or do a lot of cropping with anything above ISO 200 – and maybe even that’s a little optimistic. I leave the camera set at ISO 80 so I don’t have to think about it.
-----------------------------------------
There is also a lot of info about chromatic aberration, fringes and halos.
To be clear, all the reviews said that the S5 was a really good camera, but with some specific problems.