Fujifilm 6x17 Medium Format Camera(or other like it)

Hi everyone, I've been enjoying and studying Tom Mangelsen's book "The Natural World", and the more I look through it, the more I fall in love with that format of photography. I first discovered 6x17 work in Mangelsen's gallery in Denver, while on my very first trip to Yellowstone (where I discovered my passion for photography). I was amazed by his large, wall sized photos and vivid colors, and I've been interested in 6x17 ever since.

I've contemplated trying to find a 6x17 camera for a while now, but I think I'm finally ready to give it a shot. A local camera shop in the cities rents the Fujifilm GX617 camera and lenses, and I think it's the perfect opportunity to try out panoramic photography, and to see if I really want to invest the time and money into this format.

What I'm really interested to know is anyones experience with this format, the Fujifilm camera itself, or any advice for shooting, processing or buying the gear. I'm sure out of the hundreds of extremely talented and experienced photographers on this site, someone has tried shooting in this format before... Thanks so much for your help! and please excuse my total ignorance on the subject
(film was before my time )

Joe,

Panoramic photography also has a big draw with me. The 617 format in particular has something special and I can't put my finger on it. As you have looked into renting a set of these cameras, there is a serious investment in cash and not a lot of options or flexibility. I chose to avoid the immense outlay in cash and have since explored two options.

1) Pick up a large format camera like a 5x7 or 4x5 camera and a couple lenses and a 617 back converter. These conversion backs allow you to shoot 120 or 220 film on a large format camera. This gives you accessibility to multiple lenses (especially in the 5x7 format) and all the standard movements that come with using a large format field camera. Additionally, you can get an entire set for less than the expensive 617 cameras AND you can shoot regular large format film as well! If you go this route, the 5x7's give you more options due to lens coverage than the 4x5s. Check out Badger Graphic for options. I shoot with a ShenHao personally when I shoot 4x5 (not nearly enough).

2) Go Digital and stitch multiple images. This is by far the cheapest and "easiest" option but has two major caveats. First (and for me the big one) is moving subjects. IF you are stitching multiple frames together and things move while you move the camera then it gets weird. The perfect example is of a wave rolling in to a beach. When you rotate the camera to take multiple frames, the waves keep on moving and are in a different place in the second frame. No way to avoid this with multiple frames. Additionally, you have to add the stitching into your post processing workflow. With recent software advances this isn't as big a deal as it once was as Photoshop is pretty great and dedicated software options are even better and work on Auto like 90% of the time.

Joe, Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing the 617 cameras. They are just so specialized and so darn expensive I have a hard time justifying them. I personally would much rather add a large format camera to the mix, get a lot more flexibility for the fraction of the cost, and still be able to shoot "normal" photographs when a pano just isn't the right option.

Hope that helps!

Drew

Thanks for the detailed response Drew! I didn't know putting a converter on the back of a large format camera was possible, and I'll deffinitly look into that. As for digital stitching, I've tried it many times and although it can sometimes work, I never really get the effect I'm looking for because of rapidly changing light or moving subjects. One of my very favorite things about Mangelsen's panoramic work is the way he creates incredible photos of animals in their enviroment. Thats one of the main reasons why I want to get into panoramic work is the possibilities of creating unique wildlife images that incorporate the landscape around them, so stitching just dosen't work, and I would need something fast enough to capture wildlife. Not action shots, but I doubt I could get a moose in front of a mountain range to hold totally still for 30seconds...

Joe,

I agree that stitching has its limitations. If you want to capture that one decisive moment, then I would suggest looking at a 5x7 setup. Yes, 4x5 is easier to access for film but a true 617 format is wider than 4x5. To compensate, the roll back moves the film plane farther back than the normal sheet film so that the image is larger. However, this can cause problems with lens coverage in 2 ways. First, 4x5 lenses may not cover that entire area and second, the sides of the camera might block the coverage depending on the setup. It's not ideal. I can use my 150mm (~50mm in 35mm terms) just fine but my 90mm vignettes like crazy.

I just looked around on Badger again and realized that Shen Hao makes a camera dedicated to 617 for only $1600 plus lens. Badger also carries the Linhoff and Horseman cameras but you are looking at $4K for a Linhoff camera and another $3-4K for a lens or $8,000 for a Horseman Kit.

Is the Shen Hao going to have a bit of a learning curve? Definitely if you haven't used large format before. However, it will give you some really great images for a fraction of the cost. Take a look!

Drew

I would try buying a used 4x5 field camera (I too use the Shen Hao 4x5) and a used 617 back. The reason is you will be more likely to sell it eventually. Much bigger market. You can get the 617 effect by cropping strips from a regular 4x5 neg too.


Kent in SD

Some view camera manufacturers (like Shen Hao) make dedicated 6x17 cameras which are smaller and lighter than a 5x7. I often see them selling new on eBay for around $1500 (including the back). 4x5 cameras can be used with an extender but will be a little limited. 5" is about 12cm which falls short of the 17cm needed so the back should be held at a distance from the camera's rear standard to work. You will also need to make sure the lenses you pick are capable of covering the format.
Also, as far as I know all 6x17 backs use 120 film. I am not aware of any that can handle 220, though I may be wrong.

Guy

Guy--
I've not seen any 220 backs for 617 either. Maybe there is a problem with keeping the film flat as there is no paper backing on 220 (I think anyway.) I've been shooting 6x9 since last summer with my c.1937 Voigtlander Bessa. I get eight shots per 120 roll. I would assume you'd get four shots with a 617. I've found 120 film fairly cheap though, and there is a good supply. The Shen Hao 612 deal might do OK on resale, but I'm still thinking a used 4x5 field camera with a rollback would be most economical and be easier to resell.


Kent in SD

The Shen hao 617 is a good option providing the flexibility to use any large format lens that will cover the film and adding camera movements to modify the plane of focus. You'll definitely need to find out the coverage for lenses you'll be looking to use as many shorter lenses intended for 4X5 will not cover a ~180mm circle.

6X12 format can be accommodated on 4X5 cameras easily, but 6x17 will have some complications. You'll need an extension back on the camera, so you'll have to look for matching systems. That will kill your ability to use some wide angle lenses. Shen Hao makes such a back which would work on their camera and some others, but not my Tachihara or Calumet. 6x12, 6X9 and 6X7 rollfilm backs are somewhat common for 4X5 cameras and they can slide undet the ground glass like a normal sheet film holder. I see 6X9 most often. A 6X17 back could fit on a 5X7, but I've never seen such a back. If you like shooting color film, 5X7 is (unfortunately) a bad choice these days because the only color sheet film generally available is Portra 160NC and even that can be hard to get and its extremely expensive. If you want anything else you'll be looking at group buys of big orders custom cut. 8X10 makes for a very heavy field camera when its holders are considered and its going to act like a giant sail when the wind comes up. Plus I've never seen such a rollfilm back for 8X10 to 6X17. These are the reasons why dedicated 6X17 and 4X5 cameras are most popular with hikers/backpackers.

As for the fuji GX617, it looks like an awesome camera and I'd love to have one, but they do always seem to command a premium. The Linhoff 617 models are probably even nicer and even more expensive. The Fotoman 617 is a less expensive system worth considering, but the cones will definitely limit your choice of lenses and without a ground glass back, it would be a pain to verify focus. All three are more medium format like than the Shen Hao which is used like a large format view camera.

I have not been able to use a 617 system though I think I would enjoy it. I primarily use the 4X5 format, but also have used an RB67 and a fair bit of 35mm film. I can help more with film selection and scanning methodologies when you reach that point.

Mel-

I used a Fuji for a couple of years, and a couple of "telling" details of use are still fresh on my mind.

Count on buying at least one and preferably two "center spot" ND filter (expensive) due to light fall-off at the ends.

It's a very bulky camera, and I was always afraid of damaging it. I carried it in a padded pack a few times, but never felt like I had fully protected it. I finally ended up packing it into the field in its dedicated hard case with that inside a full-sized backpack. It worked, but it was far from convenient.

To the list of possibilities, I'd keep your eyes open for a 6x12 rollfilm back for a 4x5. I've got a couple, and though a little fiddly to learn to use, I found the convenience a great tradeoff against the extra 5cm of a dedicated 617. I can use the back as circumstances and opportunity dictate, while returning to "normal" 4x5 shooting in the interim. The 617 was so bulky, it was "all or nothing" taking that into the field.

One more possibility. I once found instructions for covering half the opening in a Fuji quick load holder using a piece of rigid black plastic and gaffers tape. I only got half a frame with each shot, but it was incredibly convenient.

Another possibility if you're loading your own film holders is to cut away half of a dark slide while still leaving enough rim for rigidity and light seal. You can insert that and shoot, then flip it and shoot again to expose the other half of the sheet. I made the slide, but never used it because I shot so little sheet film at the time.

Of course those aren't fully 6x17, they're incredibly easy and functional.

One of my very favorite things about Mangelsen's panoramic work is the way he creates incredible photos of animals in their enviroment. Thats one of the main reasons why I want to get into panoramic work is the possibilities of creating unique wildlife images that incorporate the landscape around them

Joe,

If it's really about wildlife in the landscape, then your format choice could be significant. While I would opt for a large format solution just for landscape images, large format might not be a good choice for wildlife. In those Mangelson images of say any of the brown bear, moose or bald eagle landscapes, those guys aren't going to sit still for you. Just having to set up a 4x5/LF system is enough that the bears will stroll right out of your frame.

Although bulky as Hank mentioned, a fixed camera like the Fuji 617 is much closer to click and shoot where the film is already loaded and you can react more quickly to a changing or unsuspected event.

Just something to think about.

Regardless of format though, you're still talking about film either way. Whole 'nuther subject. You might consider purchasing an inexpensive medium format camera (645, 6x7, twin lens reflex, etc.) and run some 120/220 film through it. You can have it scanned and you can at least get a feel for whether or not you would even like the whole process of film. buying, storying, developing, scanning and processing.....

Let us know what you decide on, if anything.

Lon

You can have it scanned and you can at least get a feel for whether or not you would even like the whole process of film. buying, storying, developing, scanning and processing.....

Aaaargh. Point well taken. It's definitely a gear shift. Now I remember why I shoot so little film these days!

Count on buying at least one and preferably two "center spot" ND filter (expensive) due to light fall-off at the ends.

Would scanning and vignetting correction be a good work around for that? How many stops are we talking?

As I recall they were available in 1-, 2-, and 3-stop gradations. I'm sure you could figure out how to work around it in post processing, but I can't guess how much work would be involved in doing it well. Folks that are facile with blended images could better judge, but I've always preferred to get things as close as possible at the time of capture. Yup, I'm one of those dinosaurs still using ND grads wherever possible rather than blending.

Of course, I'm approaching it from the standpoint of putting a dollar value on my time. It takes very little processing time to "pay for" a filter. Unless I'm being paid to do it, I hate to fritter away hours in front of a monitor adjusting images when I can do the same at capture.

No.

Many LF wide angles have a 3 stop center filter, which on slide film = unrecoverable loss in the edges and on color negative will result in unusable shadow details if not adjusted for in exposure. Even 2 stops on slide film is going to cause some problems even if you scan on a drum scanner. If the lens needs a center filter when used with a 180mm circle, then it needs it. You can make a choice not to use it, but you WILL have significant vignetting.

However, the OP has indicated that he would like to use the panoramic format with wildlife to me which means 300mm or longer lenses, thus no center filter.

And as Lon mentioned, it may also mean that the view camera style 617 is not the best choice either.

Okay, to clear up some loose ends.

Canham makes a 6x17 back that is compatible with any 5x7 with a Graflock style back. I believe the Tachihari 5x7 works with this back, but I have not verified that.

The Shen Hao 6x17 looks like a solid camera - I've have their 4x5 for several years have been happy with it. WIth a telephoto lens design (look at Nikon lenses) you can use a 360 mm lens on this camera. A 300 mm non-telephoto design will effective mean no movements on the camera. Telephotos react differently to movements and will take some getting used to. My hesitation with that body is a lack of an easy vertical composition. Vertical 6x17's compositions are pretty rare and in the art festival circuit, would draw attention. I have not used their roll film backs.

The Shen Hao 4x5 with an extension back is limited. You are more or less limited to lenses in the 90-180 mm range before mechanical vignetting sets in. You may be able to use a longer or shorter lens if you are will to crop down to 6x13 - 6x15 or so.

Since a 6x17 would pull from the middle of a lens' image circle, a center filter may not be as necessary as with a full 5x7 exposure. LIght falloff is going to be most noticeable with in the corners and with movements. The 6x17 back is going to be positioned inthe region least affected by light falloff. Testing should be done, though, just to be safe.

Thanks so much for the responses everyone! Theres so much awesome information in these posts that Im sure I'll have to reread them several times to get the most of out them. I'll deffinitly look into getting a view style 617, as this may be the best approach to start out. I've been practicing film photography with a Mamiya 645E and I love shooting landscapes this way! Ive found that I really slow down with film and think about what I'm doing, its great! I found a slightly used Fujifilm 617 with a 105mm lens at B+H for 4500, quite an investment, and I dont have that kind of money at the moment, but who knows, maybe after a winter of saving money, and marketing my work better I'll be able to swing it. Until then I'm deffinitly going to look further into a viewstyle 617. Thanks everyone!

so stitching just dosen't work, and I would need something fast enough to capture wildlife. Not action shots, but I doubt I could get a moose in front of a mountain range to hold totally still for 30seconds...

Sounds like you're pretty set on investing time and money in the film approach... but I just wanted to point out a few things.

Just to clarify, for stitching digital images, all you need is for the things on the edges to not move. That's actually not all that much to ask. The moose for example only needs to sit still for one exposure, and not cross the exposure boundary before you set up the next one - you may need to do some masking and manual blending to stitch them if things do move, but its not that hard. In practice, I doubt you'd be able to setup and expose a large format system faster than rattling off a 4 shot panorama with your existing digital camera, which means you're less likely to miss out on a unique opportunity. Especially with a Tilt/Shift lens. If you're clever with where you put the boundaries of your digital captures, it's actually pretty easy to avoid moving things.

Just want to throw that out there.. I've done panoramic wildlife photos before with no problem - see attached, I think it was 4 exposures blended. There's a duck in there too. Combining a relatively sharp/static duck with smooth water is again something you'd never pull off with a film system.

Thanks Floris! You brought up a valid point, and I think I'm going to start practicing my digital panorama technique as well. After all, that would be the least costly route, and I would be working with the format I'm most comfortable with. By the way, the attached image is lovely!

Joe,

Floris makes some great points. I have done a lot of stitching to create spherical panoramas and have gotten the hang of it over the past few years. I've even done some with some birds in them and a few with people.

Check out http://www.canopyintheclouds.com/home for some 360° examples including a several taken over 100' up a tree. In the "Additional Media" section there is even one with a Cow in it.

For an example with a bird, check out this post on my blog. It isn't the most exciting image but I've got multiple birds in the frame.

All of those examples are a minimum of 8 frames and most of them are HDR as well. Some of the Costa Rican images (including the Cow in the field) are 24 individual frames. It takes some patience and learning how to work fast but capturing animals in a stitched panorama is definitely possible.

Drew

If you are serious about it, there is a Fuji with a 300T lens (the longest avaialble) for sale right now on LFInfo forum. You wouldn't be able to see the for sale section for 30 days but many of us here are long time members there.